Worth moving to Mac?

[stewarthemley]

I want to say thanks again to everyone for a really useful discussion. My summary so far would be that both Mac and PC are getting better, both have irritating features and both are adequate for the work most of do.

At the moment, I'm drifting steadily towards a MacPro for the serious work at base and a smallish PC laptop for field work where I can use it tethered for checking shots (MFDB screens being as near useless as they are) and showing clients. I prefer this because I can get the power I need at a much smaller size, meaning portability, with a PC laptop. And it's much cheaper.

This isn't a perfect solution: eg, can't see Adobe letting me use a Mac version of PS/LR on one machine and then a windows version on another, even if not at the same time, unless I pay twice. But for me I think it will work because I can use Flexcolor and other conversion/previewing options on either platform.

In terms of "cameraspeak" it strikes me that the Mac is an open system, ie, it can also run windows, but the PC is not. Interesting to know why Mac went that route.

[jjj]

In terms of "cameraspeak" it strikes me that the Mac is an open system, ie, it can also run windows, but the PC is not.

Actually I'd say it's completely the opposite, you can run Windows on any hardware you want. You can run Apple OS only on Apple hardware, which sounds pretty restrictive/closed to me. Not to mention stupid. So I have to use Apple hardware to use OSX. I think Apple hardware puts looks way above usability and even though I like things to look good, when it interferes with function, that very poor design.   At least with a desktop I can change the keyboard/mouse/screen, but with an Apple laptop, you're stuck with the poor ergonomics and very limited choice. They still don't make a non compromised small laptop, which is my requirement for a laptop. I have a 13" VAIO, good screen, good keyboard, DVD writer, all the connectors I need, powerful [the most powerful laptop at the time, at any size]. The current version comes works out $1200/£600 cheaper than the closest specced 15" MBP. Now if the Vaio was allowed to dual boot OSX, that would be my preferred Laptop.

Interesting to know why Mac went that route.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They had no choice, The chips Apple were using were woefully outdated. The laptops were G4s when the desktops were G5s. G5s being too hot to run in a laptop. AMD were making faster chips than Intel whose chips were faster than Motorola's [the ones used by Apple].
So after years and years of slagging off Intel in double page ads, suddenly, they were Apple's best friend. And as Apples were now PCs, Windows would run on them. They were mostly PCs before but with windows incompatible chips.
Though OSX will only work on Intel chips in a Mac as they have a key type thang to allow it to run.

[stewarthemley]

... Now if the Vaio was allowed to dual boot OSX, that would be my preferred Laptop.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's my point...it won't, but the Mac will dual boot so in that sense it's open, ie dual, whereas the PC is singular. But it's not a big thing either way.

Incidentally, I have enjoyed reading your posts and learnt quite a bit from them. Thanks! (Also think you've got some great stuff on your website.) I like that you're not a Mac sycophant but note you have still decided to get a Macpro (in another thread.) I take the same attitude towards equipment: I don't owe it anything, it's there to work for me and if it doesn't, I'll say so. But I do like the look of Macs.

[digitaldog]

Actually I'd say it's completely the opposite, you can run Windows on any hardware you want. You can run Apple OS only on Apple hardware, which sounds pretty restrictive/closed to me.

I think Apple hardware puts looks way above usability

Does anyone else see a conflict of logic here? You can run Windows AND OS X on a good looking designed Apple machine but, Apple puts looks above usability?

[john beardsworth]

This isn't a perfect solution: eg, can't see Adobe letting me use a Mac version of PS/LR on one machine and then a windows version on another, even if not at the same time, unless I pay twice. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As a point of fact, the Lightroom licence is cross platform. Hopefully Adobe will see the sense of doing so for Photoshop too - after all, how silly would it be a licence to let you run Photoshop on two Dells or two HPs but not on one of each?

John

[stewarthemley]

As a point of fact, the Lightroom licence is cross platform. Hopefully Adobe will see the sense of doing so for Photoshop too - after all, how silly would it be a licence to let you run Photoshop on two Dells or two HPs but not on one of each?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting thought that hadn't occured to me. I just assumed it would not be possible. So does that mean I CAN use LR on a Mac and (at a separate time) a PC? If so, and I dload the mac version from the Adobe site, I wonder what would be the process for registering it?

[John.Murray]

So after years and years of slagging off Intel in double page ads, suddenly, they were Apple's best friend. And as Apples were now PCs, Windows would run on them. They were mostly PCs before but with windows incompatible chips.
Though OSX will only work on Intel chips in a Mac as they have a key type thang to allow it to run.

