Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11   Go Down

Author Topic: Canon vs Phase  (Read 70918 times)

Don Libby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 824
  • Iron Creek Photography
    • Iron Creek Photography
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #160 on: September 24, 2007, 06:57:55 pm »

I get to send the 5D to MAXMAX for an IR conversion.  There's no real sense in selling the body since it looks like its gone thru a war!  

Do what I did and tape over the box
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 06:59:03 pm by Iron Creek »
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #161 on: September 24, 2007, 11:39:25 pm »

Quote
Ok, I see what's going on. In effect, it is continuous lighting, not flash, and that has drawbacks. The flash needs to last for the entire duration of the exposure, then the partial shutter is no longer a problem.

Nice feature, and it might be ok with some Nikon compact flashes, but it's not going to be useful for more advanced lighting setups, and it won't work with 99% of the flash units out there.

For example, it means that if you use flash for a speed such as ~1/250-1/1000, you will not be freezing the action the way you normally would with a flash. Part of the reason I chose Profoto Pro lighting was the short flash duration, and the way it freezes moving models down to 1/7000th. (I use Pro6, the Pro7 is even faster).

As always these cameras prove themselves very useful in fields such as event/sports with little or no setup, but not in more advanced situations. Each to their own!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141526\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Missing the point completely. If using flash as the light source, the sync speed is not particularly relevent. However, if using as fill in flash, which is when the camera shutter speed is possibly more important than flash duration for freezing action, the fact I'm shooting at 1/1600th or 1/8000th with flash is very, very impressive. And was what was being talked about, fill in flash that is.
Besides Profotos are completly useless if you are doing location shooting out in the wilds. Way too heavy to carry and rarely any plug sockets to be found either!  

Having to use a Canon flash on a Canon camera is not exactly a hardship as there is very little choice of Flashs [compered to lenses] especially high end ones. And as for fancy flash lighting, strobes are pretty good and more controllable than sayProPhoto heads, interactive wireless being built in to start with and the Nikon flash stuff is even better than Canon by all accounts. You certainly don't always need studio flashes for 'advanced' photography.
Check out www.Stobist.com
You get modules to fit your make of camera with some 3rd party makes which copy the native functions. Not sure if all features are implemented though.
I did notice the H3 wouldn't let me use my Canon Speedlights at all and was dumbfounded to discover they had a [completely useless with a W/A lens] built in pop up flash.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 11:40:21 pm by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #162 on: September 25, 2007, 12:47:58 am »

Quote
Having to use a Canon flash on a Canon camera is not exactly a hardship [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You must know you are pushing the bounds of reality

Try lighting a large room (like a hotel foyer with a sea view) or using a large softbox with a 4AA battery powered flash...

or even a dancer jumping..

[a href=\"http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com/dance/dance_futt_futt_futt_photography_12.html]http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com/dan...ography_12.html[/url]
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #163 on: September 25, 2007, 05:19:08 am »

Quote
Missing the point completely. If using flash as the light source, the sync speed is not particularly relevent. However, if using as fill in flash, which is when the camera shutter speed is possibly more important than flash duration for freezing action, the fact I'm shooting at 1/1600th or 1/8000th with flash is very, very impressive. And was what was being talked about, fill in flash that is.

I guess we have very different views on lighting. I have never taken a photo with an on-camera flash. Brrrrr....

I didn't miss the point at all - this new flash technology has severe limitations. Great for event photography, but hardly competitive for fashion or advertising work, and I don't know what event photographers would even be doing in this forum. MF digital is clearly not for them.

Oh, and I take the Profoto gear everywhere...

« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 05:32:08 am by foto-z »
Logged

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2431
    • Pepperanddust
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #164 on: September 25, 2007, 05:38:59 am »

Graham,

With the Nikon you can use multiple flashes as well. It is even possible to use the Nikon FP system and throw in some 'regular strobes' in slave mode. They will go off simultaneously with the system flashes. With this tweak you can use shutter speeds up to the flash duration of the strobe (around 1/2500th with my Elinchroms).

I have not yet tried this myself but know from a friend it is possible (at least he is claiming it works). I have to see it for myself one of these days because it does have some nice applications. When you use a SU800 on the Nikon, you do not use an on camera flash either.

Sure. It is different than using a profoto setup but I believe there are very few people that realize how far you can go with a bit of thinking and tweaking.

