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Author Topic: Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity  (Read 6271 times)

Jim Titschler

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« on: February 11, 2008, 03:05:10 pm »

I just completed a resolution test between my 1dmkll, 1dsmkll, and 1dsmklll. The same scene, same lens, same cropping, same camera settings, however the 1dsmklll exposure was at least a half a stop underexposed compared to the two other cameras. I photographed two separate scenes with the same result. Has anyone else noticed a difference in sensitivity? My other two cameras were the same.

Thanks,

Jim
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Jonathan Wienke

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2008, 03:59:08 pm »

Half a stop different with in-camera JPEGs or comparing RAWs? Comparing JPEG is meaningless; the tone curve chosen can make more than a half-stop difference.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 02:14:07 pm by Jonathan Wienke »
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Jim Titschler

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2008, 04:05:35 pm »

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Half a stop different with in-camera JPEGs or comparing RAWs? Comparing JPEG is meaningless; the tone curve chosen can make more than a half-stop difference.
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Raw
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Jonathan Wienke

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 04:13:47 pm »

The other factor to consider is that RAW converters have a parameter for exposure bias which is like a preset addition to the Exposure slider. This value is not always the same for every camera model. To verify this is not a factor in your comparison, check your RAWs with this program:

http://www.cryptobola.com/photobola/rawnalyze.htm

It can display a histogram of the actual RAW data with no processing whatsoever--no demosaic, no color space conversion, etc., just the actual RAW values. That will give you an accurate idea of how much of the difference is the RAW converter and how much is the camera. It will also help you learn the exact relationship between the camera histogram and the actual RAW data.
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Jim Titschler

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2008, 04:16:41 pm »

Quote
The other factor to consider is that RAW converters have a parameter for exposure bias which is like a preset addition to the Exposure slider. This value is not always the same for every camera model. To verify this is not a factor in your comparison, check your RAWs with this program:

http://www.cryptobola.com/photobola/rawnalyze.htm

It can display a histogram of the actual RAW data with no processing whatsoever--no demosaic, no color space conversion, etc., just the actual RAW values. That will give you an accurate idea of how much of the difference is the RAW converter and how much is the camera. It will also help you learn the exact relationship between the camera histogram and the actual RAW data.
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I'm using macs
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Jonathan Wienke

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2008, 04:20:15 pm »

If you wanted to post the RAWs somewhere, I would be willing to run them through Rawanalyze for you.
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Jim Titschler

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2008, 04:25:50 pm »

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If you wanted to post the RAWs somewhere, I would be willing to run them through Rawanalyze for you.
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Thanks for the offer, I have to run now but I will upload and send a link later.

Thanks,

Jim
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DarkPenguin

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2008, 04:30:01 pm »

I thought that the current canon cameras were actually hitting the ISO standard for exposure these days.   They used to be under rated.  (So ISO 100 would really be ISO 160 on an older canon camera.  On the newer ones ISO 100 is ISO 100.)
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John Sheehy

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2008, 04:45:26 pm »

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I thought that the current canon cameras were actually hitting the ISO standard for exposure these days.   They used to be under rated.  (So ISO 100 would really be ISO 160 on an older canon camera.  On the newer ones ISO 100 is ISO 100.)
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This is the metering.  The real RAW sensitivity is still another issue.  Cameras vary in how much highlight headroom they leave above middle grey in the metering (in the green channel, which is the reference channel), by anywhere from 2.2 to 4 stops in the samples I've seen, so in a sense, one could say that the actual saturation-based sensitivity varies about 1.8 stops, even given an accurate metering ISO.

The semantics get a bit stranger when you consider the fact that some cameras, like the Phase P45+ leave the full sensor DR in RAW files at all ISOs, so ISO 200 has a stop more highlights than ISO 100, 400 a stop more, etc.

What is still in a black box, really, even after many tests, is what the *absolute_signal* to noise ratio is at various ISOs.  That's why it is sometimes difficult to make statements about cameras' absolute SNR sensitivities; what you can measure from RAWs from a camera is more related to DR and SNR throught the RAW's DR, but what it relates to in the real world may be off a bit from what is assumed.  That's why I always suggest shooting the same scene, same FOV, same manual expsoure, in RAW, to compare cameras.  Nobody seems to want to follow a hard line to the truth, so we are left to speculate.

