Canon 1ds3 alignment problems

[Mark D Segal]

If you've owned the camera within the return period, if it were me I would give it back to the dealer, get a full refund and order a new camera, or if you can, wait for the next comparable model from another manufaturer (this depends on your investment in lenses). If you are beyond the return period, you really have no choice but to send it back to Canon for "service". In this case you need to be polite and friendly with them, but at the same time very firm about the consequences of a negative experience. I would not hesitate to inform the management of the service center you are dealing with that this issue is being read possibly by hundreds of thousands of photographers per month, many people are now aware that this model may have generic quality assurance issues which have already tarnished Canon's technical reputation, and that unless the camera comes back to you within a time period and in a condition that is satisfactory to you, there will be escalation and considerably more negative publicity.

[carl dw]

Not connected to alignment, but may be a problem of sorts....though it could be me!

I use my Mk3 permanently:
 on a tripod;
 in manual mode;
 using both mirror lockup and 2 second self-timer.

Boring I know, but......

When I first took it out of the box a few weeks back, it was set to program mode. So, I set it to manual mode and set about setting both the mirror up and self-timer functions.

All was fine except for the self-timer function. Unlike in the 5D, I could not set the self-timer by holding down the ISO button and turning the shutter speed wheel. (Yes, I know that in the manual it says to hold down the the AF-Drive button and turn the main thumb wheel on the back of the camera. But, bear with me.)

I was just about to start a big shoot and was surrounded by clients and stylists etc. So, rather than read the manual, I phoned the dealer. He talked me down off the ledge and, deleting various settings, managed to set the 2-second self-timer using the 5D method, NOT the AF-Drive /Thumb Wheel method. It has been set to this for the last three weeks.

Just this morning, I wanted to shoot off a few test frames in various modes (at this stage I'm paranoid about this camera. The drip, drip launch, frankly, stinks.) and set it to Program mode. After shooting a few frames hand-held at high ISOs, I wanted to reset it to my usual Manual settings. I reset the ISO to 100, the mode to Manual. But, I could not reset the self-timer to 2 seconds using ISO/shutter speed wheel, only using the AF-Drive/Thumb wheel method. Fair enough, but why was it possible to do it using the 5D method too? Very, very odd.

Back to the alignment issue.....

Finally, I shot a few frames on a copy stand this morning and I definitely have a problem with alignment. I'm not going to wait for the grid screen to confirm it. I have printed off a shot I took which clearly shows it.

a. This problem was definitely created at the factory and cannot be corrected by a firmware update. It is a physical, construction flaw. Right?

b. I am terrified about what other problems might arise from having to dismantle this camera to correct this fault. For example, right now I have the cleanest sensor I have ever had. I want to keep it that way.

c. Everything I shoot involves either squaring off or vertical/horizontal alignment. So, a flawless viewfinder is really important to me. (My wonderful 5D was bang on.)

What should I do?

Thanks.

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173684\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm sorry to hear of your problems, you are obviously not alone.

I don't know about the timer setting.

The alignment fault is not one that has developed though misuse, or even correct use. It is a manufacturing issue.

I would return the the camera to my dealer for an exchange.

It all comes down to your relationship with your dealer... this is a good reason to pay a little extra and buy locally rather than from a 'box-shifter' on the web. It sounds like your dealer is on your side in this case.

I hope you're soon enjoying the camera, it is a great piece of kit (once the teething issues are sorted!)

[djgarcia]

Dinarius,

Yes, boring, and pretty much they way I also shoot, except I'm always in Av mode! I guess I am boring too and obviously shooting non-moving objects most of the time, except for the danged wind since I'm often shooting very closed-down and slower than 1/8th and leaves tend to be swaying around. Actually since I got my Zeiss Contax-N lenses I've been able to shoot without having to stop down, which has been great.

One thing I miss with the 1Ds3 that I had in the 1Ds2 is that you cannot use self-timer if you want silent mode and viceversa. I'll give your "5D self-timer mode" a try when I get my 1Ds3 back tomorrow. Can you supply specific directions?

