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Author Topic: Valid MF criticism or not?  (Read 119066 times)

jjj

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Valid MF criticism or not?
« Reply #240 on: September 09, 2007, 10:43:20 am »

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I was talking about light, not weather, but I live in Sweden so this things about intant changes are very normal to me, believe me. In this case It seems to me that the problem was people not beign there at the time they should not the back. And if you're in Sweden, this just doesn't happen so often, specially if it's linked or depending on the weather. Always have a plan B here because the rain can appear in two seconds... But I see you point, if you've had a Canon.... But in the way  I see photography the problem had been the shot being taken i bad light conditions. If you see the  sky turning black what do you think? "I need 800 maybe 1600 ISO to fix this" or "this light won't work for this shot".  I don't know what the work was about but did it work to shoot 500 people under a very grey sky?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138166\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Light outside is dependent on weather, so if you are talking about light outdoors, you are talking about weather. The main problem was not people not being there, it was the weather being so unusually awful and the abscence of decent light, people were sheltering and waiting for a break in the deluge and then stood in the rain as it eased off. I was lucky to get the few moments I had in between downpours.
Sometimes you cannot have a plan B, especially as weather is simply outside your control and fitting in 700+ people severely limits you, especially as the building in background in this case, was a major feature of the image, so couldn't be missed out. This was the only oportunity for the shot too, no second chances as people were leaving the next day.
I spend every July in Sweden at the same location and have never seen the weather so severe or the light so limiting at that time. I only had the flash as a safety measure, not as a light source.

Even now with hindsight there is nothing I could have feasibly done to make things easier with the H3. Bar renting way more flashes than the budget permitted. Besides, rigging them above the crowd and out of shot was next to impossible anyway. Even then, I wouldn't have had the time to set them up, as the rain eased off for such a pathetically short time. I don't even know what setting I used with the flashes I did have, as there was that little time to shoot, with the light vanishing as I took first image.

And no a 39M Hasselblad back at 400ISO was simply not up to the job,  I was very dissapointed with the results.
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feppe

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« Reply #241 on: September 09, 2007, 10:48:49 am »

To settle this issue once and for all (not), I set up a quiz - 50 MFDB shots, 50 dSLR shots, you be the judge! Here's the announcement thread, please move any discussion on the quiz there so we won't take this even farther away from the already blurry point.

jjj

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Valid MF criticism or not?
« Reply #242 on: September 09, 2007, 10:49:35 am »

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From my subjective tests, I would say that the best of the current generation of digital backs is 2-3 generations ahead of the current digital full-frame (1Ds2), when used in decent light, and at least three generations ahead of the crop-frame prosumer cameras.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A back that needs 'decent' light to produce a good image is quite frankly a bit crap for many photographers' needs and several generations behind, not in front of a Canon. I certainly won't waste money on a DB until it can do 1600ISO better than a Canon. Not everyone shoots in a studio or wants to light a scene.
One of the supposed advantages of large sensors is less noise etc, not more.
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jjj

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Valid MF criticism or not?
« Reply #243 on: September 09, 2007, 10:53:46 am »

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To settle this issue once and for all (not), I set up a quiz - 50 MFDB shots, 50 dSLR shots, you be the judge! Here's the announcement thread, please move any discussion on the quiz there so we won't take this even farther away from the already blurry point.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
For this to have any real relevence you need to have shots shot with both camera types with the same lighting, subject. The variables in the shoot may otherwise outweigh any format differences.
Good effort though.  
« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 11:05:46 am by jjj »
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feppe

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« Reply #244 on: September 09, 2007, 10:58:50 am »

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For this to have any real relevence you need to have shots shot with both camera types with the same lighting, subject. The variables may otherwise outweigh any format differences.
Good effort though. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138177\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yep, and there's about a million other reasons why the quiz is entirely invalid, incorrect and inconclusive. So what's stopping you?

Mark_Tucker

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« Reply #245 on: September 09, 2007, 11:08:04 am »

OK, Andre has convinced me that Canon is lesser-than. I'll stick with the larger formats now. Can anyone tell me how to cancel my eBay ad?

http://tinyurl.com/36734n
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jjj

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« Reply #246 on: September 09, 2007, 11:12:43 am »

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Yep, and there's about a million other reasons why the quiz is entirely invalid, incorrect and inconclusive. So what's stopping you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138180\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Err, it's not valid, therefore it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
Too many of the shots could have been easily produced by either camera type. And you'd only tell the difference when seeing big prints and if you are producing big prints, you shoot accordingly.
I clicked through to see the pics though.

The same shot produced on both types of camera with same settings and then compared, would be more informative.

