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Author Topic: New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"  (Read 4767 times)

goran

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« on: September 20, 2008, 07:35:19 am »

The new Epson R2880 profiles:

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support...type=highlights

(I have just tested the profiles for matte papers)

print blue-blacks somewhat too blue in my opinion.
(The old ones that came with the printer do not.)

You can see this also with the proof color setup (in Ps CS3).
They print just as they look with proof colors on.

What is wrong with me ?
(I suppose there is nothing wrong with the new profiles.)  

I use a Viewsonic P225f  21" CRT monitor with very good
monitor to print match.

Any comment.


/Goran Sweden
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madmanchan

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2008, 09:12:13 am »

I tried the R2880 Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte (a.k.a. Enhanced Matte) profile from the link you provided and did not find any such problems with the proof setup. On my display, I see no blue tint using both color and B&W print evaluation images.
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Eric Chan

goran

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2008, 09:27:08 am »

You can test the RGB-color (10,10,30)
with proof color setup.

1.)
Test with no proof color profil.

2.)
Test with the old proof color profil.

3.)
Test with the NEW proof color profil
(SPR2880 UprmMatte Photo).


Then my 3.) turns blue
But not 1.) and 2.)


/Goran Sweden
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madmanchan

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2008, 05:41:03 pm »

I thought we were talking about black, which is (0,0,0), as opposed to (10,10,30), which is actually blue.
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Eric Chan

goran

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2008, 06:28:11 am »

You may have to try a little bit of bluer black
(10,10,60) if your monitor is something like sRGB.
I use Adobe RGB but with gamma set to 1,5.

But still these profiles is turning blue-blacks too
blue in my opinion.

1.)
I have also tested Epsons new profiles for the R1900 with
the same effect.
2.)
But Red Rivers "Premium Matte Papers" profile for R2880
do not have this effect.
http://www.redrivercatalog.com/profiles/ep...c-profiles.html
3.)
And Moab "Lasal Photo Matte" profile for R2880 has just a
little little bit of this effect. Not at all that much as
Epson's new profiles.  
http://www.moabpaper.com/icc-profiles-current.aspx
4.)
I also tested Tecco:Print "PM230 Matt" profile for R2880
has just a little bit of this effect. Not at all that much
as Epson's new profiles.
http://www.tecco-print.de/index.php?id=150  

(You can find profiles for Epson R2880 here:
http://www.taospace.com/epson/)

/Goran Sweden
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Jonathan Wienke

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2008, 08:11:30 am »

How are you calibrating your monitor? If you aren't, you have no business critiquing printer profiles.

The new profiles have probably been redone to increase gamut in the darker tones, so that dark blues such as 10,10,20 actually print as dark blue instead of a neutral black/dark gray. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

And why on earth are you using a modified Adobe RGB with a 1.5 gamma???
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goran

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2008, 11:23:29 am »

Quote
How are you calibrating your monitor? If you aren't, you have no business critiquing printer profiles.

The new profiles have probably been redone to increase gamut in the darker tones, so that dark blues such as 10,10,20 actually print as dark blue instead of a neutral black/dark gray. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

And why on earth are you using a modified Adobe RGB with a 1.5 gamma???
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223010\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


As I use a CRT monitor (ViewSonic P225f 21") there is not much calibration to be done. I use Ps-CS3 but calibrate to gamma 2,5 with Ps7-Adobe-Gamma and the www.aim-dtp.net calibration chart.

My monitor (with Ps-CS3 proof colors on) match my prints exact. So there is no calibraion problems. The blue blacks are just as blue on the monitor (with proof colors on) as on the prints.

I think Gamma 1,5 works OK for me. Gamma was lower some years ago.  
Before "the PC boom". But I have always used PC.  

Still I do not "critiquing these printer profiles" I just wonder why.
(I want to lern not teach.)

The other 3 paper manufacturers (Red River Moab and Tecco:Print) seems to have the same thoughts about blue-blacks as I.

So the question is if there are the any other paper profiles like epson's.

If not why will Epson have the blue-blacks that blue.


/Goran Sweden
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eronald

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2008, 04:16:51 pm »

Message Anrew Rodney on this forum. I think he made  the -very good- Epson canned profiles.

Edmund

Quote
As I use a CRT monitor (ViewSonic P225f 21") there is not much calibration to be done. I use Ps-CS3 but calibrate to gamma 2,5 with Ps7-Adobe-Gamma and the www.aim-dtp.net calibration chart.

My monitor (with Ps-CS3 proof colors on) match my prints exact. So there is no calibraion problems. The blue blacks are just as blue on the monitor (with proof colors on) as on the prints.

I think Gamma 1,5 works OK for me. Gamma was lower some years ago. 
Before "the PC boom". But I have always used PC.  

Still I do not "critiquing these printer profiles" I just wonder why.
(I want to lern not teach.)

The other 3 paper manufacturers (Red River Moab and Tecco:Print) seems to have the same thoughts about blue-blacks as I.

So the question is if there are the any other paper profiles like epson's.

If not why will Epson have the blue-blacks that blue.
/Goran Sweden
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223039\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Schewe

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2008, 04:57:08 pm »

Quote
Message Anrew Rodney on this forum. I think he made  the -very good- Epson canned profiles.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223074\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Andrew only made profiles for Exhibition Fiber Paper...not the "canned" profiles. Those are made be either Epson US or JP depending on the printer and profile.

