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Author Topic: New Epson Printers  (Read 152952 times)

mike_botelho

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« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2008, 02:43:46 pm »

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Too bad there is no Gloss Enhancer though....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198811\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As someone who owns a 3800 and an R1900, I can definitely say that the R1900 produces glossier prints than the 3800 without using the gloss optimizer.  The R1900's inkset is referred to as 'high-gloss' and I believe I just read the 7900/9900's inkset described as high-gloss.  Maybe this is how the K3 inkset is described as well, I don't recall, but if the new inks in the 7900/9900 have the gloss level of the R1900 inks, then bronzing will be non-existent and gloss differential will only occur in areas of pure white.  I never thought my 3800 prints had any bronzing until I printed out my first R1900, without glop.  From an angle they look a bit matte compared to the R1900 prints, though only really by comparison.  If the new inks have a similar high-gloss factor, the lack of glop won't be a factor for me, but then my works tend not to have any pure whites, and I prefer UV-protective laminates anyway.

Kind Regards,

Mike
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neil snape

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« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2008, 02:52:18 pm »

I don't have any prints from the 1900 yet.

I do though from the x100 series Canon and Epson K3 which neither is as good as the GE on the Z. If it isn't needed then that's good news. I'll love to see some prints from the high gloss to verify my prints on .
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mike_botelho

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« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2008, 03:05:45 pm »

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I don't have any prints from the 1900 yet.

I do though from the x100 series Canon and Epson K3 which neither is as good as the GE on the Z. If it isn't needed then that's good news. I'll love to see some prints from the high gloss to verify my prints on .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198822\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course, I have no idea on whether the new inkset will have the gloss level of the 1900's inkset.  But, after reading your post, I just went and compared 3 prints, one from the 3800, one from the 1900 with glop, one from the 1900 without glop.  The 3800 shows mild bronzing and dullness at an oblique angle in the proper light.  The 1900 prints, I can't tell any difference between them despite that one uses the glop and the other doesn't.  But, as I said, my work contains light shaded tones, but no pure white.

This is assuming of course that the 1900 printer isn't applying the glop even though I think I have it switched off.  I've only had the printer for a few days, but I have the gloss option unchecked in the drivers, and I haven't seen a drop in the glop level after my initial prints using it.  Though it did drop really fast just after doing just a couple of prints, so I'm pretty sure it would be obvious if I somehow didn't have it switched off properly.

Kind Regards,

Mike
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mike_botelho

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« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2008, 03:17:51 pm »

Another thought.  The R1900 is quite geared toward glossy printing.  I'm not sure if the high gloss level of the inkset would in any way be inappropriate for printing on matte surfaces, since I haven't used the printer for that.  If its a disadvantage in those instances, then I could certainly see the new inkset not adopting the gloss levels of the R1900 inkset.  In which case, of course, I would agree with those that wish the 7900 and 9900 had included a gloss cart.

Kind Regards,

Mike
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Nill Toulme

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« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2008, 03:27:36 pm »

That same Epson press release does mention "high gloss levels on water resistant prints."

Nill
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mike_botelho

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« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2008, 03:32:41 pm »

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That same Epson press release does mention "high gloss levels on water resistant prints."

Nill
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Yes, Nill, that's what I was referring to, and that's what made me wonder if what I'm seeing on the R1900 will carry over to the new printers.  I hadn't realized that the high-gloss comments about the R1900 represented a real-life difference until I printed out my own first R1900 prints.

Kind Regards,

Mike
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mike_botelho

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« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2008, 03:59:26 pm »

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Which suggests more a 3800 solution than a 11880 solution.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, with the carts adding up to eleven (PK,MK,LB,LLB,C,LC,M,LM,Y,O,G) and ten ink channels, it certainly has to be the same situation as with the 3800.  Maybe next gen will have a new print head and 12 channels with glop and no auto switching of blacks.  Though a yearly upgrade path for items this expensive and difficult to transport and move about is a little scary.

Kind Regards,

Mike
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Farmer

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« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2008, 05:23:09 pm »

Firstly, to Ernst - ColorBase is a free utility that has always been available since K3 for the Epson printers for customers who wanted to linearise and had their own spectro.

Some key features for the new Epsons:

Optional Spectro - you don't have to pay for it if you don't want it and it comes with both white and black backing plates (white is the ISO standard) and you can get with or without UV filter.  The accuracy of the spectro in terms of mechanical placement seems just fine and with a built in fan to speed up the process (optionally) it seems very functional.

Orange and Green - obviously extending the gamut (and Orange has already proved very useful on the R1900 and really seems useful as a "dark yellow" which has always been an issue.  The new LUT technology that is touted for the R1900 also applies here and gives some 18 million trillion (not a typo) colours in the LUT and more precision in how it chooses which combination of ink to use to both reduce bronzing and improve graininess etc.

High speed cutter.  Really, you have to see it :-)

Colour LCD display is nice.

Quieter and faster printing and for the proofing market in particular a new resolution mode of 1440x1440.  They've also turned around the previous 1440x720 mode to be 720x1440.