EDIT - I reckon in many cases it would be more akin to using different film types as different sensors will have differing characteristics and therefore produce a different quality of image. That's not better or worse, just different.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 11:16:22 am by jjj »
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feppe

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« Reply #247 on: September 09, 2007, 11:26:03 am »

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Err, it's not valid, therefore it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138184\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's exactly the point. It's fun. Jeesh.

samuel_js

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« Reply #248 on: September 09, 2007, 11:42:13 am »

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Light outside is dependent on weather, so if you are talking about light outdoors, you are talking about weather. The main problem was not people not being there, it was the weather being so unusually awful and the abscence of decent light, people were sheltering and waiting for a break in the deluge and then stood in the rain as it eased off. I was lucky to get the few moments I had in between downpours.
Sometimes you cannot have a plan B, especially as weather is simply outside your control and fitting in 700+ people severely limits you, especially as the building in background in this case, was a major feature of the image, so couldn't be missed out. This was the only oportunity for the shot too, no second chances as people were leaving the next day.
I spend every July in Sweden at the same location and have never seen the weather so severe or the light so limiting at that time. I only had the flash as a safety measure, not as a light source.

Even now with hindsight there is nothing I could have feasibly done to make things easier with the H3. Bar renting way more flashes than the budget permitted. Besides, rigging them above the crowd and out of shot was next to impossible anyway. Even then, I wouldn't have had the time to set them up, as the rain eased off for such a pathetically short time. I don't even know what setting I used with the flashes I did have, as there was that little time to shoot, with the light vanishing as I took first image.

And no a 39M Hasselblad back at 400ISO was simply not up to the job,  I was very dissapointed with the results.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The weather-light relationship can be interpreted in many different ways. I supose the P45 wasn't up to the way you work. And that's normal because the Canon's aren't up, or maybe I should say, don't fit in the way I work. But I don't think you should judge a entire system like the P45 because of a extreme situation. That happens with every system.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #249 on: September 09, 2007, 11:43:31 am »

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Err, it's not valid, therefore it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
Too many of the shots could have been easily produced by either camera type. And you'd only tell the difference when seeing big prints and if you are producing big prints, you shoot accordingly.

We have a bit of a contradiction here. The whole point of the "test" was to explore the notion that there is "something" about an MFDB image that is so superior to a DSLR image that the difference is distinguishable even in a web JPEG. if "too many of the shots could have been easily produced by either camera type" then perhaps the MFDBphiles have been exaggerating just a hair, and the test has disproved the hype.
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #250 on: September 09, 2007, 01:53:59 pm »

I've got sixty correct.
But alot of pictures show so little depth due to the lighting etc. that's it's impossible to judge.
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #251 on: September 09, 2007, 02:20:14 pm »

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I've got sixty correct.
But alot of pictures show so little depth due to the lighting etc. that's it's impossible to judge.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As I asked on the
other thread...

So now its the light that is creating the '3d' look and not the back?

If the backs are so far superior to a dslr than that '3d' effect should be visable regardless of the quality of the light.

So which is it?  The light or the back?
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nicolaasdb

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« Reply #252 on: September 09, 2007, 02:26:55 pm »

I am quiting photography all together.....I am selling all my equipment.......I give up.....everybody here convinced me I am not good enough...snif snif
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joern_kiel

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« Reply #253 on: September 09, 2007, 02:31:45 pm »

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OK, Andre has convinced me that Canon is lesser-than. I'll stick with the larger formats now. Can anyone tell me how to cancel my eBay ad?

http://tinyurl.com/36734n
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

LOL
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samuel_js

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« Reply #254 on: September 09, 2007, 02:41:43 pm »

Quote
OK, Andre has convinced me that Canon is lesser-than. I'll stick with the larger formats now. Can anyone tell me how to cancel my eBay ad?

http://tinyurl.com/36734n
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Quote
I am quiting photography all together.....I am selling all my equipment.......I give up.....everybody here convinced me I am not good enough...snif snif
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Time to close the door here.
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Mark_Tucker

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« Reply #255 on: September 09, 2007, 02:43:55 pm »

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I've got sixty correct.
But alot of pictures show so little depth due to the lighting etc. that's it's impossible to judge.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The problem is, dear people, is that Life is pretty much like this. If we all shot jobs where it was Magic Hour for twelve hours a day, we'd all be in good shape. But as we all know, sometimes we get lucky, and other times, we show up to grey skies, or even worse, white seamless. A medium-format back is not going to save your butt from bad light. It is not a magician; no matter how many bits it has. Of course, Sinar and Phase and Leaf would love you to believe that, but I think it's any experienced person's responsibility to separate marketing copywriter hype from actual Reality.

Having said that, it does seem silly to try to judge Canon from MF, from a tiny JPG. But you guys were the ones that laid down the claim. So it's time for you to lie in your bed.

I also get the sneaking suspicion that there are some Unrealistic People posting on this board, who are too lazy to want to do any post-processing, or Adjustment Layers, or much of anything else to their images. They just want to snap their fingers, and use the file right out of the camera, without tweaking it in any way. I will suggest that's simply unrealistic, if you're trying to squeeze out every last ounce of detail and color and feeling from any file, whether it be Canon or MF. Do you think a Master Woodworker would expect this from any tool? A master gardener? A master architect? The file will only get you so far -- at that point, it's time to roll up your sleeves, and really put your own personal touch on your images, in the form of Adjustment Layers, Burning and Dodging, and Selective Color. If a man's not willing to carry his end of the load, you can't realistically turn and blame the tool. The tool only gets you so far.