I mentioned earlier that when I sent mine in to get the parallax adjustment made (their terminology) I spent $130 on shipping / insurance, it took three days for UPS to deliver within a two hour driving range, Canon actually did fix that in about two weeks, but they whacked the autofocus.

I called about the AF getting wacked on last Monday late afternoon when I received it back. They e-mailed me a shipping label Tuesday afternoon and I ran the package to the pick-up place. UPS delivered by 9:45 the next morning (Wednesday). I got the Accepted status from Canon Thursday morning and the Completed and Shipped on Friday. So tomorrow UPS delivers and hopefully I'll be back in action. So what took two+ weeks first time now took just under 1 week.

Let's hope everything is up to specs ...

[Dinarius]

Thanks for the words of support guys.

I'm going to go to my dealer tomorrow morning. I'll let you know what happens.

Basically, I don't have a problem with the camera being repaired. It's the consequences of it being dismantled that terrify me. This camera was almost certainly assembled by a guy in a bunny suit, in a clean-room, somewhere in Japan. Then it was subjected to some kind of quality control and testing.

Now, it's going to opened up on a desktop, by a guy in Canon UK earing £350 a week, whose only concern is to get through as many units a day as his line manager tells him too. S**t!!!

Canon should be recalling these cameras and replacing them. Period.

This entire launch really does stink.

My advice to anyone intending to buy a 1Ds Mklll is to say to the dealer that you are aware of the auto-focus and alignment issues and that, if your camera comes with these faults, you want a replacement NOT a repair.

D.

ps....

digarcia, on the 5D, with the camera in Manual mode, to set the 2 second self-timer option you hold down the ISO button and turn the shutter speed when until the number '2' appears in the screen. My Mk3 did that too after my dealer talked me through it, but it's not doing it now. I'm not saying it's a fault - not at all, the method described in the manual works fine - I'm just curious as to why it has stopped doing it.

[Mark D Segal]

My advice to anyone intending to buy a 1Ds Mklll is to say to the dealer that you are aware of the auto-focus and alignment issues and that, if your camera comes with these faults, you want a replacement NOT a repair.

D.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In this country (Canada) it would be the norm for a high-end dealer to take back merchandise within a window of 14 to 30 days from purchase, provided the customer keeps all the packaging. The one sure way of keeping it out of the repair shop is to get it replaced with a new one, but I understand from my dealer here in Toronto that the waiting list is still about the same as when the camera first shipped - as more get supplied more get ordered, hence the backlog continues. It would be interesting to know the ratio of trouble-free to troublesome 1Ds3 units Canon has produced so far - on these Forums one would tend to hear more about problems than about something as uneventful as the camera working properly. Nonetheless for an 8000 dollar piece of equipment the problems should really be few and far between. So far it seems as if mine is OK, but my interest in this issue stems simply from the fact of ownership and the potential for having to deal with the service set-up here should anything go wrong.

[jeffok]

In this country (Canada) it would be the norm for a high-end dealer to take back merchandise within a window of 14 to 30 days from purchase, provided the customer keeps all the packaging. The one sure way of keeping it out of the repair shop is to get it replaced with a new one, but I understand from my dealer here in Toronto that the waiting list is still about the same as when the camera first shipped - as more get supplied more get ordered, hence the backlog continues. It would be interesting to know the ratio of trouble-free to troublesome 1Ds3 units Canon has produced so far - on these Forums one would tend to hear more about problems than about something as uneventful as the camera working properly. Nonetheless for an 8000 dollar piece of equipment the problems should really be few and far between. So far it seems as if mine is OK, but my interest in this issue stems simply from the fact of ownership and the potential for having to deal with the service set-up here should anything go wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, my 1DsIII is working flawlessly and I'm dumbfounded. I checked the alignment after I read these posts and it's fine. Focus works good too. Try as I might, look as hard as I can, I can't find anything wrong with the damn camera! Must be something wrong with me... maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, or my measurement instruments aren't sufficiently sensitive.

Wait a minute! I do tend to spend a lot of time "taking pictures" with the camera which doesn't leave much time to find the flaws. That's it! Guess the problem is me after all...

