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Author Topic: Phase One 645 - first impressions  (Read 14875 times)

Jost von Allmen

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« on: May 26, 2008, 06:07:11 pm »

I have been asked in another thread (Mamiya 645AFD and new Mamiya 75-150 lens compatibility) if I could give my fist hand impressions of the new Phase One 645 which I just tested for the weekend.
But as I didn't have the AFD II (nor a Hasselblad H2...) for comparison, don't expect too much. I also lack much experience with those two cameras.

I was able to use the Phase One 645 with the 28mm AF, 45mm AF, 80mm AF (old), 120mm Macro "D", 75-150mm AF "D" and 200mm AF.

As stated before (and on the Phas One and Mamiya homepages), there are the following improvements:

AF: reactive, relatively fast and very accurate, no hunting.
Speed and sensitivity certainly isn't up to that of my Nikon D3, which might have to do with the generally lower speed of the lenses, plus they don't have the AF motors built into the lens of course.
The possibility to choose from three different AF-sensors is not really of great value as they are placed extremely close to each other in the centre of the frame.

Shutter: Seems of improved durability, as the value added version gives you a warranty of either three years or for 300'000 shots!
The camera is ready for future lenses with leaf shutters, which might totally solve the still sometimes present problem of shutter vibrations, which can cause blurred images.
I did on several occasions have slightly blurred images although I have used the MLU on every shot from the tripod, and shutter release was then done with a cable release.
I find the MLU feature of extreme importance, at least with my P45+ and the high pixel density. Even the smallest errors in picture taking do decrease pixel quality (sharpness).
You can easily choose MLU on the main dial around the shutter release.
Shutter speeds go from 1/4000 to 30sec and bulb, sync is 1/125.
The longest exposures I happened to do this weekend was 2min (on bulb), no problems there with the P45+ of course. With my ALPA SWA I actually have been doing up to 45min exposures, without problems besides the fact that you really do need spare batteries.

Power: The back has seperate power from the body, which runs on 6 AA type batteries. You can officially use recharcheables and set a custom function for the type you're using. Not sure if that just improves the information precision for the remaining capacity or anything else. I did about 400 shots on one set of recharcheables, and they weren't emptied! No scientific test, I know.

Viewfinder seemed clear with good contrast, the screen still has some grain which is actually fine for the manual 120mm Macro lens: pops into focus nicely!
Viewfinder info is as usual, below the image and well readable.

The whole handling of the camera ist straightforward, I simply never had to read any manual besides the settings for the custom functions, which I did out of curiosity.
I was able to concentrate on my images from the first frame on, this is defenitely a photographers camera!
I was actually told by the rep that the camera is identical to the Mamiya AFD III and that the electronics have been redesigned and improved (whatever that means) by Phase One together with Mamiya. I had two lockups which were solved by quickly removing the battery pack. The rep had warned me about this and promised a firmware update: I certainly hope this won't take as long as the update to capture One 4!
On the other hand for a brand new camera it made a very stable impression, it's very solid and fits your hand nicely. The rubber they use on the grip is very "sticky".

I don't know if Phase One offers Capture One 4.1 with the camera as I already have it with my P45+ back. It works fast and the whole workflow fits my working style quite well.
The new corrections for CA do work really well: The 28mm was sort of a disappointment until I turned the correction feature on, which changed the files into very usable ones.... C1 4.1 currently has profiles for the Mamiya AF lenses 28mm, 35mm and 45mm. Updates for more lenses are promised as well.

When I returned the camera today, because of my very good first impressions, I ordered one right away!

I am now however also waiting for the new 45-90mm, which promises to be an excellent allround zoom. I fully expect it to be up to the very high optical standards of the 75-150mm, which for me was the big positive surprise on the lens side.

From the point of the optics, I'm a bit spoiled with my ALPA SWA, as I use the phenomenal Rodenstock HR 35mm, 60mm and 100mm as well as a Schneider Digitar 180mm. So although the Mamiya lenses probably aren't quite in the same optical league, they offer tremendous quality for the money.

For those who are interested, I have attached the comparison of the 28mm without and with CA  removed by C1 4.1 again, resized for web only of course.

[attachment=6795:attachment]
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 06:12:30 pm by Jost von Allmen »
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Jost von Allmen
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snickgrr

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2008, 06:17:42 pm »

Quote
The possibility to choose from three different AF-sensors is not really of great value as they are placed extremely close to each other in the centre of the frame.


[attachment=6795:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I was talking with the salesman who sold me my A75 a few days ago and we were talking about the AF system in the new Mamiya.  He said since the medium format manufacturers don't have the resources to R&D their own systems they buy off the shelf from existing 35 mm systems.  That is why the the three focus points are so close to one another.

That's a shame since I was really looking forward to a working multipoint AF system.
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eronald

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2008, 07:38:45 pm »

There are two highly positive points about the Mamiya:

- It is really easy how to figure out how to use it.
- It's the only MF body for which a couple of hundred dollars will buy you a used  latest-generation lens. One can fill a kit bag very nicely with a thousand dollars.