Powered roll feeder means never having paper spool up and hang down.  It also does away with a spindle (much easier to handle), instead using two plug-in style carriers that change from 2in to 3in core at the flick of a switch and with the powered roll feeder there's no need to worry about normal and high tension settings - all automatic.
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Phil Brown

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« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2008, 07:19:27 pm »

The Z series on Matt paper is a no go. Sorry I had one, and it was horrible. Yes it is quite nice on glossy paper but on matt paper the epson wins hand downs. That was one of the reasons I switched back to Epson, after havin a HP Z 3100 44in fpr 6 months.
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Christopher Hauser
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2008, 03:17:54 am »

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Firstly, to Ernst - ColorBase is a free utility that has always been available since K3 for the Epson printers for customers who wanted to linearise and had their own spectro.

Some key features for the new Epsons:

Optional Spectro - you don't have to pay for it if you don't want it and it comes with both white and black backing plates (white is the ISO standard) and you can get with or without UV filter.  The accuracy of the spectro in terms of mechanical placement seems just fine and with a built in fan to speed up the process (optionally) it seems very functional.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



I have been aware of ColorBase since it was introduced. My line referred to the Epson user comments that an Epson is calibrated at the factory and doesn't need calibration in time. That has been contradicted both by ColorBase and this Spectro feature. Just a small revenge on the usual Epson comment that thermoheads have inconsistent output and Epson piëzoheads not.

The Spectro specs are without question an improvement on what has been available so far in integrated spectrometers.

I'm a bit puzzled by the Green ink. The Epson gamut wasn't bad in Green so far and the R1800/R800 went for a Blue ink instead. Looks like a Pantone Hexachrome route to me without the name and again a more proof printer oriëntated switch to the gamut.


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« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 03:19:52 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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Farmer

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« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2008, 03:51:22 am »

Well, the piezo certainly drifts less (or less quickly might be a better way to put it), but like anything it's worth being able to calibrate and correct - no doubt about it.

As for green - yeah - the O and G looks like Hexachrome - not a bad thing.  Orange has been promoted for the skin tones and providing a "dark yellow".  Green is an important colour and one to which we're particularly sensitive - makes sense to strengthen that.

We all (should) know that gamut maps aren't the be all and end all, but this 10 colour inkset is looking to have much better gamut than the competing 12 colour inksets (and Epson's 8 colour set), particularly in the shadow areas.
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Phil Brown

Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2008, 05:25:30 am »

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As for green - yeah - the O and G looks like Hexachrome - not a bad thing.  Orange has been promoted for the skin tones and providing a "dark yellow".  Green is an important colour and one to which we're particularly sensitive - makes sense to strengthen that.

We all (should) know that gamut maps aren't the be all and end all, but this 10 colour inkset is looking to have much better gamut than the competing 12 colour inksets (and Epson's 8 colour set), particularly in the shadow areas.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Orange and Green has been the choice for the Epson head wide formats since the first Roland HiFi and the similar Mimaki and Mutoh models (Epson's first pigment ink in fact). Even then some commented that the green was good already in the 6 ink models while blue could be more improved. Sky blue should be easier to control with an extra blue in the mix. The R1800/R800 inkset with red and blue (and GE) proved to be very good for color prints. I tend to think that like the new Epson ecosolvent with its green and orange this is a more graphic market choice and the Spectro features have that same appeal.

The shadow areas on Epson's UC and K3 have been good already and are more likely related to the black generation in the media presets being less severe than in HP's media presets. It depends on how they are formulated right now (two extra hues to add in the separations) whether that is kept at the same level. Epson must know it is a forte in their printer's gamut, enough discussed here over the past year. A line in the 7900/9900 announcement mentions "excellent short term colour stability", could be the spectro related fan that dries the ink more quickly but I guess there's less ink needed in the mixing of colors. To be expected with the Orange and Green added but might stretch to more black generation as well. The HP Vivera pigment ink shows a similar short term colour settling. Again an important aspect for proof printing but nice for any other job's CM as well. There will be enough gamut discussions soon comparing the Epson latest K3 3 hue, HP 6 hue, Canon 6 hue and the new Epson 5 hue inkset.

[a href=\"http://www.print21online.com/supporters/epson/]http://www.print21online.com/supporters/epson/[/url]


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digitaldog

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« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2008, 06:24:53 am »

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Just a small revenge on the usual Epson comment that thermoheads have inconsistent output and Epson piëzoheads not.

You are making a lot of assumptions with that line of thought.

First, as someone who built the Exibition Fiber Paper profiles for Epson, doing so from a very large patch sample and a number of printers over the US, all operating correctly (head alignment etc), I can tell you all the models have very, very low deltaE values. These units are very, very consistent. The fact that so many Epson users find the canned profiles of excellent quality prove this point (least we forget the work of color geek Bill Atkinson years ago).

ColorBase is not a product supported or supplied in the US which may tell you how at least in this country, how its considered a necessary addition.