[Mark D Segal]

Jeffok, good for you and good for me and let us hope our cameras keep performing well - we don't need to look for trouble - we'll know it if it happens. That's not the really significant point of this thread, or the others on this Forum and in several others. I also own an original Canon 1Ds. It's built like the Rock of Gilbralter and never given me a bit of trouble. In fact, when that model, and its successor the 1DsMkII, came out, I don't recall ever seeing the rash of complaints about performance and construction issues that we've seen with the 1DMkIII and the 1DsMkIII. It seems as if something has qualitatively changed at Canon, and it shakes confidence relative to how things were only five years ago. That's the crux of the matter.

[jeffok]

Jeffok, good for you and good for me and let us hope our cameras keep performing well - we don't need to look for trouble - we'll know it if it happens. That's not the really significant point of this thread, or the others on this Forum and in several others. I also own an original Canon 1Ds. It's built like the Rock of Gilbralter and never given me a bit of trouble. In fact, when that model, and its successor the 1DsMkII, came out, I don't recall ever seeing the rash of complaints about performance and construction issues that we've seen with the 1DMkIII and the 1DsMkIII. It seems as if something has qualitatively changed at Canon, and it shakes confidence relative to how things were only five years ago. That's the crux of the matter.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark, obviously some people have real issues to deal with. Sometimes they have to do with the camera. But the purpose of my post was to bring a bit of balance back to this long thread. I understand some people feel that measuring a 0.5 degree or even a 1.5 degree error is something they themselves can do accurately. But I also think it's fair to suggest that measurement error may well be the cause here in some cases (not all).

This is a very sophisticated instrument and while I am not making excuses for Canon, I am saying that absolute perfection (zero defects) in every way every time is exceedingly difficult. The question is, at what point is an issue considered "suboptimal" versus a "flaw".

I was struck by the fellow who felt he had to send 4 cameras back to Canon because of this alignment problem. Either Canon have a massive QC problem to fix and a potential ugly PR fiasco to manage (especially with working pros), or they have an intermittent problem with a few cameras and need to tighten up their QC procedures. I think your question on how many people actually have this problem is relevant but you're not likely to get a representative sample.

Reading this thread, one would get the impression it is significant and frequent issue. I'm not so sure it's as bad a problem as we are hearing given that I believe some of these "issues" may have more to do with measurement error and a certain hypersensitivity to perceived flaws. But then maybe I am too generous to Canon, being one of the "lucky ones".

[Mark D Segal]

Jeffolk, this is all well put. I know three other people here in Toronto having zero problems with this camera (including me that makes 4) as well, so sure - hard to tell what the overall situation is and as I mentioned, web forums are more likely to focus on issues rather than "business as usual" - or what should be as usual. But all that said, the more I read the more I get an impression that there is a new kind of situation at the manufacturing end. It would enhance my confidence to be somehow proven wrong.

[Mike Chini]

When I bought my 5D (from the very first batch that shipped), I went through 2 bodies in the first week and was finally satisfied with the third.  The first body had stuck pixels at every ISO.  The second, more stuck pixels and a loose CF door.  I think today's DSLR market is extremely competitive and that Canon, as well as Nikon and others, really push these things out the door as soon as they're ready (barely).  It seems every time there's a new DSLR, there's a 3 month window of minor problems after which everything goes smoothly.  After the problems I had with the 5D, I realized this is just the way things are nowadays and I try to avoid the latest technology for a few months at the very least.

[pfigen]

What none of us know is how many 1DsMKIIIs have been sold in North America and how many of these have the problems we've been discussing. I know that Samy's would have taken my camera back after only ten days, but they didn't have one to replace it with. As far as I can tell from talking to people there, they've only received 30-50 cameras, which is not a lot for the largest store west of the Mississippi. We also have no idea how many people have had problems and just sent them in for service but never talked about it online. Either this is just an irregular blip on Canon's radar screen or it's a sign of some serious quality control problems. Unfortunately, it's too soon to tell.