Edmund
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Lester

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2008, 08:11:43 pm »

I will second that....


Quote
There are two highly positive points about the Mamiya:

- It is really easy how to figure out how to use it.
- It's the only MF body for which a couple of hundred dollars will buy you a used  latest-generation lens. One can fill a kit bag very nicely with a thousand dollars.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 08:12:49 pm by Lester »
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elitegroup

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2008, 08:57:19 pm »

Quote
I will second that....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198190\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I will third that  

User friendly, faster AF, improved shutter lag and a very economical MF solution.

Once the leaf shutter lenses are released & reviewed I might drop a few quid on one of these babies  
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Snook

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2008, 01:31:35 pm »

Quote
I will third that   

User friendly, faster AF, improved shutter lag and a very economical MF solution.

Once the leaf shutter lenses are released & reviewed I might drop a few quid on one of these babies 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ditto!
Snook
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erick.boileau

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2008, 01:11:02 am »

which  bests lenses will you suggest ? from 35mm to 250mm ?

thank you
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Paul2660

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2008, 11:34:10 am »

Your mention of the firmware issue, currently on the AFDII, any firmware update has to be done by Mamiya.  Did Phase One mention if the firmware updates could be done by the owner, (like most of the rest of the cameras on the market currently) or if it would have to be sent in to a dealer for the upgrade.

Thanks
Paul C
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Paul2660

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 11:54:46 am »

Notes on the 28mm

I have used 2 so far. Both are show considerable softness in the corners on a P45+. My first one displayed the falloff in a very harsh way and Mamiya replaced it.  The first lens also had considerable CA, mainly in the blue color.

The replacement lens is also showing corner softness, but not as harsh and most times I can use the image with a slight crop.  CA seems to be better.  This is in the F8 to F11 range.  I have not tested it much past this.   The first lens had the worst softness in the lower left corner, the new lens seems to show in the upper left.  At first I though the P45+ sensor might be misaligned (have read much about that) but other lenses don't seem to display the same softness.

I have found that the Capture 4.1 presets which are supposed to also help on CA, seem to add considerable softness to the overall image.  Lightroom 1.4's CA fix seems to work better for me.  

I am working on getting some profiles to the author of PTlens for the 28 but can't get that done for a week or so.

Paul C
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Graham Mitchell

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 04:26:21 pm »

Quote
He said since the medium format manufacturers don't have the resources to R&D their own systems they buy off the shelf from existing 35 mm systems. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198157\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Someone needs to sign up ALL the MF camera makers to buy the same large multi-point AF sensor, and then make it. The combined numbers might make all the difference.
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rainer_v

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2008, 07:19:30 pm »

Quote
Notes on the 28mm

I have used 2 so far. Both are show considerable softness in the corners on a P45+. My first one displayed the falloff in a very harsh way and Mamiya replaced it.  The first lens also had considerable CA, mainly in the blue color.

The replacement lens is also showing corner softness, but not as harsh and most times I can use the image with a slight crop.  CA seems to be better.  This is in the F8 to F11 range.  I have not tested it much past this.   The first lens had the worst softness in the lower left corner, the new lens seems to show in the upper left.  At first I though the P45+ sensor might be misaligned (have read much about that) but other lenses don't seem to display the same softness.

I have found that the Capture 4.1 presets which are supposed to also help on CA, seem to add considerable softness to the overall image.  Lightroom 1.4's CA fix seems to work better for me. 

I am working on getting some profiles to the author of PTlens for the 28 but can't get that done for a week or so.

Paul C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199558\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

for me it seems to be incredible that camera manufactors decided to quit their qality control even with lenses in this pricy region. years ago it was the domain of sigma lenses and the reason why a lense which was made exactly in the same way have been so much cheaper by sigma/ schneider/mamiya  than by leica. leica claimed that they only used 10% of the lenses, the rest was badged withthe other brands ( 28-70 mm zoom was sold by sigma and by leica, 28pc by schneider and leica, several lenses by minlta and leica  ).
more and more nikon and canon did the same than formerly the cheap manufactors as sigma , even with their expensive lenses.  this resulted in the fact that you can check two lenses of the same type and both are performing 100% different. it seems to be cheaper to sell the lenses without checking them and it seems also that too less clients care about that and use what they get from their shops.
but this kind of ssues with so prof. and that expensive lenses as the mamiya 28?
shame over the manufactor. cant excuse this.
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karlpetersson

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2008, 12:39:49 pm »

Sorry if I am a complete moron here, but I have yet to find a price on this one.
Does anybody know how they will offer it as a pack, from phaseone with a phaseone back and from mamiya with a ZD back or will it be phaseone all around.
And does anyone know if it will be a 10000$ kit version as the Mamiya AFDZD pack that Mamiya offered, that would be a truly great way of getting my first MFD start.
Thanks for straightening me out in all my lack of knowledge.
Karl
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Paul2660

