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Author Topic: PEOPLE IN LOW LIGHT  (Read 14819 times)

Goodlistener

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« on: July 01, 2007, 01:51:26 pm »

Too many choices!  

I want to shoot head and shoulder shots of people in low light in a large room.  The zoom lenses like Canon 24-70 with f/2 are just too heavy and expneesive. Zooms like Canon 24-105 f4.0 images stablizer are expensive and I would pay it but not if I'm limited to f4.  Canon 17-55 F2 IS zoom looks very good but my experience is that 55mm is not tight enough.  I'm shooting a Canon XTi with 1.6 crop factor.  The 25-84 mm IS zoom does not have enough IQ and not enough wide open aperture for my taste.

As near as I can tell, low light, mid range focal length and affordable price adds up to the Cannon 85mm f1.4 prime. Selling price is about $350 to $370 depending on where you look.  Sigma has a nice looking 24-80 mm zoom with great specs and a fair price, BUT... image quality is less than Canon and I see no reason to compromise on IQ. Ever. Period.  The major reservation I have here is that the lack of zoom makes life harder.  Canon 24-70L at 960 grams weight and $1,100 price wold fix a few problems, but the size and weight is just more than I care to deal with.  I only wish the Canono 24-105 L IS was at f/2.4 or there-abouts,  not f4.0

Any thoughts or reactions to this line of reasoning would be most welcome. The quality of opinion on this forum is very high.


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« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 01:53:15 pm by Goodlistener »
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jrmintz

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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2007, 11:45:46 pm »

I've had good luck with the EF 100mm f/2.0. I like it a lot.
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macgyver

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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2007, 12:32:09 am »

Or the 135 f/2, similar price to the 17-55. Or maybe even the 200 2.8.
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:Ollivr

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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2007, 04:07:11 am »

Hi, just some thoughts from me: Shooting people in low light means doing "candid" sort of pictures, no? In that case, particularly indoors, 85mm is simply too long. Look at the 30mm 1.4 from Sigma.

AFAIK there is no such lens as a 24-80 from Sigma, at least not from the last couple of years. If you mean the 24-70EX I agree it is pretty soft.

O.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 04:07:46 am by :Ollivr »
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2007, 07:35:13 pm »

To do what you want, you must either go with prime lens(es) or else one of the heavy expensive zooms. I use the 24-70L (it's f/2.8, BTW, not f/2) most of the time, but occasionally the 100/2 or 135/2L primes. When it comes to shooting in low light, there are no shortcuts. You either must have fast, heavy, and expensive glass, a body that can deliver low noise at high ISO, or both. There are no shortcuts or cheap magic bullets. Primes are lighter and less expensive than zooms, but you need to have the freedom to "foot zoom" in order to use them. In many situations, you don't have that freedom for one reason or another (room size, furniture arrangement, being limited to a certain area, etc.) and a fast zoom is your only choice.

The weight and cost of fast lenses is directly proportional to aperture size; an f/2.8 aperture demands a larger, heavier lens than f/4. It's basic physics. If weight is an issue, start hitting the gym a bit more often. As to cost, if you aren't getting enough of a financial return from the project to financially justify the purchase of the proper tools for the job, don't waste your time with it. You certainly aren't doing yourself any favors if you do, and you're devaluing photography as a profession and making it harder for working pros to make a living.

Ollivr, doing head & shoulder shots with a 30mm lens, even on a 1.6x body, is a really stupid idea unless you want the "big nose" perspective distortion effect, something not generally desirable in portrait-type shots. On a 1.6x body you could get away with it for some full-length shots, and of course group photos, but not portrait-type work.
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Freelance

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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2007, 09:09:46 pm »

Quote
To do what you want, you must either go with prime lens(es) or else one of the heavy expensive zooms. I use the 24-70L (it's f/2.8, BTW, not f/2) most of the time, but occasionally the 100/2 or 135/2L primes. When it comes to shooting in low light, there are no shortcuts. You either must have fast, heavy, and expensive glass, a body that can deliver low noise at high ISO, or both. There are no shortcuts or cheap magic bullets. Primes are lighter and less expensive than zooms, but you need to have the freedom to "foot zoom" in order to use them. In many situations, you don't have that freedom for one reason or another (room size, furniture arrangement, being limited to a certain area, etc.) and a fast zoom is your only choice.

The weight and cost of fast lenses is directly proportional to aperture size; an f/2.8 aperture demands a larger, heavier lens than f/4. It's basic physics. If weight is an issue, start hitting the gym a bit more often. As to cost, if you aren't getting enough of a financial return from the project to financially justify the purchase of the proper tools for the job, don't waste your time with it. You certainly aren't doing yourself any favors if you do, and you're devaluing photography as a profession and making it harder for working pros to make a living.

