Epson 3800-Two Problems

[ScottWald]

I’ve been working carefully with the Epson 3800 for about half a year now, printing exclusively on matte papers.  On the whole I have been happy with it, but there are two serious shortcomings I have come up against which I think people should know about.  First, printing on matte Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Paper (formerly called Enhanced Matte) will result in noticeable mottling in large areas of deep black.  I still use this paper for proofing, but the prints are not acceptable for exhibition.  Second, you cannot use Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308 with this printer.  There is a serious problem with the low-value greens–the ink appears not to adhere to the paper.  These are not problems with my individual unit.  I have waited before making this post so that I can confirm with other careful users of this printer that they are experiencing the same problems.

[rugydp]

Hi

I print B&W pictures on PhotoRag in ABW mode. I set the ink density in the printer driver between -3% and -5% depending on the picture to avoid problems with deep blacks. The results are wonderful. I can't help you on the greens, though.

Hope that helps.

[matt4626]

I use the 3800 with a RIP and the results with Enhanced Matte are great. IMHO the problem might be with the profile not the printer.

[grepmat]

I also use the 3800. I agree that there is a problem with mottling in large dark areas when using Enhanced Matte. I found this problem existed with the 2200, plus with a number of non-epson matte papers.

I'd suggest that you use EM for proofing and Velvet Fine Art for your final prints. VFA does not suffer this mottling, and it offers subtle improvements across the board. It's also one of the brighter rag-type papers. I love it.

[smthopr]

I’ve been working carefully with the Epson 3800 for about half a year now, printing exclusively on matte papers.  On the whole I have been happy with it, but there are two serious shortcomings I have come up against which I think people should know about.  First, printing on matte Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Paper (formerly called Enhanced Matte) will result in noticeable mottling in large areas of deep black.  I still use this paper for proofing, but the prints are not acceptable for exhibition.  Second, you cannot use Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308 with this printer.  There is a serious problem with the low-value greens–the ink appears not to adhere to the paper.  These are not problems with my individual unit.  I have waited before making this post so that I can confirm with other careful users of this printer that they are experiencing the same problems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133186\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've been unable to see any problem (and I've looked through a loupe) on my 3800.

I will note that my paper is not new and is labeled "Enhanced Matte".

I did also notice that the color profile crushes the darkest tones a wee bit compared to the ABW driver, but still produces a pleasing color print. One might even argue that although less than accurate, the profile punches up the image a tad which seems to work well on matte paper.

Perhaps Epson has changed the paper slightly since writing the printer driver and profiles?

[madmanchan]

To illustrate what Scott means about the mottling, here are some examples:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink1.jpg
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink2.jpg
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink3.jpg
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink4.jpg
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink5.jpg

Definitely don't need a loupe to see them. Here the angle of lighting and the perspective of the camera was set to maximize the effect, just to demonstrate.

[pflower]

Curious.  I have made over 450 A3+ prints on my 3880 on Photo Rag 308 and about 100 A2 on the same paper.  results have been very very good.  The last batch were of hedges - full range of greens from very dark (almost black) to iridescent.  As long as they are kept within gamut they have all printed without any problems at all.  I use a custom profile and certainly have never seen any ink refusing to stick or any mottling problems.

[madmanchan]

I use a custom profile and certainly have never seen any ink refusing to stick or any mottling problems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133290\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Note that the mottling issue was for EEM only (a.k.a. Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte) -- I haven't seen any mottling on HPR 308 and I don't think Scott has run into it either (we've discussed some of these issues offline).

In terms of the greens on HPR, it's not so much that the ink doesn't stick, but that the greens seem to lack detail compared to the other color ranges. It's as if somehow the ink has been smeared a bit so they look muddy.

Which Media Type are you using for HPR? I'm using the Velvet Fine Art Media Type, but as I recall when testing the other Media Types the results were basically the same.

One think that's unclear is whether there are variations between HPR batches. It's possible that Scott and I got unlucky.

[Mark D Segal]

I've been unable to see any problem (and I've looked through a loupe) on my 3800.

I will note that my paper is not new and is labeled "Enhanced Matte".

..................

Perhaps Epson has changed the paper slightly since writing the printer driver and profiles?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The name of the paper has changed twice since it was called Archival Matte way back when, but I am informed the specs have not changed.

[smthopr]

To illustrate what Scott means about the mottling, here are some examples:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink1.jpg
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink2.jpg
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink3.jpg
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink4.jpg
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/overink5.jpg

Definitely don't need a loupe to see them. Here the angle of lighting and the perspective of the camera was set to maximize the effect, just to demonstrate.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yikes! I'm definitely not seeing that. It's awful. It really makes me think something has changed in the paper.

Has Epson responded to this issue?

-bruce

[ScottWald]

Thanks everyone for your replies.  Rugydp, I haven’t tried b&w printing with my 3800 and HPR308 and am encouraged by your experience.  Matt4626, I find the EEM mottling problem strongly correlated with the 3800.  I printed on a 2200 for a couple of years without seeing the effect, and I’ve taught at an art college where they run acres of EEM through a 2200 and a 4800 and I’ve never seen the problem there.  Pflower, your experience is encouraging.  May I second Eric’s request and ask which custom profile you have been using?  Also, is there anyone else out there getting good color results with HPR308?  If so, perhaps Eric is right that he and I have bad batches of paper.  I have a sealed box of HPR308 from a different batch which I wasn’t even going to open, but if many others aren’t experiencing the problems the Eric and I are it might be worth breaking the seal and giving it a try. So please let us know if you're getting good results.

