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Author Topic: Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs  (Read 113469 times)

jing q

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« Reply #160 on: December 25, 2007, 08:06:05 pm »

I realised if you click on the user's nickname it brings you to the user's info
from there you can click "Ignore User"
does that make a person disappear from my online experience forever?
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #161 on: December 25, 2007, 08:19:57 pm »

Is this dpreview I am reading or actually the LL MFDB forum?
My god, soon enough we will have comparisons between mobile phone cameras and DB's
Maybe I should start a comparison between my bicicle and my car as it would have the same relevance as what i have been reading here!!!

Marc
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david o

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« Reply #162 on: December 25, 2007, 09:00:45 pm »

Quote
A couple of days ago I took the following architectural shot with my 5D and el cheapo Sigma 15-30mm zoom. The lines look pretty straight to me. Of course, this isn't a single shot but 3 shots at 15mm stitched with Photomerge in CS3 and pulled into shape with 'free transform' and 'warp'.

doesn't look too straight to me... at least that's a demonstration of earth curvature...

May be it would worth it to open a few new forum
- "I shoot 35mm because I don't see the point to shoot MF"
and
- "ETTR is the way to go"

just to keep those war out of here

Merry Christmas if possible
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Ray

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« Reply #163 on: December 26, 2007, 12:37:11 am »

Quote
Dear Ray

Thank you so much for posting these images, at least now any professional architectural photographer knows your credibility. And after viewing your 100% crop I think any MF back users knows it as well.

I simply cant believe that I have spend my time seriously reading your post, I am getting depressed and realizing that life is just too short for reading and posting on this MF forum with guys like you on board.
T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163093\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Some of you guys just don't seem to be able to focus on the issue at hand, do you.

I present an image taken with a Sigma zoom, hastily put together on a notebook since I'm at present travelling, in order to suggest that the perspective and warp controls in Photoshop might be able to take the place of the role of a shift lens, the use of which might not necessarily be such a significant advantage of the larger sensor.

Instead of pointing out the curved lines in the image which you think should be straight, we just get a heap of scorn from you.

Below is a single shot of the same scene, taken from a slightly greater distance. Would you mind pointing out where are the curved lines that you think should be straight. The branches of the tree, perhaps?

[attachment=4393:attachment]
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 12:42:36 am by Ray »
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Natasa Stojsic

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« Reply #164 on: December 26, 2007, 05:11:02 am »

Quote
Some of you guys just don't seem to be able to focus on the issue at hand, do you.

I present an image taken with a Sigma zoom, hastily put together on a notebook since I'm at present travelling, in order to suggest that the perspective and warp controls in Photoshop might be able to take the place of the role of a shift lens, the use of which might not necessarily be such a significant advantage of the larger sensor.

Instead of pointing out the curved lines in the image which you think should be straight, we just get a heap of scorn from you.

Below is a single shot of the same scene, taken from a slightly greater distance. Would you mind pointing out where are the curved lines that you think should be straight. The branches of the tree, perhaps?

[attachment=4393:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163145\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am sorry Ray but the altered image is really a big sloppy mess. It looks stretched distorted even if you look individually structures and definition of the trees, it just doesn't look right period. I mean you just can't hide the fact that you are arguing here with some of the top photographers especially in Architecture.

One thing is for sure though, IF YOU TOOK AND SPEND ENOUGH OF YOUR EFFORT/ENERGY WITH MF BACK like you are doing with 35mm PERHAPS USING MF 28mm MAMIYA OR........    YOU WOULD SURELY AND EASILY BE CONVINCED THAT YOU ARE WAISTING TIME, OR IN OTHER WORDS PERHAPS DOING THE EVERLASTING 35mm RESEARCH WHICH I FIND TO BE FAIR CONSIDERING YOUR GOALS AND YOUR web PERSONALITY.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 05:14:45 am by Natasa Stojsic »
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Ray

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« Reply #165 on: December 26, 2007, 06:57:20 am »

Quote
I am sorry Ray but the altered image is really a big sloppy mess. It looks stretched distorted even if you look individually structures and definition of the trees, it just doesn't look right period. I mean you just can't hide the fact that you are arguing here with some of the top photographers especially in Architecture.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163163\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This was as far back as I could get with a 15mm on 35mm format. As a matter of interest, is there a 20mm shift lens available for MFDBs that could take in this scene?
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Caracalla