I'd suggest that any man would be much further along if he bought a Canon, took the eighteen grand in savings, then bought a few weeks at the Santa Fe Workshops, taking post classes, and then used the rest of the money to buy gas, and then hit the road to shoot hundreds and hundreds of images, and practice what he learned in Santa Fe. The camera alone does make the man.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 08:48:25 pm by Mark_Tucker »
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awofinden

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« Reply #256 on: September 09, 2007, 03:12:03 pm »

I used to find that my canon files needed a lot more post work to get them to where I wanted them as compared to my phase one.

The MF vs slr debate is a little silly, one is good for one thing and one is good for another. To my mind there is one obvious answer to this big PIA buying decision: Instead of buying a P25 or P45, buy a P21 for 13 grand or whatever and a canon for 8 and for 21 grand you have the transvestite of solutions. (the best of both worlds). I was half thinking of getting one of those canon d40 or whatever it's called for when it's dodgy light. Supposedly its as good as the 5d which was supposedly better than the 1ds mark 2. Sounds like a good option to me. One thing I've learned about digital is actual resolution is not really that big of a deal.
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eronald

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« Reply #257 on: September 09, 2007, 03:35:51 pm »

When I started to shoot fashion, I met an old guy who had been AD for zillions of hi-end  mags including glamour. He agreed that my images were usable, but told me I should get a pretty-looking male assistant (with no skill necessary) and take him along to the shoots to keep the models happy as I didn't have "it" as far as looks and style go. Guess what ? He was right. I did it and it worked. Sometimes brutally honest advice is ... helpful.

Edmund.

Quote
I'd suggest that any man would be much further along if he bought a Canon, took the eighteen grand in savings, then bought a few weeks at the Santa Fe Workshops, taking post classes, and then used the rest of the money to buy gas, and then he hits the road to shoot hundreds and hundreds of images, and practice what he learned in Santa Fe. The camera alone does make the man.
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« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 03:41:36 pm by eronald »
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Mark_Tucker

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« Reply #258 on: September 09, 2007, 04:32:57 pm »

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Instead of buying a P25 or P45, buy a P21 for 13 grand or whatever and a canon for 8 and for 21 grand you have the transvestite of solutions. (the best of both worlds).
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If it was only that easy, (and that inexpensive). You are not making note of the two sets of lenses, two sets of chargers, two sets of accessories, two sets of camera bodies, etc. That alone adds another potentially tens of thousands of dollars to the investment, when you're talking about medium-format.

I suggest that most anyone reading this could get by just fine with two 1ds3 bodies, five or six lenses, and that's it. Walk on the plane with one carry-on bag. That's very hard to do with Contax/Phase solution, especially with many of the smaller planes now in use, with smaller overheads.

Now that TSA won't let you Zip-Tie your checked luggage, it makes it very hard to think about checking backup bodies and lenses. My second assistant just flew out west, two weeks ago, and someone at TSA took his 5D and two zooms. When he got to Albuquerque, the slots were wide open, where the 5D and two zooms had been. And since you can't Zip-Tie your cases, there's no way to prevent this. Yet another reason to keep your kit small.

Since a few of you here seem to be independently wealthy and not concerned with economics, this part is for the rest of the crowd here: When you read stories about massive layoffs at both Corbis and Getty, and you realize that even the Stock business is in the tank, it does make a prudent person wonder whether it's wise for a young photographer to invest tens of thousands of dollars in MF bodies and backs, when they're depreciating at a very rapid pace. I got an email request from a major NY magazine last week that I worked for about ten years ago, and the editorial job offer was for $300 a day, plus a measly digital prep fee, and maybe a tiny amount for an assistant. It was all I could do to hold my tongue, and not write a nasty email back to her. If any bean counter did the math, and realized how much gear a photographer takes to a job, compared to a normal editorial fee, they'd have a heart attack, and immediately recommend you moving toward a career in Insurance or Appliance Sales. If I was a young photographer, just starting out, it simply is hard to justify investing in medium format, given the total cost investment, no matter how good the files are. At some point, the rent comes due...

Just one opinion. But my point is, in the Real World, there's a hell of a lot more involved in this decision than 12 bits versus 16 bits, or focus fall-off.

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 08:45:51 pm by Mark_Tucker »
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eronald

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« Reply #259 on: September 09, 2007, 04:48:03 pm »

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Now that TSA won't let you Zip-Tie your checked luggage, it makes it very hard to think about checking backup bodies and lenses. My second assistant just flew out west, two weeks ago, and someone at TSA took his 5D and two zooms. When he got to Albuquerque, the slots were wide open, where the 5D and two zooms had been. And since you can't Zip-Tie your cases, there's no way to prevent this. Yet another reason to keep your kit small.


MT, http://www.marktucker.com
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Obviously, now they X-ray all luggage they know exactly which ones to open.

Edmund
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