I'm not sure criticizing a company for past ads is warranted, what were they supposed to do?  The fact remains that the current Mac Pro outperforms and has better specs *at this time* than any other machine.  A platform with a 1600MHz FSB and DDR2-800 RAM is *not* available anywhere else.

I'm a Windows Application developer, but even I can see that Apple clearly "gets it".  They know they are now competing on a commodity platform, available everywhere, and are producing a product with excellent build quality, and top notch performance.  Pricing?  Go config a system at Apple and Dell and see for yourself.

-John

[john beardsworth]

Interesting thought that hadn't occurred to me. I just assumed it would not be possible. So does that mean I CAN use LR on a Mac and (at a separate time) a PC? If so, and I dload the mac version from the Adobe site, I wonder what would be the process for registering it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172483\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do just that. Registration isn't by computer brand - you just download and install the versions you need.

Another thought. Though I didn't get it for this reason, I'm glad my main laptop is a Mac as it's the laptop that people see, not my PC desktops. It can fool some folk into thinking you're more creative than you are, and Maccies think you're one of them.

John

[digitaldog]

Hot off the press (ah web):

http://www.macworld.com/article/131949/200...proeight28.html

[Farmer]

A platform with a 1600MHz FSB and DDR2-800 RAM is *not* available anywhere else.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172485\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John - you may not have seen some of the recent releases, but there are a number of motherboard manufacturers producing 1600 FSB capable boards that take DDR2 and have been for some months.  You can even get DDR3 although we're at that interesting point where DDR3 is not always out performing DDR2.

[jjj]

That's my point...it won't, but the Mac will dual boot so in that sense it's open, ie dual, whereas the PC is singular. But it's not a big thing either way.

Only because Apple lock other machines out, an Apple is a PC BTW. It's the OS that's restrictive, not the hardware that's open, an important distiction. Apple are doing the controloing, therefore they are being restrictive. You have to look at who's preventing what. Dell wanted to sell, the Apple OS on their boxes, but Apple wouldn't let them.

Incidentally, I have enjoyed reading your posts and learnt quite a bit from them. Thanks! (Also think you've got some great stuff on your website.) I like that you're not a Mac sycophant but note you have still decided to get a Macpro (in another thread.) I take the same attitude towards equipment: I don't owe it anything, it's there to work for me and if it doesn't, I'll say so. But I do like the look of Macs.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They can look nice, but you can get nice looking PC boxes. I've got a lovely Aluminium case for my PC which predates the MacPro casing.  Macolytes [which obviously I'm not   ] can be a bit tedious, like any other fanboy. Computers are tools, just like Canons and Nikons are, to raise another rabid Fanboy area.

[jjj]

Does anyone else see a conflict of logic here? You can run Windows AND OS X on a good looking designed Apple machine but, Apple puts looks above usability?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm talking about physical interfaces like mice, keyboards, laptop design, where looking pretty comes above working well. Oh and having so few options/variations in things like keyboards/mice is a cheap cost cutting measure, which helps Apple have the best margins in the business.

[jjj]

I'm not sure criticizing a company for past ads is warranted, what were they supposed to do?

Not continually denigrate competitors as when they get into bed with them, they look like hypocrites!   . Apple have a history of slagging off competitors and not exactly sticking to the truth. They've been forced to withdraw ads in the UK, as they were telling porky pies [That's rhyming slang for lies, for the non Brits]. I dislike them for it and I know other people also hate their ads. I believe the Mac Vs PC ads were dropped here as the Mac character was seen as a smug prick and people preferred the PC.
Actually, the pair that got to play the parts here were best known for 'The Peep Show', a show about excruciating embarassingness [is that even a word?] where neither actors' character could be descibed as endearing. Very bad casting. Someone obviously heard they were hip and didn't look too hard as to why.  

The fact remains that the current Mac Pro outperforms and has better specs *at this time* than any other machine.  A platform with a 1600MHz FSB and DDR2-800 RAM is *not* available anywhere else.

The previous MacPro was also the fastest  PC ever tested in PCPro and then was equalled by a PC that cost less than half the price in the next issue. I refused to buy a MacPro until the recent update as they were not good value and well overdue an update. I saved  £1000/$2000+ by doing so.

I'm a Windows Application developer, but even I can see that Apple clearly "gets it".  They know they are now competing on a commodity platform, available everywhere, and are producing a product with excellent build quality, and top notch performance.  Pricing?  Go config a system at Apple and Dell and see for yourself.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172485\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If I was to comptete on price I wouldn't use Dell. Dell are always chosen as they are expensive as PCs go. And as I mentioned above a £4,3000 Mac was equalled by a £1,900 PC.
I'd hardly say available everywhere either.