[carl dw]

Mark, obviously some people have real issues to deal with. Sometimes they have to do with the camera. But the purpose of my post was to bring a bit of balance back to this long thread. I understand some people feel that measuring a 0.5 degree or even a 1.5 degree error is something they themselves can do accurately. But I also think it's fair to suggest that measurement error may well be the cause here in some cases (not all).

This is a very sophisticated instrument and while I am not making excuses for Canon, I am saying that absolute perfection (zero defects) in every way every time is exceedingly difficult. The question is, at what point is an issue considered "suboptimal" versus a "flaw".

I was struck by the fellow who felt he had to send 4 cameras back to Canon because of this alignment problem. Either Canon have a massive QC problem to fix and a potential ugly PR fiasco to manage (especially with working pros), or they have an intermittent problem with a few cameras and need to tighten up their QC procedures. I think your question on how many people actually have this problem is relevant but you're not likely to get a representative sample.

Reading this thread, one would get the impression it is significant and frequent issue. I'm not so sure it's as bad a problem as we are hearing given that I believe some of these "issues" may have more to do with measurement error and a certain hypersensitivity to perceived flaws. But then maybe I am too generous to Canon, being one of the "lucky ones".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeffok,

As the fellow who returned four of these bodies due to mis-alignment, I have to have to say that there was no 'felt' about it, no 'shall I keep it and save the hassle?', no 'I can live with it' .... the cameras were well beyond both my level of flaw tolerance AND the guy who owns the shop that supplied them!

WE compared all four in the shop next to each other under the same conditions and came across varying degrees of image rotation. My dealer remarked "I wouldn't expect that from a £350 amateur camera!".

The serials ranged randomly from 606xxx to 609xxx.

We had £25,000 of cameras on a table in front of us and not a single one worked well enough to be described as usable in a professional environment. They all went back to Canon as D.O.A.

I'm not here to knock Canon, they seem to be doing that pretty comprehensively themselves.

Unless you never photograph architecture, packshots, horizons or anything with prominent vertical or horizontal lines, or you never put the camera on a tripod and compare your screen image to the viewfinder.... maybe the flaw won't ever bother you.

[Dinarius]

Took my camera back to my dealer today. I had images of graph paper shot on a copy stand which I gave him. I also returned all packaging.

He gave me demo model to tide me over (also mis-aligned) until he speaks to Canon.

I suspect that the number of flawed cameras is far greater than is apparent. After all, the process is highly mechanized, so the idea that the problem is arising randomly seems strange. Of course, if there are a few assembly lines producing cameras, the duds might be coming from just one of those.

By the way, a quick way to check your alignment.....

1. Align one side of the viewfinder against something - a door frame, or whatever.

2. When you're *sure* they are as parallel as they can be, turn on Live View.

Is it parallel in Live View? If not, you have a problem.

Alternatively, do it in reverse. Align using Live View (I had to resort to this with both cameras when shooting. I got sick of using the Straighten Tool in ACR4 - if Live View isn't parallel, your sensor is misaligned!) with a parallel and then look in the viewfinder. Still parallel?

Canon's traditional market of Press and Sports have no use for this. I suspect that that's why this issue isn't explosive.

D.

[Mark D Segal]

Took my camera back to my dealer today. I had images of graph paper shot on a copy stand which I gave him. I also returned all packaging.

He gave me demo model to tide me over (also mis-aligned) until he speaks to Canon.

I suspect that the number of flawed cameras is far greater than is apparent. After all, the process is highly mechanized, so the idea that the problem is arising randomly seems strange. Of course, if there are a few assembly lines producing cameras, the duds might be coming from just one of those.

By the way, a quick way to check your alignment.....

1. Align one side of the viewfinder against something - a door frame, or whatever.

2. When you're *sure* they are as parallel as they can be, turn on Live View.

Is it parallel in Live View? If not, you have a problem.

Alternatively, do it in reverse. Align using Live View (I had to resort to this with both cameras when shooting. I got sick of using the Straighten Tool in ACR4 - if Live View isn't parallel, your sensor is misaligned!) with a parallel and then look in the viewfinder. Still parallel?

Canon's traditional market of Press and Sports have no use for this. I suspect that that's why this issue isn't explosive.

