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Author Topic: Major decision required  (Read 3312 times)

hobbsr

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Major decision required
« on: June 12, 2008, 03:05:24 am »

Hi All,

You would have seen over the past few months a few posts that are asking questions regarding MFDB's. I have struggle to get much support from the local suppliers to enable me to test the back options available.

By chance there has come available a Hasselblad H3D 31 mpx outfit with 80 lens. I spent an hour or so today testing and trying to compare to my D3 so that I had some form of reference by which to see the advantages of making a very large investment. After pixel peeping in Phocus, C1 (for the D3) files and Aperture I can clearly see the detail that the H3D can capture and of course the resolution advantage that it brings.

I now need to decide if I want to purchase as the opportunity will pass by the end of tomorrow! I have no real experience with MFDB and have tried to find any and all info on the H3D to compare and understand. Phase One with a reburb P30 was the other options but this would add about 8k more investment as I can get the H3D outfit for $AU13k.

Seeking any insights, advice and experience as this is a big investment and one I need to make the right call on. I am making this investment to offer a different type of IQ to my wedding and portrait clients and in the longer term be able to do some fine art prints and maybe start doing some more commercial work.

Thanks for any comments.

Rodney
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hobbsr

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Major decision required
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2008, 03:07:01 am »

I also noticed when looking at the preview images in Phocus that there is one very small white pixel on many of the images but when you zoom in and export I do not see this? Is this a hot pixel on the sensor? Should I be concerned about this if I purchase??

Thanks

Quote
Hi All,

You would have seen over the past few months a few posts that are asking questions regarding MFDB's. I have struggle to get much support from the local suppliers to enable me to test the back options available.

By chance there has come available a Hasselblad H3D 31 mpx outfit with 80 lens. I spent an hour or so today testing and trying to compare to my D3 so that I had some form of reference by which to see the advantages of making a very large investment. After pixel peeping in Phocus, C1 (for the D3) files and Aperture I can clearly see the detail that the H3D can capture and of course the resolution advantage that it brings.

I now need to decide if I want to purchase as the opportunity will pass by the end of tomorrow! I have no real experience with MFDB and have tried to find any and all info on the H3D to compare and understand. Phase One with a reburb P30 was the other options but this would add about 8k more investment as I can get the H3D outfit for $AU13k.

Seeking any insights, advice and experience as this is a big investment and one I need to make the right call on. I am making this investment to offer a different type of IQ to my wedding and portrait clients and in the longer term be able to do some fine art prints and maybe start doing some more commercial work.

Thanks for any comments.

Rodney
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jonstewart

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Major decision required
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2008, 03:25:14 am »

Have you factored in the cost of the lenses to your purchases?

P30 may be dearer, but the system could work out a lot cheaper when you consider the camera you can stick this on, and still give you similar / same final quality.
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thsinar

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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2008, 03:44:42 am »

hobbsr,

 I would not worry if you don't see this "white pixel" when zooming in or exporting. Previews are previews and meant to be accessed quickly without long SW calculations. In the case of a preview usually the sensor's own reference file (the file which corrects anomalies or and "puts the pixels at the same level") is not applied to the image, only when developing or exporting the image, to be faster.

I believe that somebody fro Hasselblad could confirm this.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I also noticed when looking at the preview images in Phocus that there is one very small white pixel on many of the images but when you zoom in and export I do not see this? Is this a hot pixel on the sensor? Should I be concerned about this if I purchase??

Thanks
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« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 03:45:18 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Dustbak

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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 04:37:50 am »

Thierry has a point there. The H lenses are signicificantly more expensive than the Mamiya lenses unless you need the 28mm.

Now having said that, I use the H system and am very satisfied with it. I use MF primary and fall back on 35mm when I cannot use MF.

Nobody can decide but you whether MF is your thing. It is a very different way of working. I actually really like it. I have to take more time, think it over more carefully what I am doing (and going to do). It is a slower work pace. The mere thought of using a machine that spits out 10fps gives me the shivers, I also need to sort all these images out and process them

BTW. There currently is a very attractive offer for the H3DII31. Actually an offer that is so cheap I feel sorry for the people that recently bought it for the regular price.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 04:41:17 am by Dustbak »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 12:18:41 pm »

Quote
Thierry has a point there. The H lenses are signicificantly more expensive than the Mamiya lenses unless you need the 28mm.

Now having said that, I use the H system and am very satisfied with it. I use MF primary and fall back on 35mm when I cannot use MF.