As to the OP's question, I seriously doubt the validity of the display profile. Hacking your video LUTs using Adobe Gamma is _NOT_ a calibrated and profiled display system...while you may be happy with the display, I wouldn't be. And that brings EVERYTHING you see on the display into question.
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Jonathan Wienke

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2008, 07:06:18 pm »

Quote
As I use a CRT monitor (ViewSonic P225f 21") there is not much calibration to be done. I use Ps-CS3 but calibrate to gamma 2,5 with Ps7-Adobe-Gamma and the www.aim-dtp.net calibration chart.

My monitor (with Ps-CS3 proof colors on) match my prints exact. So there is no calibraion problems. The blue blacks are just as blue on the monitor (with proof colors on) as on the prints.

I think Gamma 1,5 works OK for me. Gamma was lower some years ago. 
Before "the PC boom". But I have always used PC.

You are seriously ignorant of many of the basics of color management.

1. CRT monitors are the least reliable color devices. Not only do they have the most unit-to-unit variation, but they gradually change their color characteristics over time as the phosphors age.

2. You are NOT calibrating a monitor unless you measure the colors it produces with a hardware device, such as a colorimeter, or better yet, a spectrophotometer. If you believe otherwise, you are seriously deluding yourself.

3. The fact that one particular pair of monitor and printer profiles happen to give a good color match is meaningless. In a properly color-managed environment, ALL monitor and printer profile combinations will give good color match results. The fact that some profiles match and others don't is a giant red flag that you're doing something wrong.

4. Your usage of non-standard gamma values is ignorant and counter-productive. All current monitors have a native gamma in the vicinity of 2.2. Using display profile gamma values that deviate significantly from the display's native gamma increase the degree to which RGB values are manipulated when being converted from the working profile to the monitor profile. This increases the probability that the profile conversion (necessary for color managed display) will result in posterization and banding of the displayed image. Unless you have measured your display with a spectrophotometer or colorimeter and have found its gamma to deviate from the norm, use gamma 2.2 when calibrating, not 2.7. Using a modified-gamma 1.5 version of Adobe RGB as an editing space just makes the problem worse--the difference between editing profile gamma and monitor profile gamma is even greater. You're shooting yourself in the foot by doing this.
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madmanchan

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2008, 08:42:44 pm »

I think the issue here is your display setup. I am not seeing any of these issues on my display, which is a NEC 2690WuXi calibrated to D50, 100 cd/m2, gamma 2.2 and profiled using SpectraView II software and supplied colorimeter.
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Eric Chan

goran

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2008, 03:12:26 am »

Quote
You are seriously ignorant of many of the basics of color management.

1. CRT monitors are the least reliable color devices. Not only do they have the most unit-to-unit variation, but they gradually change their color characteristics over time as the phosphors age.

2. You are NOT calibrating a monitor unless you measure the colors it produces with a hardware device, such as a colorimeter, or better yet, a spectrophotometer. If you believe otherwise, you are seriously deluding yourself.

3. The fact that one particular pair of monitor and printer profiles happen to give a good color match is meaningless. In a properly color-managed environment, ALL monitor and printer profile combinations will give good color match results. The fact that some profiles match and others don't is a giant red flag that you're doing something wrong.

4. Your usage of non-standard gamma values is ignorant and counter-productive. All current monitors have a native gamma in the vicinity of 2.2. Using display profile gamma values that deviate significantly from the display's native gamma increase the degree to which RGB values are manipulated when being converted from the working profile to the monitor profile. This increases the probability that the profile conversion (necessary for color managed display) will result in posterization and banding of the displayed image. Unless you have measured your display with a spectrophotometer or colorimeter and have found its gamma to deviate from the norm, use gamma 2.2 when calibrating, not 2.7. Using a modified-gamma 1.5 version of Adobe RGB as an editing space just makes the problem worse--the difference between editing profile gamma and monitor profile gamma is even greater. You're shooting yourself in the foot by doing this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223109\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No this has nothing to do with my monitor.

a.)
I am speaking of the prints.

b.)
(My monitor match all profiles.)

c.)
But I think the cause is that these New Epson Profiles
have to be used with "black point compensation" together with
"relative colorimetric".

But I print from within Illustrator CS3. And there is no
"black point compensation" print-option in Illustrator (just in Ps-SC3).  

/Goran Sweden
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eronald

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 04:11:47 am »

Goran, Eric,

 Have a look at numbers on the profile, to check for the blue (PS palette with proof colors selected) . It might just show up on a CRT and not LCD, but if that's the case (improbable but possible) you'll see it in the softproof Photoshop numbers.


Hmmm, it's early in the morning for me - let me check that. I thought one might see the roundtrip numbers that way, but ...


Edmund
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 04:41:34 am by eronald »
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Doombrain

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New Epson R2880 Profiles "print blacks blue ?"
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2008, 03:12:07 pm »

I agree with the 1.5 gamma setting. This makes no sense at all and only serves to produce unwanted issues later down the workflow, regardless of what you think. aRGB is designed to work with 2.2 and 2.2 alone.

Quoting values you've lifted of the screen won't help anyone. I suggest you take a reading with something like iMatch and post the LAB values.
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