Revenge? No, but an option (yes option) that some users, especially those using many differing papers (from differing manufacturers who's consistency is unknown) is a nice feature. Again, its an OPTION. Its not required.
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abiggs

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« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2008, 07:21:31 am »

I cannot wait to hear from Epson USA, and when the anticipated ship date will be on these printers. I left Epson for the ability to switch black inks on the fly, and it is good to see that Epson is finally listening to their customers. I am just surprised that it took this long. I remember complainging about this 3 years ago.
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Andy Biggs
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2008, 08:42:25 am »

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You are making a lot of assumptions with that line of thought.

First, as someone who built the Exibition Fiber Paper profiles for Epson, doing so from a very large patch sample and a number of printers over the US, all operating correctly (head alignment etc), I can tell you all the models have very, very low deltaE values. These units are very, very consistent. The fact that so many Epson users find the canned profiles of excellent quality prove this point (least we forget the work of color geek Bill Atkinson years ago).

ColorBase is not a product supported or supplied in the US which may tell you how at least in this country, how its considered a necessary addition.

Revenge? No, but an option (yes option) that some users, especially those using many differing papers (from differing manufacturers who's consistency is unknown) is a nice feature. Again, its an OPTION. Its not required.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We have to go 18 months back when HP introduced the Z3100 with the integrated spectrometer and the comments then of Epson aficionados on the addition of a spectrometer to an inkjet printer.  Thermohead inconsistency was their argument. I have written then that we could wait for a similar spectro addition to an Epson wide format and their comments when that happens. It isn't my suggestion that the Epsons are inconsistent but the inconsistency of thermoheads has been exaggerated. I do not see any problem in my printshop related to Z3100 thermohead inconsistency and at the same time I like the ability to calibrate the printer to batches of new paper, third party papers plus custom profiling with APS. Something that will be possible too for Epson users now.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 08:43:21 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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keith_cooper

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« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2008, 09:37:02 am »

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We have to go 18 months back when HP introduced the Z3100 with the integrated spectrometer and the comments then of Epson aficionados on the addition of a spectrometer to an inkjet printer.

I also remember getting several reports of a built in spectro option before the 11880 was announced... obviously wasn't ready for use at that time ;-)
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neil snape

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« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2008, 10:00:36 am »

Recent Epson pro printers have proven to be quite consistent when new across the line. The way it should be.
It's not when the printers are new that there is a frequent need of calibration , but one that has been seen as necessary further on and also with environmental changes, more so media changes.
Many users have noted variations when production tolerances are best controlled.
Even though it is better to maintain a tight tolerance, it really is up to the user to determine their own tolerance levels. IF you print the same image a year later and the delta E is around +/- 2 it's probably not that important, to most that is.
Those printing for galleries though should be maintaining their printers with calibration and verification. So for them an on board spectro is very good thing.


This can be done manually, as it has been done in the past. An on board spectro is the most reliable error free way of maintaining calibration and verification.
It is an option that will make fine art and proofers very happy, but is not a strict requirement for people printing one offs. Fact is the inter printer differences would probably be unnoticed by most between print runs as well, hence Epson insisting it was not necessary. How they translate that in their marketing is absurd trying to say that because their Piezo heads don't need it is rather an strange way of justification. Yet Epson always say the new printer is the best etc etc , making the past best no longer valid.

I hope this makes sense and the only point that was made was one of Epson's marketing speak.
Nothing wrong with liking the product, certainly not the new propositions, it's best to competition  the marketing lines that are changing their tune just because they don't like healthy.
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rdonson

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« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2008, 10:01:39 am »

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First, as someone who built the Exibition Fiber Paper profiles for Epson, doing so from a very large patch sample and a number of printers over the US, all operating correctly (head alignment etc), I can tell you all the models have very, very low deltaE values. These units are very, very consistent. The fact that so many Epson users find the canned profiles of excellent quality prove this point (least we forget the work of color geek Bill Atkinson years ago).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andrew,

I don't argue that Epson's are quality printers.  I've owned some.

Every print for pay shop I know though also uses RIPs (Ergosoft, etc.) so that they can linearize their Epsons.  If Epsons are that stable and consistent why do they feel the need to linearize their printers?  Just curious.  Yes, these shops are fanatics about the output of their printers.

Again, not picking a fight.  Epson has clearly lead the way for a long time.  I'm just at the point where I think Canon, HP and Epson all offer top notch printers for fine art photographers.  From my perspective differences in output are becoming small and buying decisions are based features rather than big differences in the quality of prints.
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Ron

uaiomex

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« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2008, 01:40:25 pm »

How much ink will be wasted switching blacks with this shared head/channel. Any idea?

Ed
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Nill Toulme

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« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2008, 02:01:48 pm »

Maybe none at all... you don't waste any now "switching" from, say, red to yellow...

Oh but wait, I thought it would be just another channel.  Does it indeed share a head/channel?

Nill
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« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 02:02:52 pm by Nill Toulme »
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