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Author Topic: TS lenses and APS vs FF - max image  (Read 3702 times)

mvandenbos

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TS lenses and APS vs FF - max image
« on: August 04, 2008, 09:29:33 am »

Hi guys

Thanks for your help on this one.

I'm thinking of acquiring a TS lense (nikon - possible the new 45).

Essentially wondering for a given three image stitch which sensor size  would give the highest amount of data for use in (ie use of a 12mp aps vs 12mp ff giving most megapixels in a 3 photo stitch) given the finite amount of movement possible for the lense/camera. Intuitively i thought the APS sensor would due its sensors greater resolution - but I'm new to this type of work and would appreciate corroboration of my thoughts.

With thanks

Mehdi
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Ray

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TS lenses and APS vs FF - max image
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 10:11:25 am »

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Hi guys

Thanks for your help on this one.

I'm thinking of acquiring a TS lense (nikon - possible the new 45).

Essentially wondering for a given three image stitch which sensor size  would give the highest amount of data for use in (ie use of a 12mp aps vs 12mp ff giving most megapixels in a 3 photo stitch) given the finite amount of movement possible for the lense/camera. Intuitively i thought the APS sensor would due its sensors greater resolution - but I'm new to this type of work and would appreciate corroboration of my thoughts.

With thanks

Mehdi
www.mehdivandenbos.com
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Well, I'm a Canon guy, but I think I appreciate your problem.  Using a TS lens on full frame gets you into the ineviatable poor performance of the lens at the edges. All lenses are poor at the edges, without exception. The only question is, how poor? Obviously some lenses are poorer than others.

A 12mp APS should give better results with a TS lens, at the edges, just as it does with any normal lens.
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mvandenbos

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TS lenses and APS vs FF - max image
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2008, 05:37:09 am »

Thanks for your response. Not quite what I meant.

Basically with TS movements there is a predefined amount of give from the lense 11 or 8mm or whatever it is ... so you have the midline image plus two images either side at a predefined distance ... since this distance is predefined there will be a corresponding fixed movement of "new image" onto the sensor plus the old overlap stuff. Hence my impression that for maximum area/megapixelage or whatever, the actual resolution of the sensor will (all other things being equal) define the best outcome and therefore a APS nikon sensor will garner more pixel data than a full frame nikon sensor (as both are 12mp).

Just want to know if my thoughts are correct or folly:

With thanks mehdi van den bos
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Ray

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TS lenses and APS vs FF - max image
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 06:26:42 am »

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Thanks for your response. Not quite what I meant.

Basically with TS movements there is a predefined amount of give from the lense 11 or 8mm or whatever it is ... so you have the midline image plus two images either side at a predefined distance ... since this distance is predefined there will be a corresponding fixed movement of "new image" onto the sensor plus the old overlap stuff. Hence my impression that for maximum area/megapixelage or whatever, the actual resolution of the sensor will (all other things being equal) define the best outcome and therefore a APS nikon sensor will garner more pixel data than a full frame nikon sensor (as both are 12mp).

Just want to know if my thoughts are correct or folly:

With thanks mehdi van den bos
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That is correct and it's basically the same situtation with any lens. The larger sensor will reach to the poorer regions of the lens image circle. With Canon T&S lenses there's a red mark on the shift scale which warns of unacceptable performance with FF 35mm when the lens is shifted beyond a certain degree. It's not advisable to use maximum shift with FF sensors.

However, with APS sensors those red warning marks don't apply.
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JeffKohn

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TS lenses and APS vs FF - max image
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 11:59:27 pm »

A 3-image stitch from a 12mp DX camera will give you more resolution in the final image than a 3-image stitch from a 12mp FX camera, because there will be less overlap between the images. So from a pure resolution point the DX camera wins out for stitching with a T/S lens. You also have the advantage of not using as much of the extreme edge of the image circle.

Also, at least one poster at DPReview has claimed that using shift for stitching does not work well on the D3, at least not with the 24 PC-E (the 45 may be better, I don't know).

I've used the 24 PC-E quite a bit for stitching, and also the 85 PC Micro. I just got my 45 PC-E today and look forward to trying it out this week.
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cecelia

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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2008, 11:57:10 am »

Jeff, Do you have an update on your new lens?  I sold my D300 and got a D3, but now I'm wondering if I should get a used D300 (or soon D90) for this very purpose?  (...plus for those times I want to carry something smaller...)

Thanks, Cecelia
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stever

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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2008, 03:15:56 pm »

if the fov and movement is similar to the Canon TS, then the maximum information is obtained with 5 verticals across on a crop-frame camera - this works particularly well when the subject is close

if the subject is reasonably distant, i think you're better off moving the camera - then you can stitch as many frames as you want
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stever

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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2008, 03:18:01 pm »

p.s. under no circumstances would i buy a TS lens for the primary purpose of stitching
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JeffKohn

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TS lenses and APS vs FF - max image
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2008, 01:08:30 am »

Quote
Jeff, Do you have an update on your new lens?  I sold my D300 and got a D3, but now I'm wondering if I should get a used D300 (or soon D90) for this very purpose?  (...plus for those times I want to carry something smaller...)

Thanks, Cecelia
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Sorry, I've been so busy with work this last week that I've barely touched the new lens so far, unfortunately. I can say that the shift knobs are a bit better than the 24 PC-E, and it seems to be more compatible with DX cameras. (I can't speak for the D40/D50 class bodies, but I tried then lens on my D300, D2x, and D70 and there were no clearance issues on any of them).

I'll try to report back with a bit more feedback a little later this week.
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cecelia

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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2008, 01:13:58 am »

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Sorry, I've been so busy with work this last week that I've barely touched the new lens so far, unfortunately. I can say that the shift knobs are a bit better than the 24 PC-E, and it seems to be more compatible with DX cameras. (I can't speak for the D40/D50 class bodies, but I tried then lens on my D300, D2x, and D70 and there were no clearance issues on any of them).

I'll try to report back with a bit more feedback a little later this week.
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Thanks - I'll look forward to hearing more as you learn.

-Cecelia
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JeffKohn

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TS lenses and APS vs FF - max image
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2008, 01:17:22 am »

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if the fov and movement is similar to the Canon TS, then the maximum information is obtained with 5 verticals across on a crop-frame camera - this works particularly well when the subject is close
I don't know about Canon T/S, but the Nikkors have about 11mm of shift. Even shooting vertical you don't need 5 shots; 3 shots will cover the full range of shift.

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if the subject is reasonably distant, i think you're better off moving the camera - then you can stitch as many frames as you want
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'Flat' stitches have a different look from panned stitches, and IMHO work better for some scenes. I uses my T/S lenses more for stitching than perspective control (although the latter certainly is useful at times).
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