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« Reply #166 on: December 26, 2007, 07:06:45 am »

Quote
This was as far back as I could get with a 15mm on 35mm format. As a matter of interest, is there a 20mm shift lens available for MFDBs that could take in this scene?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course there is: 24mm XL Schneider Lens that you can put on a number of Tilt Shift Cameras: Alpa, Cambo etc..... and end up with SUPERIOR RESULTS
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rainer_v

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« Reply #167 on: December 26, 2007, 07:27:30 am »

good morning ......
i take this tread as some  exercise in patience and so i go on.

I will not speak again about the curvature in your ( Rays )  stitched 15mm shot, resulting from panorama stitching in PS, because Ray obviously dont see it,- but believe me , torben and the others here, that its there and not a "mf shooters konspiration" to defend our expensive gear.

You can see attached a temple shot with the 35HR and the eMotion75.
No postpro in this image, just some slight sharpening.
Also you can see a crop of this image,-
and you can compare the rendering of the highlight, specular highlights and of the shadow noise to your own crop.

Ray, to make this "crop comparison" easy i posted your crop again, hoping you will not accuse me for copyright violation to get some money for your mf back or your 1ds3.
but you can write your next essay in which you might say that you have allready said that you monitor hasnt been kalibrated.


[attachment=4395:attachment]

[attachment=4397:attachment]

[attachment=4398:attachment]


why dont you go once again to one of this amazing temples and look after a little bit illumination?
dont post. dont try to shoot pictures nor to argue. meditate.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 08:23:34 am by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

csp

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« Reply #168 on: December 26, 2007, 09:18:31 am »

Quote
That's right csp, whoever/ wherever you are...
Marketing is one of the things I do for a living and I for one am not ashamed of it nor do I feel the need to hide behind an alias so I can throw superficial swings whenever it feels good...

This section of the forum is dedicated to medium format DBs and photography and as someone who has got his fingers deep in the bowl mixing the ingredients of digital backs' design and manufacturing, I sometimes find myself in a situation where the best thing to do is to say "thank you for your time" and to walk away.

If a digital back is not the right tool for your shooting style, for your budget or for your state of mind that is fine. Just as much as a 35mm doesn't fit into some else's work.

Yes the new 35mm cameras are getting better and are offering more than they have ever done before and to say that they aren't listening will be a mistake;
But do they offer 1:1 Live Preview that fills a 30" cinema display at 6 fps? I think not....correction, I KNOW not.
Do they offer absolutely straight lines when shooting WA verticals and shifting up 15 or 20mm while still retaining conrers sharpness without showing CA? I think not....correction, I KNOW not.

Many of the reasons why photographers choose to shoot 5X4 or 8X10 over 35mm remain valid when debating DB Vs 35mm.

To claim that people who choose DBs do it for political reasons or that the new Canons/ Nikons can do equal things in the studio, is IMHO simply a twisted view of our reality.

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yair, it is never good when arrogance and  business interests meet,  this often results in a shift of perception.  be sure i know my business and technic but what separates us is that i create and sell images and you are a hard working employee in a marketing department so it is kind of strange that you want  to tell me what  can be done with a camera in a studio or not.  believe me i´m aware of the limitations of both systems so please don't  paint the mf world to bright . this board is the proof for what does not work and there is much to read.  but  to be honest i see one limitation with dslr's as with any other integrated (mf) solution.  the mirror box can get in the way if you like or need  extreme movements but to this point you can use a canon without dealing with lens casts or other ugly mf phenomenon.  beside  this point i don't know what could not be done in studio with a ds !

why you focus so much on architecture photography is also beyond my understanding given that the market is rather small and it is nothing what could not be done by any talented professional with the right equipment.  

to even slightly  suggest that there is a similar relation between  8x10 and  35mm as there is now between a  below 6x4,5 mf chip and 35mm sensor tells only what marketing trumpet you blow. in the early 90's when better E-6 films are brought to the market a lot of people and fashion shooters moved from mf (6x6/6x4,5) to 35mm when they discovered that there was almost no difference in resolution ( a3/300 scans). but  they did get better contrast and much more keepers because of af and at this time improved 35mm lenses. what finally convinced many was that printed nobody could  see a difference and in years i never ever had one college telling me he sticks to 6x4,5 because of the so much better 3d look, better dof or other imaginary BS. other the reason to use 4x5 and larger this was never questioned  because here you could of course see a difference.