Nobody can decide but you whether MF is your thing. It is a very different way of working. I actually really like it. I have to take more time, think it over more carefully what I am doing (and going to do). It is a slower work pace. The mere thought of using a machine that spits out 10fps gives me the shivers, I also need to sort all these images out and process them

BTW. There currently is a very attractive offer for the H3DII31. Actually an offer that is so cheap I feel sorry for the people that recently bought it for the regular price.
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If the price of a medium format back and camera is what's tempting you, I strongly suggest waiting until price isn't the issue.

All of these cameras are workflows are very different and depending on what you shoot and the volume and deadlines you work under the wrong choice will cost you hundreds if not thousands of hours in lost time.

I am constantly amazed at the number of people I know that never really test a medium format back before buying and then once they buy it they suffer through the issues, usually thinking that all of the medium format backs are identical and they're not.

The result is once someone makes the wrong purchase, they usually just sell the back at a loss and go back to their Canons and that's an expensive lesson and probably not the right reaction.

I'm not pushing any brand and what works for me may not necessarily work for someone else, but if you don't have dealers in your area that will let you test multiple cameras, then fly/drive to someplace that does.

In testing I would suggest shooting the way you shoot your largest project, under as close to the exact conditions if possible, shoot a lot of files, under a lot of different light and then get the software and process the files as if you were on a deadline.

I know this seems like a lot of work and expense, but with medium format, even at mid level pricing, you can end up with a $50,000 investment very quickly and you don't want to try to e-bay 50 grand because of a mistake.

Also know that if you can't get a handle on the workflow you will begin to miss deadlines or find yourself working many late nights trying to catch up.  In other words don't risk your livelyhood because one camera is 25% less in price than the other.

I firmly belive medium format does need a new pricing structure, whether it's in financing, or lease payments, or just some discounted buy back plan if the cameras do not work as advertised and they obviously need to get their cameras in an arena where someone can test them properly.

Few dealers, even in the U.S. have every brand of medium format cameras on the shelf, so just testing brand A next to Brand B can be difficult, but once again worthwhile.

Even trade shows normally just have the cameras behind a counter where the only thing you can do is click a few frames.  Once again, don't test these in a store, test them in the exact conditions you shoot under.

Don't misunderstand me, I think there is a lot of value in shooting medium format and if you make the right selection it should be a system that will last you for a number of years.

Right now everyone is caught up in the new cameras and worried about dead end systems, but medium format cameras are historicaly very long lasting and since few people shoot thousands of frames a day there is always good cameras in the used market.

I'm also not pushing the Contax because of all it's attributes, it has some liabilities, but even a camera like the Contax that has been out of real production for a few years is available in every major and most minor markets.

If I was going to make a check list of what I need in a medium format camera it would cover a lot of territory, but workflow would be at the top of the list.

The second thing would be to get the phone number of every makers tech support line (if they have one) and call them with a question to see how they respond.  Ask them what happens if the back breaks, or if you drop it, how long is the repair, is there a loaner today, not in two weeks.

Also don't get caught up in the buy now syndrome, because just like buying a car, if they offer a deal today, they will probably offer it again.

JR
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 12:21:53 pm by James R Russell »
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Nick-T

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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 03:32:12 pm »

Quote
hobbsr,

 I would not worry if you don't see this "white pixel" when zooming in or exporting. Previews are previews and meant to be accessed quickly without long SW calculations. In the case of a preview usually the sensor's own reference file (the file which corrects anomalies or and "puts the pixels at the same level") is not applied to the image, only when developing or exporting the image, to be faster.

I believe that somebody fro Hasselblad could confirm this.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry is exactly right.
Nick-T
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hobbsr

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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2008, 06:59:43 am »

Hi All,

Thank you for the comments, to give you an update I went back today and have sorted two more lens to test with over the weekend if we get some sun. I no have the 100mm and 50-100mm zoom.

James has some very valid points about testing the system and I have been playing with the workflow side using the new Phocus and Aperture software. Phocus does seem to be very promising but it is great that there is native support in OS X 10.5 for the Hasselbald RAW files which enables Aperture 2 to work with them minus the lens correction features of Phocus. I am sure there might be a few other parts that Aperture does not benefit from but from a workflow side of things Aperture works really well with my D3 and M8 files so I can still have an integrated workflow.

It also seems that the lens are at a better price more on the US level than I first thought still higher than the Mamiya option. I am trying to get a reburb P30 back to test before making the final call but at this stage think that I am 95% there with the H3D system and the direction of the integrated H3 platform.

Still very interested in any more comments or experience to assist in this process.

Thanks

Rodney
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