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2008, 02:31:14 pm »

If you go to the main Phase One site, they now offer the new "Phase One" body in a kit.  You get your pick of the back, 25+, 30+ and 45+, the 80mm (new metal barrel style) and the Phase One body.  I also saw single body pricing for just the body on one of the forums and as recall the body alone was 4300.00.  I believe that also has a shutter actuation warranty on it around 300K for 3 years.  

http://www.phaseone.com/camera/    Phase One camera solutions

Currently Mamiya's site US, only shows a single marketing page on the AFDIII.  No kit info etc.  They only show the AFDII in the kit with the ZD.  That I am sure will change as the AFDIII starts to ship.  

http://www.mamiya.com/products/default.asp?ID=49  Current ZD kit offer
http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-re...-645afdiii.html   AFDIII info


Paul C
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Roberto Chaves

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2008, 03:04:35 pm »

Quote
Someone needs to sign up ALL the MF camera makers to buy the same large multi-point AF sensor, and then make it. The combined numbers might make all the difference.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Or they could buy, say five, 35mm AF sensors and spread them out
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Snook

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2008, 09:24:54 pm »

Quote
If you go to the main Phase One site, they now offer the new "Phase One" body in a kit.  You get your pick of the back, 25+, 30+ and 45+, the 80mm (new metal barrel style) and the Phase One body.  I also saw single body pricing for just the body on one of the forums and as recall the body alone was 4300.00.  I believe that also has a shutter actuation warranty on it around 300K for 3 years. 

http://www.phaseone.com/camera/    Phase One camera solutions

Currently Mamiya's site US, only shows a single marketing page on the AFDIII.  No kit info etc.  They only show the AFDII in the kit with the ZD.  That I am sure will change as the AFDIII starts to ship. 

http://www.mamiya.com/products/default.asp?ID=49  Current ZD kit offer
http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-re...-645afdiii.html   AFDIII info
Paul C
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Sorry for the maybe dumb question, But Mamiya is going to come out with a AFDIII?
Or is it just going to be the Phase One body?
And If so, are the prices going to differ?
Or are you referring to the AFDIII being the PhaseOne Camera?
Thanks
Snook
No upgrading here until they come out with leaf shutter lens...
Until then it is the RZ and AFDII even with it's annoying shutter lag...:+}
Snook
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Mort54

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2008, 09:51:48 pm »

Quote
Sorry for the maybe dumb question, But Mamiya is going to come out with a AFDIII?
Or is it just going to be the Phase One body?
And If so, are the prices going to differ?
Or are you referring to the AFDIII being the PhaseOne Camera?
Based on what little information Mamiya and Phase One have released to date, the two bodies are apparently "identical", except that one will say Mamiya on the front, and one will say Phase One. But who really knows for sure, since the rollout of information has been, IMHO, pitiful. As a Mamiya AFD II/P45+ user, I feel I've paid for the right to bash them publicly :-)
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TMARK

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2008, 11:53:02 pm »

Quote
Sorry for the maybe dumb question, But Mamiya is going to come out with a AFDIII?
Or is it just going to be the Phase One body?
And If so, are the prices going to differ?
Or are you referring to the AFDIII being the PhaseOne Camera?
Thanks
Snook
No upgrading here until they come out with leaf shutter lens...
Until then it is the RZ and AFDII even with it's annoying shutter lag...:+}
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

From everything I've heard they are identical.  The only prices I could find online for the Mamiya AFDIII was from Harry's Pro Shop in Canada.  Body only is $3699 in Canadian dollars, which is now like 1:1 to the USD.  The "Value Pack" with the new 80 D lens and film back is $5599, while the 645ZD kit with ZD back and AFDIII and D Lens is $12999.00.  Again, all in Canadian dollars.  If these prices hold for the US, well, it better be good.  A Rollei Hy6 is supposed to sell for what, $7300 with the 80 F2 and the 645 back? Come on Phase, make an adapter!
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mcfoto

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2008, 12:27:44 am »

Hi
US pricing for Phase One camera plus backs.

http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/phase-one-645/

Denis
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TMARK

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2008, 12:38:03 am »

So $5k US for the body and lens in Phase One flavor.  Interesting.  If the shutter lag is substantially reduced I might bite!
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thsinar

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Phase One 645 - first impressions
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2008, 01:42:09 am »

hi TMARK,

Just to clarify some possible confusion:

The enduser price list from SBI USA says:

- Sinar Hy6 with 80mm = US$ 6'542.- with a 3-Year Warranty

The PO link provided by "mcfoto" says:

- "By itself the Phase One 645 and Phase One 80mm lens will be $4,990 with a classic warranty or $7,990 with a value added warranty".

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
A Rollei Hy6 is supposed to sell for what, $7300 with the 80 F2 and the 645 back? Come on Phase, make an adapter!

So $5k US for the body and lens in Phase One flavor. Interesting. If the shutter lag is substantially reduced I might bite!

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199807\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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