at the end i see we should spend more and more money on equipment which does not have any visible  impact on the quality of our printed work but is in the interest of the industry.   this is in fact what i would call a twisted view of reality.

digital means photography for the rich only. what sad world

c
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 12:22:56 pm by csp »
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thsinar

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« Reply #169 on: December 26, 2007, 09:26:13 am »

hi Rainer,

May be you should tell Ray where this temple is: Ayuthaya, 80 km north of Bangkok.

 

Thierry

Quote
good morning ......
i take this tread as some  exercise in patience and so i go on.

I will not speak again about the curvature in your ( Rays )  stitched 15mm shot, resulting from panorama stitching in PS, because Ray obviously dont see it,- but believe me , torben and the others here, that its there and not a "mf shooters konspiration" to defend our expensive gear.

You can see attached a temple shot with the 35HR and the eMotion75.
No postpro in this image, just some slight sharpening.
Also you can see a crop of this image,-
and you can compare the rendering of the highlight, specular highlights and of the shadow noise to your own crop.

Ray, to make this "crop comparison" easy i posted your crop again, hoping you will not accuse me for copyright violation to get some money for your mf back or your 1ds3.
but you can write your next essay in which you might say that you have allready said that you monitor hasnt been kalibrated.
[attachment=4395:attachment]

[attachment=4397:attachment]

[attachment=4398:attachment]
why dont you go once again to one of this amazing temples and look after a little bit illumination?
dont post. dont try to shoot pictures nor to argue. meditate.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163174\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 09:29:15 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Ray

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« Reply #170 on: December 26, 2007, 12:03:15 pm »

Quote
good morning ......
i take this tread as some  exercise in patience and so i go on.

I will not speak again about the curvature in your ( Rays )  stitched 15mm shot, resulting from panorama stitching in PS, because Ray obviously dont see it,- but believe me , torben and the others here, that its there and not a "mf shooters konspiration" to defend our expensive gear.

You can see attached a temple shot with the 35HR and the eMotion75.
No postpro in this image, just some slight sharpening.
Also you can see a crop of this image,-
and you can compare the rendering of the highlight, specular highlights and of the shadow noise to your own crop.

Ray, to make this "crop comparison" easy i posted your crop again, hoping you will not accuse me for copyright violation to get some money for your mf back or your 1ds3.
but you can write your next essay in which you might say that you have allready said that you monitor hasnt been kalibrated.
[attachment=4395:attachment]

[attachment=4397:attachment]

[attachment=4398:attachment]
why dont you go once again to one of this amazing temples and look after a little bit illumination?
dont post. dont try to shoot pictures nor to argue. meditate.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163174\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good morning to you Rainer. I think you might need some of that patience in order to get your comparisons right.

Your 100% crop is a much larger crop than mine so therefore it's quite likely to be more detailed. I hope you don't mind my posting your image next to mine showing the cropped areas in red.

When I look at my crop, what I'm seeing on my 12" wide laptop screen is what I would see standing about 12" from a 50"x42" print of the entire image.

[attachment=4400:attachment]

I've also shown below our two crops at equal size and area. What lens did you use? I used an $800 Sigma zoom on a 12.8mp camera. My shots were all hand-held also.

[attachment=4401:attachment]

If you are ever thinking of comparing a 1Ds3 with one of your DBs, give me a call and I'll help you get things right.  
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Ray

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« Reply #171 on: December 26, 2007, 12:28:22 pm »

Quote
Of course there is: 24mm XL Schneider Lens that you can put on a number of Tilt Shift Cameras: Alpa, Cambo etc..... and end up with SUPERIOR RESULTS
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I should certainly hope so, considering the expense of that lens and those cameras. However, with the 48x36mm sensor of the Phase backs 24mm would not be quite wide enough, would it!
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thsinar

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« Reply #172 on: December 26, 2007, 01:55:16 pm »

Dear csp,

as a "hard-working employee" of a sales dpt. of one of the MF manufacturers your comments are also somehow "aimed" at me, and I feel it necessary to answer and defend Yair and myself.