Brave setup BTW, I reckon there was no wind that evening

Anyway, you are right in many aspects. It still is comparing apples&oranges. They are both fruit and come of a tree.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 05:41:30 am by Dustbak »
Logged

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2431
    • Pepperanddust
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #165 on: September 25, 2007, 10:04:27 am »

Under normal circumstances yes, I agree.

Apparently with FP and on manual mode steered by either a SB/SU800 I have been told it works.

Anyway, no way of telling (unless you have tested it and tell me otherwise) before I have tried it that way myself (as I said in my previous post).
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #166 on: September 25, 2007, 10:24:20 am »

Quote
Under normal circumstances yes, I agree.

Apparently with FP and on manual mode steered by either a SB/SU800 I have been told it works.

Anyway, no way of telling (unless you have tested it and tell me otherwise) before I have tried it that way myself (as I said in my previous post).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I just did a regular test - elly at higher speeds fired by PW

Black stripes galore

BUT

my thinking goes like this.

An elly is probably lit for about 1000th of a second - in a curve

so

at 500 you will get a stripe (elly only lit half the time)

but why was I getting a stripe at 2000th - the elly is lit for twice that duration ??

this has to be becuase it has fired off too early or late (probably early)

SO

There is a possiblility that these nikon dedicated flashes fire at a time more centred on the exposure

Therefore it is just possible that speed shorter than an ellie (or other brand) duration the sripe effect MAY dissapear.

Owning no nikon dedicated flashes and certainly not knowing how to use them I would be most appreciative if someone could run a test

(the test being using a nikon to fire some studio lights via thier 'slave' cell at speed above or equal to 1000th)

I would expect uneven lighting at much reduced power but there is an interesting possibility for action freezers....

S
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 10:32:11 am by Morgan_Moore »
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2431
    • Pepperanddust
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #167 on: September 25, 2007, 10:36:08 am »

Have a SB800/SU800 attached to the Nikon with FP as well. I know he used the D2x, SB800 and (I thought) Hensel strobes. Fun thing to find out whether this really works (or not).

I can test this weekend on D200/SB800/RX600. I will let you know.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 10:36:38 am by Dustbak »
Logged

SeanPuckett

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 244
    • http://photi.ca/
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #168 on: September 25, 2007, 10:48:40 am »

I get usable flash at 1/8000 on a D200 with off-camera flash (SB600) and auto-FP mode set.  Usable enough to more than fill and stop the blades of a fan backlit by daylight at 6ft.  You can't use on-camera flash above 1/250 though.

Nikon's flash system is very good -- the camera is indeed smart enough to expose right in the middle of the flash pulse.
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #169 on: September 25, 2007, 11:42:32 am »

Quote
I get usable flash at 1/8000 on a D200 with off-camera flash (SB600) and auto-FP mode set. Usable enough to more than fill and stop the blades of a fan backlit by daylight at 6ft. You can't use on-camera flash above 1/250 though.

Nikon's flash system is very good -- the camera is indeed smart enough to expose right in the middle of the flash pulse.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141750\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I meant using the Nikon flash to fire off studio flashes like ellie bowens via thier build int slave etc



S
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 12:01:02 pm by Morgan_Moore »
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

jing q

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 596
    • we are super
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #170 on: September 25, 2007, 12:06:38 pm »

Quote
Graham,

With the Nikon you can use multiple flashes as well. It is even possible to use the Nikon FP system and throw in some 'regular strobes' in slave mode. They will go off simultaneously with the system flashes. With this tweak you can use shutter speeds up to the flash duration of the strobe (around 1/2500th with my Elinchroms).

I have not yet tried this myself but know from a friend it is possible (at least he is claiming it works). I have to see it for myself one of these days because it does have some nice applications. When you use a SU800 on the Nikon, you do not use an on camera flash either.

Sure. It is different than using a profoto setup but I believe there are very few people that realize how far you can go with a bit of thinking and tweaking.

Brave setup BTW, I reckon there was no wind that evening

Anyway, you are right in many aspects. It still is comparing apples&oranges. They are both fruit and come of a tree.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141715\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've tried this before with the FP mode on a Canon flash. The FP mode is basically made up of multiple high speed flashes. The studio strobes don't recycle fast enough to go off again even if it's triggered by the multiple flash of the Canon. I tried this with a Pro B2 before (similar recycle times to a Pro 7A 1200)

If only technical equipment was like a computer game you could hack.
sigh.
Logged

TJ Asher

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #171 on: September 25, 2007, 03:00:57 pm »

Quote
I didn't miss the point at all - this new flash technology has severe limitations. Great for event photography, but hardly competitive for fashion or advertising work, and I don't know what event photographers would even be doing in this forum. MF digital is clearly not for them.