Ollivr, doing head & shoulder shots with a 30mm lens, even on a 1.6x body, is a really stupid idea unless you want the "big nose" perspective distortion effect, something not generally desirable in portrait-type shots. On a 1.6x body you could get away with it for some full-length shots, and of course group photos, but not portrait-type work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you can get a 24-70L for $1100 you are doing good.  Grab it. I am agreeing with Jonathan here.  My last 24-70L f2.8 cost me $1275 on sale at Wolf camera.
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Goodlistener

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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2007, 09:13:56 pm »

Jonathan, i agree with your analysis, the job requires a body with good high ISO capability PLUS either/or a fast prime or one of the high performance zooms.  My hunch is that a good zoom is less expensve in the long run than several prime lenses. I'm not sure who said it, maybe Winston Churchill, but the saying goes: "But in the long run - we are all dead".
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DarkPenguin

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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2007, 09:26:19 pm »

Have you considered the tamron 28-75 f2.8?  Very sharp.  The range is a little odd on a crop body.
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larsrc

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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2007, 10:01:49 am »

Quote
Hi, just some thoughts from me: Shooting people in low light means doing "candid" sort of pictures, no? In that case, particularly indoors, 85mm is simply too long. Look at the 30mm 1.4 from Sigma.

AFAIK there is no such lens as a 24-80 from Sigma, at least not from the last couple of years. If you mean the 24-70EX I agree it is pretty soft.

O.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126029\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

He said in a large room, so 85 mm does not seem too long for head/shoulders, if anything it's too short.  But there's nothing longer that's below f/2 that I've seen.  GoodListener, is the 85mm f/1.2 too expensive at ~$1500?  The 85mm f/1.8 is so close to f/2 that you may as well look at the longer ones if 85mm is too short.

-Lars
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:Ollivr

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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2007, 10:03:01 am »

Quote
Ollivr, doing head & shoulder shots with a 30mm lens, even on a 1.6x body, is a really stupid idea unless you want the "big nose" perspective distortion effect, something not generally desirable in portrait-type shots. On a 1.6x body you could get away with it for some full-length shots, and of course group photos, but not portrait-type work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oh I was thinking the roughly 50mm you would get from the 30x1.6 crop were considered a "normal" length. What is a normal length then?

O.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 10:47:22 am by :Ollivr »
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2007, 06:54:02 pm »

Quote
Oh I was thinking the roughly 50mm you would get from the 30x1.6 crop were considered a "normal" length. What is a normal length then?

85mm is the shortest lens you want to use for head/shoulders portraits, but 100-135mm is more common. The 70-200/2.8L IS is my most-used portrait lens, and it's generally toward the long end of the focal range, between 100 and 180mm, for head/shoulders portraits. When you use too short of a lens, you run into perspective distortion problems that can make an otherwise excellent image very unattractive. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about:

Portrait @ 40mm:
[attachment=2746:attachment]

At first glance this portrait isn't that bad, until you realize that the feet are nearly as large as the head. I was too close to the subject and the legs and feet appear disproportionately large as a result. The parents were OK with the image in spite of its shortcomings, but do that to a swimsuit model and I guarantee you'll get fired.

Portrait @ 200mm:
[attachment=2747:attachment]

I had my 70-200mm cranked all the way out to 200mm for this shot, and was across the room. Note that the feet and legs (or at least what you can see of them) appear proportionate in size to the rest of the body.
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Goodlistener

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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2007, 02:39:49 pm »

The examples are much appreciated. It takes time and study, practice too, but gradually (very gradually) I'm getting smarter about this.  

I happen to have the low end Canon 75-300 kit lense. And, last night we had a party at our house. What I found was that 85 mm is not tight enough to get head and shoudlers from 1/2 way across a room.  200mm is good, 300mm is really nice to have.  f 4 aperture is good for about 1/15 or 1/30 second shuttter speeds with ISO 400 to 800 in fairish tungsten room light.  Adding IS to a 1/30 second exposure would give a clear picture, IF the person sits still for about 1 or 3 seconds (time to compose & focus the shot.)  Most people if they are eating, talking and laughing etc. will not sit still that long.  

The 135mm prime may be a good option but ideally I wold find a L quality 18-300 mm f2.4 with images stabilizationn for about $650 delivered & with the lens hood included. Since that day is not going to come anytime soon, I need to work out the compromises. Or else win the lotttery.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2007, 03:03:21 pm »

Quote
The 135mm prime may be a good option but ideally I wold find a L quality 18-300 mm f2.4 with images stabilizationn for about $650 delivered & with the lens hood included. Since that day is not going to come anytime soon, I need to work out the compromises. Or else win the lotttery.