[jjj]

Just thought I'd mention that I got fed up with overseeing the builders [house is being gutted, top to bottom] and went out and bought a shiny new MacPro.  
Just got to work out where to put the damn thing as  office occupies top floor and is still being rearranged after making more space. So MP may stay in it's [very large] box a little longer.

[digitaldog]

I'm talking about physical interfaces like mice, keyboards, laptop design, where looking pretty comes above working well. Oh and having so few options/variations in things like keyboards/mice is a cheap cost cutting measure, which helps Apple have the best margins in the business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172656\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly what USB or FireWire or SATA device are you referring to? There's nothing that forces you to use an Apple mouse instead of one made by Microsoft. You're stretching (again).

[digitaldog]

Not continually denigrate competitors as when they get into bed with them, they look like hypocrites!   .

They do a pretty good job of denigrating Microsoft (even though they sell a LOT of copies of Office).

Meanwhile, their market share (of actual computers) raises and raises. Seems like their marketing is working quite well thank you.

[jjj]

Exactly what USB or FireWire or SATA device are you referring to? There's nothing that forces you to use an Apple mouse instead of one made by Microsoft. You're stretching (again).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Did you not notice the phrase laptop design? You're stuck with whatever keyboard/trackpad/monitor is specced when you buy a laptop. Besides you completely missed the point, which was about ergonomics and beauty, not that the were no other options regarding say keyboards/mice....if you buy a tower and not a laptop.

They do a pretty good job of denigrating Microsoft.. .

and that's to be admired? Negative advertising tends to be used by those that have run out of ideas and appeals to the lowest common denominator of voter/purchaser. The Republicans are master of the negative spin. Drifting a little OT here though.
And they've been censured for their misleading ads in the UK. Maybe you can get away with more in the US.

... (even though they sell a LOT of copies of Office).

Funny and there's little ol' me think MS sold Office and Apple sold iWorks.

Meanwhile, their market share (of actual computers) raises and raises. Seems like their marketing is working quite well thank you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172710\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What from 3.5 to 4%?   Besides it's more that MS has fumbled with Vista, than Apple's ads, that may have increased Apple's market share.

[digitaldog]

Did you not notice the phrase laptop design? You're stuck with whatever keyboard/trackpad/monitor is specced when you buy a laptop.

Maybe you are. At this very moment, I'm typing on a full sized keyboard from my Macbook Pro. You simply plug in a USB device. I'm also using a Kensington Trackball on the same machine (and a 23" Cinema).

Are you suggesting that non Apple laptops have some provisions for removing the keyboards and putting something else in there? I think not.

Besides you completely missed the point, which was about ergonomics and beauty, not that the were no other options regarding say keyboards/mice....if you buy a tower and not a laptop.

Well unless I'm still misunderstanding you, I have both "beauty" and the ability to plug in any input device I want, as long as its' FireWire or USB (various flavors of each).

What from 3.5 to 4%?

Currently at 7.3%. But that's a HUGE increase in a few years. And its getting bigger all the time. The facts are that lots and lots of Windows users are switching and their market share continues to go up, not down like others.

http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/...r-iphone-up-33/

[jjj]

Maybe you are. At this very moment, I'm typing on a full sized keyboard from my Macbook Pro. You simply plug in a USB device. I'm also using a Kensington Trackball on the same machine (and a 23" Cinema).

I use a laptop as a laptop and a desktop as a desktop, so all the nonsense about plugging in other devices are of no relevence. I use my laptop as a self contained unit when travelling or sometimes sitting on my lap in lounge. Besides the keyboard is good enough not to have to plug in an external keyboard. The fact you are doing just that only reinforces my comments about Apple's poor ergonomics. I can use my 13" laptop keyboard quite happily and wouldn't bother with plugging in an external keyboard if I was to use it at home as a main machine.

Are you suggesting that non Apple laptops have some provisions for removing the keyboards and putting something else in there? I think not.

Whoosh, straight over your head, struggling with English again it seems, as I specifically said the oppositeNowhere did I imply or say you can swap laptop keyboards. Though now you mention it, in fact you could actually replace a Mac laptop keyboard with a Fingerworks keyboard, a company Apple now own. The gestures Mac trackpads are now implementing and the iPhone touch control, come from that very company.
Fingerworks
I'm hoping Apple use the whole concept as I really like gestures. They been in Opera for many years now.