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173988\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes and no - perhaps! You may be on to something about the assembly lines. It is conceivable that there is more than one assembly line, something happened on one of them, quality assurance testing is probably confined to a sampling procedure (which should not be the case for an 8000 item) and the cameras were shipped without Canon knowing there was a problem until customers started complaining or until they themselves discovered it in a random check- if they did. While Carl dw's account seemed hard to fathom at first reading, in the context of this explanation it could make sense - perhaps his dealer received a group of units off the same line - but we don't know how the serial numbering fits in.

I don't believe Canon's traditional market is overwhelmingly sports and press - there are all kinds of photographers making all kinds of images using these cameras - obviously from the feedback. It probably hasn't been "explosive" because it is also conceivable based on this explanation that the number of defective units is not a large portion of the total production to date. That doesn't make it easier or more acceptable for the affected customers, or any more acceptable in general.

The worst part, however, is that after all this discussion on web forums about defective 1Ds3's, Canon refuses to acknowledge web forum discussion as  anything to which they should pay attention (one of their phone reps told me as much) and they are playing "hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil". Even if say only 5% of the cameras were defective, and even if they don't believe there is a large problem, as a matter of good PR and in their own long-term interest, they owe the photographic community an explanation and some assurance about rapid remediation where the issues arise. Customers have no use for corporate insularity and disregard, but a lot of time for some down-to-earth candour and honesty. I'd like to believe that most customers are reasonable enough to forgive earnest companies for mistakes to which they admit and then promptly fix - properly. When we hear about the range of issues that have surfaced, even those of us with cameras that are now working well can be concerned about whether this performance will be sustained. Based on my experience with the 1Ds, this is something about which I never thought I would need to concern myself. It is disconcerting.

[Kenneth Sky]

Am I going daft or was this same form of corporate arrogance exhibited by Canon when they intoduced the ipF5000 printer and the 1DMkIII? I know a lot of Canon users have a lot of money invested in lenses and when they produce a good copy the results can be stunning but how much abuse can you guys take? Does it take a class action law suit for Canon to own up to errors? I am constantly amazed at the performance of a world class company like Canon. I had a private conversation with a retailer in Toronto who believes the 1DMkIII is "dead in the water" because of the way professional photographers were treated when the initial problems surfaced.

[Mike Chini]

Yes and no - perhaps! You may be on to something about the assembly lines. It is conceivable that there is more than one assembly line, something happened on one of them, quality assurance testing is probably confined to a sampling procedure (which should not be the case for an 8000 item) and the cameras were shipped without Canon knowing there was a problem until customers started complaining or until they themselves discovered it in a random check- if they did. While Carl dw's account seemed hard to fathom at first reading, in the context of this explanation it could make sense - perhaps his dealer received a group of units off the same line - but we don't know how the serial numbering fits in.

I don't believe Canon's traditional market is overwhelmingly sports and press - there are all kinds of photographers making all kinds of images using these cameras - obviously from the feedback. It probably hasn't been "explosive" because it is also conceivable based on this explanation that the number of defective units is not a large portion of the total production to date. That doesn't make it easier or more acceptable for the affected customers, or any more acceptable in general.

The worst part, however, is that after all this discussion on web forums about defective 1Ds3's, Canon refuses to acknowledge web forum discussion as  anything to which they should pay attention (one of their phone reps told me as much) and they are playing "hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil". Even if say only 5% of the cameras were defective, and even if they don't believe there is a large problem, as a matter of good PR and in their own long-term interest, they owe the photographic community an explanation and some assurance about rapid remediation where the issues arise. Customers have no use for corporate insularity and disregard, but a lot of time for some down-to-earth candour and honesty. I'd like to believe that most customers are reasonable enough to forgive earnest companies for mistakes to which they admit and then promptly fix - properly. When we hear about the range of issues that have surfaced, even those of us with cameras that are now working well can be concerned about whether this performance will be sustained. Based on my experience with the 1Ds, this is something about which I never thought I would need to concern myself. It is disconcerting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174006\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I'm in the market for a new camera and am seriously considering the 1ds3 but considering all of the problems out there - I'm holding off...