On a more positive note, I just printed a 24-image exhibition on Epson Ultra Smooth Fine Art an am very happy with the results (I have also had good results using Epson Velvet Fine Art). I did have one defective box of USFA—areas of differing density in the deep blacks—but it was quickly and cheerfully replaced under warranty.

[Mark D Segal]

It is unlikely that you have a bad batch of paper. As Eric Chan mentioned, and Eric and I have worked together testing this, the problem is largely confined to Epson Enhanced Matte paper (or whatever they call it now) on the 3800. I use the same paper extensively on a 4800, we have compared performance for this issue, and there is no comparison. That being the case, part of the explanation may be Epson's particular profile for the combination of that printer and that paper. Epson has expressed considerable interest in analyzing this matter, but I am not sure whether there is yet a conclusive outcome to this work.

[madmanchan]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for chiming in here. One reason Scott and I are thinking about a possibility of a bad batch of HPR is because of another photographer's post (somewhere else, can't remember where) in which he was also having problems with HPR holding the ink, and his dealer contacted Hahnemuehle in Germany, where they confirmed based on his batch number (printed on the box) that they did indeed have some problems at the factory applying the coating evenly, due to some temperature issues. They ended up replacing the box with papers from another batch and the ink handling issues disappeared afterwards.

Obviously this is an uncommon situation, and perhaps even less likely that both Scott and I would wind up independently with bad batches and seeing the exact same greens issue ...

[Mark D Segal]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for chiming in here. One reason Scott and I are thinking about a possibility of a bad batch of HPR is because of another photographer's post (somewhere else, can't remember where) in which he was also having problems with HPR holding the ink, and his dealer contacted Hahnemuehle in Germany, where they confirmed based on his batch number (printed on the box) that they did indeed have some problems at the factory applying the coating evenly, due to some temperature issues. They ended up replacing the box with papers from another batch and the ink handling issues disappeared afterwards.

Obviously this is an uncommon situation, and perhaps even less likely that both Scott and I would wind up independently with bad batches and seeing the exact same greens issue ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Eric, I thought the defective paper suggestion was in regard to EEM - if it is HPR  and the company has acknowledged the problem, that is a different story indeed! BTW, where do we stand with Epson now on the EEM/3800 mottling issue?

[madmanchan]

Hi Mark,

I guess I would describe the situation as unresolved ... Epson seemed to feel the problem would be fixed with new profiles, but I haven't seen any new profiles posted to the web site yet. Maybe they're still working on them, but I'm not sure.

[Mark D Segal]

Hi Mark,

I guess I would describe the situation as unresolved ... Epson seemed to feel the problem would be fixed with new profiles, but I haven't seen any new profiles posted to the web site yet. Maybe they're still working on them, but I'm not sure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eric, that sounds like the status. I'd be surprised if they are still working on it. How long can it take to draft, test and refine a profile? I think they quietly dropped the issue either because they couldn't resolve it, or other things took priority.

[madmanchan]

I agree, Mark. If I had to guess, they're probably busy with the new xx80 series of printers and whatever else is to come after that. In my discussion with them, they were quite clear that relatively few 3800 users had complained about the EEM mottling issue, so I doubt it was ever a high priority to address.

[clarkee80]

I have just read these posting with great interest as i have been having some issues with my 3800 and hahnemuehle photo rag myself.

Although mine are with the paper rippleing, as in the actual paper has waves in after it has been printed on to. Mainly where there are areas of black

I have had no problems with mottling or greens on any of my prints.

Can i ask what 3800 users have their 'drying time per print head pass' set at?

Cheers

Andrew.

[wesley]

Hi Mark,

I guess I would describe the situation as unresolved ... Epson seemed to feel the problem would be fixed with new profiles, but I haven't seen any new profiles posted to the web site yet. Maybe they're still working on them, but I'm not sure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi all,

I have a question, 2 actually:

1. Would a custom profile (eg made by EyeOne + PM5?) solve the mottling issue? Because the problem seems to be leaning towards ink density and the way the ink is laid down. Can a custom profile solve that?

2. Is there anybody with Colorbyte or Colorburst RIP who has printed without the mottling problem?  matt4626 > you mentioned about using a RIP, could you tell us what the software is? Thanks!

Best
Wes

[madmanchan]

Although mine are with the paper rippleing, as in the actual paper has waves in after it has been printed on to. Mainly where there are areas of black

Can i ask what 3800 users have their 'drying time per print head pass' set at?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133777\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've found that it doesn't really make a difference. I leave mine at the default but have tried it up to 3 seconds per head pass -- yes, it makes the whole printing process take forever!

Either way, the fact remains that the dark areas of the print still get the same amount of ink coverage, and the only way to get rid of the ripples is to let the print dry thoroughly. Then, if the ripples still aren't completely gone, sandwich the print between two pieces of acid-free tissue and then put a heavy weight carefully over the print to help flatten the print further. Be careful when doing this so as not to damage the print.