All this stuff should be in the camera specs.

It would really be nice if someone could come up with a planar light source, like a light table, with calibrated and totally diffuse intensity, to provide a real-world reference that cameras could shoot in isolation, with and without transparency wedges.
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Jim Titschler

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2008, 08:26:10 pm »

Quote from: John Sheehy,Feb 11 2008, 04:45 PM
That's why I always suggest shooting the same scene, same FOV, same manual expsoure, in RAW, to compare cameras.  Nobody seems to want to follow a hard line to the truth, so we are left to speculate.

That is exactly what I did, my test has nothing to do with metering or in camera histograms.
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Ray

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 05:14:41 am »

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That is exactly what I did, my test has nothing to do with metering or in camera histograms.
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You didn't make that clear. Your results just seem to confirm that Canon is now correctly stating ISO sensitivities. My 5D, for example, has a stated maximum ISO of 1600 and an H setting which is presumably ISO 3200. However, measurements at dpreview have indicated that ISO 1600 is really ISO 2000 and ISO 3200 is actually ISO 4000. Also, base ISO 100 is really ISO 125.
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Jonathan Wienke

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2008, 02:09:54 pm »

According to RawAnalyze, the 1Ds-III file is 2/3 of a stop below clipping, the 1Ds-II file is perfect ETTR, and the 1D file is 1/3 stop below clipping. All three images were shot at f/8, 1/125, ISO 100 with the same lens, according to EXIF. HTH.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 02:14:43 pm by Jonathan Wienke »
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Jim Titschler

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 12:38:32 pm »

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According to RawAnalyze, the 1Ds-III file is 2/3 of a stop below clipping, the 1Ds-II file is perfect ETTR, and the 1D file is 1/3 stop below clipping. All three images were shot at f/8, 1/125, ISO 100 with the same lens, according to EXIF. HTH.
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Jonathan, thanks for taking the time to analyze the raw files. Now I'm concerned, 2/3 of a stop is a bit of difference of sensitivity.

Now back to my original question. Has anyone else noticed a difference in sensitivity? I'm curious if the reduced sensitivity is inherent with the new sensors, or if I have a bum sensor?
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Chris Livsey

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 05:59:51 pm »

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Jonathan, thanks for taking the time to analyze the raw files. Now I'm concerned, 2/3 of a stop is a bit of difference of sensitivity.
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Am I correct in asking that, although the reproducibility of the lens, being the same at the same f stop is without question, the accuracy of the shutter speeds is not ? How reproducible is the speed in one camera and how variable is it between models ?  I realize 2/3rds of a stop is a big ask but the 1/3rd difference may not be.
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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 06:35:56 pm »

Thiesefiles were shot with the 5D (right) and the 1Ds3 with the same sutter speed and aperture, ISO 400, and the end result is just about the same exposure (RAW)

http://www.pbase.com/r_p/image/94450947/original
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Jim Titschler

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2008, 02:17:04 pm »

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Am I correct in asking that, although the reproducibility of the lens, being the same at the same f stop is without question, the accuracy of the shutter speeds is not ? How reproducible is the speed in one camera and how variable is it between models ?  I realize 2/3rds of a stop is a big ask but the 1/3rd difference may not be.
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With the test exposures being done with available light, your right it could be a shutter speed issue. Unfortunately I no longer have the other cameras, or I would repeat the test with flash. I do believe I have an electronic shutter tester somewhere from my large format days. If can find it I will definitely check the shutter speeds.
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nemophoto

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Canon 1ds mklll sensitivity
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2008, 08:32:01 pm »

Absolutely, the 1Ds Mark III (as well as the 1D3) both expose "darker" than the previous models. But those cameras were rated closer to 125. I had to "relearn" how to expose. Now, I expose closer to the way I did when I shot Fujichrome. If you want the same feel as the Mark II's, just rate the camera at 125. That aside, the Mark III's are the easiest files I've ever processed. I never thought 2-bits would make such a huge difference, but skin tones seem much more flawless.

Nemo
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