[jeffok]

Well, I'm in the market for a new camera and am seriously considering the 1ds3 but considering all of the problems out there - I'm holding off...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174089\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A statement like "all of the problems" is one reason why large consumer electronics manufacturers tend to discount the comments on forums like this. Another post I read somewhere said the 1DsIII is "junk" or some similar word. The reality is that, so far, there is one "problem" with "some" owners and while their problem is lamentable and appears serious, I wouldn't necessarily hold off purchasing a camera just because of what you read in this forum. I would however check out the camera thoroughly at the store before you buy it- that way at least you'll have some assurance that all is well.

[djgarcia]

OK, here's my final report on my "piece of junk" 1DsIII .

I got it back within five days of dropping it off to get repaired the focusing problem introduced while the paralax fix repair was performed. The paralax problem has been fixed to my satisfaction - visually things look aligned to me, I'm not getting a micrometer out and checking for 100% performance. Focusing is also working fine again, though I'm not making any ultra-precision tests.

While I was checking stuff, I decided to make some measurements of the actual image coverage.

In an image size roughly 12.125" * 17.75" on my monitor (there's some slight aspect ratio distortion introduced by the monitor) I measured about 1/8th missing on the right, 1/16th on the left, 1/8th on the top, and 1/32 on the bottom. Dividing the sum of the missing areas by the total image area I come up with roughly 97.7% or so of the actual recorded image - let me know if I'm off. Knowing I'm a little biased to the top and right I can take it into consideration if I'm in a real "precision minded" (for a landscaper) situation. I realize if I were shooting a film camera I would likely have less accuracy than this, never mind if I'm shooting slides to show unless I re-mount them on plastic mounts (I recently dumped a Weiss mounter & several boxes of mounts ).

So, my dream-turned-nightmare appears to be back in dream mode. Now I have to wait for the week-end to really try this out on the field but unless something bad turns up I'm a happy camper with my junk 1DsIII. Hallelujah!

[Lester]

I agree with you 100% I got a 1ds Mk3 and it does not have any problem with it. It is working perfect. There are too many people nick pick at everything, a true photogragher has to make things works sometime, even if it might not be perfect, until repaired, things happens. The reason why large comsumer electronics manuf. don't believe everything on the forum is that many of the post is by other manufacturers using their hire gun to talk bad about their products.  And if you think your 1Ds Mk3 is junk, just sell it to someone else, people is waiting in line to get one.

A statement like "all of the problems" is one reason why large consumer electronics manufacturers tend to discount the comments on forums like this. Another post I read somewhere said the 1DsIII is "junk" or some similar word. The reality is that, so far, there is one "problem" with "some" owners and while their problem is lamentable and appears serious, I wouldn't necessarily hold off purchasing a camera just because of what you read in this forum. I would however check out the camera thoroughly at the store before you buy it- that way at least you'll have some assurance that all is well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Stephen Starkman]

I agree with you 100% I got a 1ds Mk3 and it does not have any problem with it. It is working perfect. There are too many people nick pick at everything, a true photogragher has to make things works sometime, even if it might not be perfect, until repaired, things happens. The reason why large comsumer electronics manuf. don't believe everything on the forum is that many of the post is by other manufacturers using their hire gun to talk bad about their products.  And if you think your 1Ds Mk3 is junk, just sell it to someone else, people is waiting in line to get one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Lester,
The problem is very real for those who were delivered defective cameras. And it appears not to be isolated to only one or two people. Most people I know who have this camera are perfectly satisfied. I know of one photographer who exchanged his camera for a replacement due to  viewfinder mis-alignment. I can assure you, after seeing his test photos, it was hardly nit-picking. Even more so, as MarkDS has pointed out, here in Canada a repair will take over two weeks, start to finish. This again is not a nit-picking issue for most photographers.

As Canon Canada refused to replace the defective camera (thank goodness for dealers who value their clients), it quite logically leads to questions regarding customer service and overall quality control.

I fail to see the "hired guns" anywhere in this picture, at least on this forum, in this discussion.

Stephen