I doubt there is any "marketing" speaking here, but rather the experience of many years (I guess Yair is in the field since a few as well) encounters with and feedback from real professionals all over the world, and in my case the previous experience of being myself a professional photographer. These encounters and speaking with those photographers have given us some inside-view of what professionals think and why they choose one system or another or why this gear fits their needs better than another. In any case, be sure of that, we meet also professionals who owe 35 dslr cameras, so we are getting the feedback from this side as well.

I have been one of the first to say, at the beginning of this particular tread, that the comparison done was unfair and that it was possible to get a much better quality out of the 35 dslr in question. This being said, I am also well aware of the real advantages and where lies the "superiority" of a high-end back like a MFDB, when it is in the hands of somebody able to use it, and they are many (able to use it).
I wish to make clear that my words do not imply or suggest that YOU are not able to use such a gear (nor Ray). But again, this is our experiences and our encounters with professionals all over the world, our own experiences with "our" gear/products in many hours of handling and tests.

We are not just here to give you marketing talks and/or to sell our products, nor to make the MF world looking (only) bright. If my role as an employee would be to BS day after day and sell a product which I was not convinced to be a good product giving high quality results, then I would certainly be working at another place. I think some honesty and true words can also be found in the mouth of sales or marketing employees who have the passion of photography.

Best regards,
Thierry


Quote
yair, ... you are a hard working employee in a marketing department so it is kind of strange that you want  to tell me what  can be done with a camera in a studio or not.  believe me i´m aware of the limitations of both systems so please don't  paint the mf world to bright . this board is the proof for what does not work and there is much to read.  b beside  this point i don't know what could not be done in studio with a ds !

why you focus so much on architecture photography is also beyond my understanding given that the market is rather small and it is nothing what could not be done by any talented professional with the right equipment.   



at the end i see we should spend more and more money on equipment which does not have any visible  impact on the quality of our printed work but is in the interest of the industry.   this is in fact what i would call a twisted view of reality.

digital means photography for the rich only. what sad world

c
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163186\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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yaya

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« Reply #173 on: December 26, 2007, 04:56:34 pm »

Quote
yair, it is never good when arrogance and  business interests meet,  this often results in a shift of perception.  be sure i know my business and technic but what separates us is that i create and sell images and you are a hard working employee in a marketing department so it is kind of strange that you want  to tell me what  can be done with a camera in a studio or not.  believe me i´m aware of the limitations of both systems so please don't  paint the mf world to bright . this board is the proof for what does not work and there is much to read.  but  to be honest i see one limitation with dslr's as with any other integrated (mf) solution.  the mirror box can get in the way if you like or need  extreme movements but to this point you can use a canon without dealing with lens casts or other ugly mf phenomenon.  beside  this point i don't know what could not be done in studio with a ds !

why you focus so much on architecture photography is also beyond my understanding given that the market is rather small and it is nothing what could not be done by any talented professional with the right equipment.   

to even slightly  suggest that there is a similar relation between  8x10 and  35mm as there is now between a  below 6x4,5 mf chip and 35mm sensor tells only what marketing trumpet you blow. in the early 90's when better E-6 films are brought to the market a lot of people and fashion shooters moved from mf (6x6/6x4,5) to 35mm when they discovered that there was almost no difference in resolution ( a3/300 scans). but  they did get better contrast and much more keepers because of af and at this time improved 35mm lenses. what finally convinced many was that printed nobody could  see a difference and in years i never ever had one college telling me he sticks to 6x4,5 because of the so much better 3d look, better dof or other imaginary BS. other the reason to use 4x5 and larger this was never questioned  because here you could of course see a difference.

at the end i see we should spend more and more money on equipment which does not have any visible  impact on the quality of our printed work but is in the interest of the industry.   this is in fact what i would call a twisted view of reality.

digital means photography for the rich only. what sad world

c
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163186\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

c (or is it csp?),

I usually try to avoid judging or criticising people whom I have not met in person or at least that I have got some knowledge of their background . I say usually because it is not always easy to swallow such intelligent remarks.

Specifically I won't pass judgement on a photographer without knowing or seeing his/ her work.

Most shooters I know that work digitally are quite happy with this medium and tend to leave the discussion about E-6 in the 90's to those late hours down the pub.