Oh, and I take the Profoto gear everywhere...

Graham, that's an impressive setup. Running off battery I hope.


I feel your statement about MF digital not being for event photogs is quite correct. Being one of those who shoots "yearbook photos" as somebody recently disparaged us in another post , the nature of the business does not lend itself to the necessity of MF.

I have not looked through the viewfinder of a MF camera in over 15 years. MF was an absolute necessity back in the day when doing product shots. The ability to pull a Polaroid to check the shot was vital. Now, we have the built-in Polaroid on the camera or back or we get to do it tethered. I do miss the waist-level view finder.

Consumers are becoming more and more conscience of the different qualities available with digital photography. Nobody ever used to ask what kind of film I used, they didn't care. Now, what camera I shoot with is often a topic of discussion.

It may come to the point that to stay ahead of the "perceived quality curve" of the masses, photogs in some markets will have to go back to MF like back when film was dominant.


Why would I, someone who doesn't use MF digital, lurk here? To keep an eye on the industry and the trends of those who are pushing the envelope.

It's also fun watching the debates between folks.  

Difference in image quality? Easy. Anyone who says there isn't is crazy. At least IMO.  
Logged

Jonathan Wienke

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5829
    • http://visual-vacations.com/
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #172 on: September 25, 2007, 03:13:38 pm »

Jing is correct; in order to use a shutter faster than 1/250 with Canon or Nikon speedlights, the flash goes into a high speed sync mode where it pulses rapidly for 1/250, thereby providing a quasi-continuous light during the entire shutter cycle. You can't use this in conjunction with slaved studio strobes, because the strobes will fire the first time the speedlight pulses (just after first curtain opens), and then the rest of the frame will be dark, or at least not lit by the strobes. The only method that works is to use multiple Canon/Nikon slaved speedlights so that all of the flashes are putting out quasi-continuous light for 1/250 second.

The reason is simple, DSLR shutters have 2 curtains that travel actoss the sensor/film in approximately 1/250 of a second. Shutter speeds faster than 1/250 are achieved by the delay between the first curtain opening and the second curtain closing even though the total travel time for each curtain is still always ~1/250. So if you're shooting at 1/1000, there is a 1/1000 delay between first and second curtain, and only 1/4 of the frame is being exposed ant any given instant during the shutter cycle. But each shutter curtain is in motion for 1/250 of a second. If you have a strobe with a 1/1000 flash pulse, only 1/4 of the frame will be exposed and the rest will be black. If some genius designed a strobe that fired continuously and evenly for 1/250, you could first-curtain sync it with any DSLR at any shutter speed and get no black bars.

If you shoot 1/250 or slower shutter, you can mix speedlights and strobes easily. Use a pocket wizard to trigger the strobes from the PC socket, and the speedlights from the master in the camera hot shoe. I've done this shooting events; use the strobes to light up the room in general, and than a 550EX with a small softbox on a bracket for shadow fill. Much less stressful than trying to get useful people shots at 1/8 f/2.8 ISO 1600.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 03:29:44 pm by Jonathan Wienke »
Logged

JeffKohn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1668
    • http://jeffk-photo.typepad.com
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #173 on: September 25, 2007, 07:10:32 pm »

One big downside to FP-mode flash sync is that because of the way the flash fires multiple times the flash output is greatly reduced, making it really only useful for fill-flash (which is exactly what FP is meant for).
Logged
Jeff Kohn
[url=http://ww

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #174 on: September 25, 2007, 07:55:25 pm »

Quote
I guess we have very different views on lighting. I have never taken a photo with an on-camera flash. Brrrrr....
I'm not even keen on using flash at all. So I'm even more snobby than you, so there.  

Quote
I didn't miss the point at all - this new flash technology has severe limitations. Great for event photography, but hardly competitive for fashion or advertising work, and I don't know what event photographers would even be doing in this forum. MF digital is clearly not for them.

Oh, and I take the Profoto gear everywhere...