Sounds like you're in the market for a 70-200/2.8L IS. f/2.8, and IS, excellent image quality, and the perfect focal range. There's a reason it's one of Canon's most popular lenses. And it comes with the hood and tripod foot.
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mahleu

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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2007, 02:49:56 am »

Quote
Sounds like you're in the market for a 70-200/2.8L IS. f/2.8, and IS, excellent image quality, and the perfect focal range. There's a reason it's one of Canon's most popular lenses. And it comes with the hood and tripod foot.
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The non IS version comes in a lot cheaper for those on a budget and is a lovely lens.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2007, 04:50:04 am »

But is less suitable for the low light work the OP wants to do.
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Goodlistener

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« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2007, 04:17:15 pm »

I placed an order for Canon 28-135 IS lens AND 70-200 f/4 IS lense with a good qulity B&H circular polarizer plus step up rings so one good polarizer can work on both lens. The very wide open aperture zoom lenses are more expensive than I care to commit to, and these lenses, at around f/4 will work well enough in combination with image stabilization, steady to start with holding techniques, ISO 800 settings on the camera and the relativly good low noise characteristics of the Canon sensors.

The advice to get f2.8 or thereabouts lens is a good technical solution but not economical. This equipment is a substantial upgrade from my present 18-55 and 75-300 kit lenses at $100 each.

I do have a Canon 35mm prime at f/2 and have had a good experience with that. Street scenes in a city with lots of street lights have come out bright and clear with this lens.  The 70-200 is regretably, not 70-300 but I decided to concentrate on basic image quality over extended zoom (and aperture) range. Its possible that I will get a 1.4 X extender at a later date, but it makes more sens to get a great deal more practical experience with the 70-2000 f/4 l IS lens beefore I sppend more $$$$.  I still have the 75-300 zoom and am generally happy with it, so if I really need 300mm for some reason, I have it. Just that the image quality is good whereas Canon L series 70-200 f4 IS lens delivers much better than "good".

Everyones advice and comments are appreciated. One thing that is clear:  there are a lot of options and a lot of different approaches, all of which "work for" their respective owners.

Thank you everyone again.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2007, 06:17:38 am »

The 70-200/4L IS is a good choice if the budget won't justify the f/2.8 model. You may not be happy with the 28-135, especially once you start shooting with the 70-200 and see what a really good lens can do. I predict you'll ebay the 28-135 and the 70-300 and get the 24-105/4L.
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Goodlistener

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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2007, 11:16:49 pm »

Your predictions are coming true even as we speak. I canceled the order for 28-135 and substitued an order for the Tamron 28-75.  It has constant f/2 and will meet my need for low light, but does not meet my need for higher zoom rates.  Like 90 to 300 mm range for instance. I did seriously consider the Canon 24-105 IS lens.  Did not buy it becaause it does not have f/stop capablity in the 2s, and because its too expensive in combination with the 70-200 f/4 L IS lens.

The Tamron 28-75 sugggested by Dark Penguin has a lot of pros, and some cons. In the end, its a practical step in the right direction and its not the end of the story for ever, just something that should work at a large party with lots and lots of extended family who I want to capture images of.
It turns out that the Canon 24-135  has generally poorish to fair image qality, so once I understood that it was easy to cancel the order.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 11:19:08 pm by Goodlistener »
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jorgedelfino

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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2007, 12:23:53 pm »

Quote
Your predictions are coming true even as we speak. I canceled the order for 28-135 and substitued an order for the Tamron 28-75.  It has constant f/2 and will meet my need for low light, but does not meet my need for higher zoom rates.  Like 90 to 300 mm range for instance. I did seriously consider the Canon 24-105 IS lens.  Did not buy it becaause it does not have f/stop capablity in the 2s, and because its too expensive in combination with the 70-200 f/4 L IS lens.

The Tamron 28-75 sugggested by Dark Penguin has a lot of pros, and some cons. In the end, its a practical step in the right direction and its not the end of the story for ever, just something that should work at a large party with lots and lots of extended family who I want to capture images of.
It turns out that the Canon 24-135  has generally poorish to fair image qality, so once I understood that it was easy to cancel the order.
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again, the tamron is f2,8 not f2
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mwookie

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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2007, 09:58:58 am »

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Or the 135 f/2, similar price to the 17-55. Or maybe even the 200 2.8.
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I don't own the 135, but have tried it out and am very happy with the results. I think this may be the next choice in my lineup.



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