I am not trying to tell you anything but as Thierry kindly suggested, I'd much rather carry on showing these differences to REAL people with REAL names in REAL studios on REAL assignments.

Yair
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RicAgu

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« Reply #174 on: December 26, 2007, 05:00:19 pm »

Some of you people need the following


Get out and shoot more and F(&^ what anybody thinks

Get a hobby

Get a women

or all the above
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 11:23:42 pm by RicAgu »
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eronald

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« Reply #175 on: December 26, 2007, 05:47:39 pm »

After testing my back for a while, I'm convinced that the image quality is potentially better than that of my Canon, color is much better, but the Mamiya and 80mm really could be improved upon. My 39 MP system will beat a 22MP Canon, but it could be better in an absolute sense.

I think digital MF is a work in progress, while Canon and Nikon are playing at the top of their game.

Edmund
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uaiomex

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« Reply #176 on: December 26, 2007, 09:00:01 pm »

Right Eronald.
The new 1Ds3 is having problems (for some)* showing a true IQ advantage over its predecessor. I think we will have a MarkIV with 16bit and a few more mp's, but that would be about the end of the 2 year cycle (average) for digital 35mm and APS.
A 16bit, 27mp MkIV will certainly and dangerously aproach current DMF sensors, but by then the new crop of 48X48 and 56X42 sensors will be selling. Then, DMF will dust d35 forever

* I can see a real improvement from the 5D, even over the net.
Eduardo


 
Quote
After testing my back for a while, I'm convinced that the image quality is potentially better than that of my Canon, color is much better, but the Mamiya and 80mm really could be improved upon. My 39 MP system will beat a 22MP Canon, but it could be better in an absolute sense.

I think digital MF is a work in progress, while Canon and Nikon are playing at the top of their game.

Edmund
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #177 on: December 27, 2007, 04:29:10 am »

Quote
Right Eronald.
The new 1Ds3 is having problems (for some)* showing a true IQ advantage over its predecessor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163289\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's probably because of two things:

1) Canon wide lenses aren't sharp enough, especially wide-open and/or in the corners to take advantage of 21MP FF.  Put a 180mm macro or a 300mm f/2.8 on and see what happens.  Or a Leica (or other HQ wide lens) lens with an adapter.

2) An extra 4.4MP going from 16.7MP to 21.1MP is not very significant compared to going from, say, 0.6 MP to 5 MP.  A better way to compare is to look at the square root of the ratio of pixels; sqrt(22.1/16.7) = 1.124, or a 12.4% increase in resolution.  Incremental, but not monumental.  That results in more je ne se quoi, than it does in "Wow!".

The mk3 does have much lower pixel read noise at high ISO.  At low ISOs, the pixel-level noise has not improved as much, except for weaker line noises in the deep shadows.
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #178 on: December 27, 2007, 04:50:24 am »

@Eduardo,

Please read the whole thread (I know it's a lot).

Even a 33MP 16 bits Canon DSLR will not equal MF backs.
The bigger sensor is were the most difference lies.

I do agree that with a Crop MFback were the sensor dimensions are getting close to FF 35mm I would also opt for the DSLR due to flexibility.

I choose the Leaf Aptus22 because I wanted to have the biggest sensor possible I could afford, I could get a crop sensor for less with a higher MP count but that would for me make no sense and I would have bought the 1DsIII.

There is more ofcourse like DR, No AA filter etc. but the size of the sensor is what will ALWAYS keep the comparision between 35mm DSLR's and MF backs (with the large sensors) something that makes them 2 seperate beasts.
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Ray

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« Reply #179 on: December 27, 2007, 08:00:16 am »

Quote
There is more ofcourse like DR, No AA filter etc. but the size of the sensor is what will ALWAYS keep the comparision between 35mm DSLR's and MF backs (with the large sensors) something that makes them 2 seperate beasts.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=163343\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just like the differences between the Olympus E-3 and FF 35mm, Frank? Or haven't you been following those threads?

The sensors in Phase backs have double the area of 35mm. FF 35mm has about 4x the area of an E3 sensor.

It's all in the lenses. Zuiko lenses are generally better than 35mm lenses. The way forward for Canon now is to develop better lenses to match the increasing pixel density of its sensors.
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