 So to explain again - One of the factors when choosing my laptop was good monitor and good keyboard. As it was going to be a Windows laptop, I could chose the best out of a very large selection of different form factors and layouts. Whereas Apple assume bizarrely assumes everyone is identical. 'Think Different', surely one of the most ironic ad taglines ever? It so happened that the best of each was found on a single machine and in the size I wanted - a size Apple didn't even make.

Well unless I'm still misunderstanding you, I have both "beauty" and the ability to plug in any input device I want, as long as its' FireWire or USB (various flavors of each).

 Yup still missing the point completely. You shouldn't need to plug in an external device if it was designed better in the first place. Apple place beauty first, then ergonomics. Hardly form follows function. Apple used the same pokey keyboard on all sizes of its MBPs [a cost cutting measure], whereas say Sony design the keyboard to make maximum use of space for each size laptop.

Currently at 7.3%. But that's a HUGE increase in a few years. And its getting bigger all the time. The facts are that lots and lots of Windows users are switching and their market share continues to go up, not down like others.
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I was talking worldwide, not the US [a distinction that seems to escape most Americans, 'World' Series my arse!    ], Apple's share has always been a lot bigger in the US than elsewhere. Poor countries cannot afford expensive Macs.  In Oct 2007 it was nearly double the worldwide usage, 6.1 Vs 3.2.

This site has an alternative take on the dubious stats you quoted, unsurprisingly he's a Windows person, but one who welcomes Mac growth, so not a slavish fanboy.
[a href=\"http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2008/02/03/the-mac-s-market-share-is-not-7-57-percent-sorry.aspx]Mac market share[/url]

[digitaldog]

I use a laptop as a laptop and a desktop as a desktop, so all the nonsense about plugging in other devices are of no relevence.

You're proving you have no relevance. You bitch about Laptops (presumably Maclap tops) not having the ability to use certain devices which is nonsense, now you tell us that anyone who wishes to use such devices on their Mac's isn't relevant. Get your story straight. It just so happens that a Macbook Pro is a great business machine you can hook up to a larger display and keyboard (and other devices), then take on the road. Oh, running more than one or two OS's too! That you decided for us here that we should only use laptops for one use and desktops for another shows you're not willing to discuss this logically, you have a prejudices against Apple and just want to make what was a useful thread, another silly "Mac versus Windows" slug feast. No thinks, you've proven to me so far that there's no reason to continue talking to you as an adult about this subject.

I use my laptop as a self contained unit when travelling or sometimes sitting on my lap in lounge. Besides the keyboard is good enough not to have to plug in an external keyboard. The fact you are doing just that only reinforces my comments about Apple's poor ergonomics.

No, it only reinforces to me that you don't have a good idea how to use these tools. The Intel chip in this Macbook Pro is fast enough for Lightroom and Photoshop work indeed. But its still got a 15" display (I could go 17" but that's too large to haul around for me, but at least that's another option). I have the Macbook driving a 23" display which if you understand the math here, is considerably larger and for occasional image editing, easily calibrated and profiled. I also have no issues with the MacBook Pro keyboard on the road, but why NOT have a full sized keyboard? Its as easy as plugging in a USB device. And I have the Macbook taking up virtually no desk space since it fits VERTICALLY off to the side in a stand. If I go on the road with it, its about 24 seconds to unhook everything, get up and go. I still have a superb albeit smaller display and keyboard. So your so called point about poor ergonomics is all in your mind.

I can use my 13" laptop keyboard quite happily and wouldn't bother with plugging in an external keyboard if I was to use it at home as a main machine.

Well good for you bud, so can I. But my display is a full 10" bigger than yours <g>.

So to explain again - One of the factors when choosing my laptop was good monitor and good keyboard.

Well when you can use a 23" or better, a 26" wide gamut LCD, let me know. I can currently do that today with the Macbook, then go back to the 15" for travel. I can tell you with absolute certainly, whatever laptop you have, its display isn't anywhere the quality of the NEC I have that I can drive from the MacBook. When the NEC 30" comes in, the NEC wide gamut 26" will replace the 23" Cinema display. Yup, the card in the Macbook can drive it just fine. Oh, I should just use the 15" display because you say I can't make the Laptop mutlitask? Bull crap.

Yup still missing the point completely. You shouldn't need to plug in an external device if it was designed better in the first place.

You're really being ridiculous. I can sit on the couch and surf the web just like you, but for lots of work, there's no way you can tell anyone here that driving a display nearly twice is large is a poor idea IF YOU WISH.

We're done here. You want to be "right" despite pretty piss poor logic and a troll like negative attitude towards Apple products, great.