 
I'm not an event photographer and didn't say speedlights were a replacement for studio lights, but I do see that speedlights also have uses in other areas. Especially editorial work where there is no budget to even hire the kit you use, let along a bunch of people to carry it. Check out www.strobist.com for ways of using small flashes creatively.
Of course it has limitations, just like using the impressive kit you illustrated has limitations in other ways.
For instance I shot a different girl or or group of girls every 20 mins for 24 hrs last year [a long story] and with constantly changing backgounds and settings. A camera with speedlight and a secondary unit was ideal for the job. Especially as it was done with no preparation or planning and just a few minutes shooting with each person or group.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 10:22:55 pm by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #175 on: September 25, 2007, 10:08:29 pm »

Quote
You must know you are pushing the bounds of reality

Try lighting a large room (like a hotel foyer with a sea view) or using a large softbox with a 4AA battery powered flash...
Why would I suggest you use speedlights for architectural photography, especially in the situation you suggest? Though of course lots of small flashes that can be hidden when there's no room to have larger stobes could be very handy, plus you don't have then remove all the power cables that may be in shot. Sometimes  the 'wrong' kit can be better than the right kit!

Quote
or even a dancer jumping..[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141700\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you mean this pic?
  Personally I like to shoot just available light, but in this case I ended up shooting with the single flash I had with me [and was still learning how to use] to try and balance Joseph's very black skin against a very bright background. I had only just started using digital at that point, so it was all a bit experimental. Canon Flash exposure is a little erratic at times and I got the best composition with one of the worst exposures. Having said that it was printed and used in an exhibition in Sweden recently and  it looked fantastic, it looks better printed than on screen. That's a very old version of that shot on website. I actually have a completely new website as well that I did last year, but stilll haven't had time to fill it up and put online. But that's way off topic.

Not sure why some posters are thinking that speedlights are replacements for studio lighting. I simply mentioned that they can do much faster syncing than some people believed that's all. Which allows for shots not possible with MF and studio flash. That particular shot is not even using the high speed mode, it's shot at 1/250th. If I'd known how to set the faster sync then, I would have done so and used the flash on a lead held above my head, which I did not have at the time. But even though it's not technically perfect it's a very popular image.
If I were to shoot it now, I would like to use studio lights with a H3 and have some Sherpas to carry the kit for me - it's a long walk away from any car parking! We cycled off road to get there.

At Herrang in Sweden, this year a photographer from NY Times turned up to do an article and used studio lighting on the dance floor to photograph freestyle dancers and made himself very unpopular by doing so. And then by virtue of being fixed in place, when something unusual  and more interesting happened in a different part of the dancefloor, he missed the shots completely.
I'll repeat something I said earlier, a hammer, saw and a screwdriver are all great tools. When used at the correct time. Speedlights, Strobes, DSLR and MF DSLRs are no different. All are brilliant tools when used appropriately.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

geesbert

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
    • http://www.randlkofer.com
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #176 on: September 26, 2007, 06:34:30 am »

One mor 35mm advantage: not so many f1.2 or f1.4 lenses out there for MF, which has to be considered when talking about low light photography and shallow DOF.
Logged
-------------------------
[url=http://ww

Frank Doorhof

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1522
    • http://
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #177 on: September 26, 2007, 07:19:03 am »

Did you ever try to shoot a f2.8 on a MF system

Trust me the DOF is very very thin.
a f2.8 on MF will be roughly the same as f1.2 on 35mm let alone a crop camera.

That's not a disadvantage but a BIG advantage for us modelphotographers.

As mentioned before it's all what you do with the system.
I cannot think about selling my 35mm material simply because I would limit myself too much.
But I also cannot think about selling my MF material because I would also limit myself when working in what I do most
Logged

Frank Doorhof

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1522
    • http://
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #178 on: September 26, 2007, 07:22:43 am »

Sample shot on f5.6

Logged

geesbert

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
    • http://www.randlkofer.com
Canon vs Phase
« Reply #179 on: September 26, 2007, 08:48:18 am »

Frank, that is just not true, have you ever used a 85mm 1.2 wide open? if your subject isn't facing you straight on, only one eye will be in focus.


http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

check this out, you'll see that a 135mm lens at f2 Fullframe will give you much less DOF than a 210mm 5.6 lens at 6x4.5.
Logged
-------------------------
[url=http://ww
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11   Go Up