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Author Topic: ZERO NOISE technique  (Read 410564 times)

Dansk

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« Reply #180 on: March 25, 2008, 09:29:07 am »

Pretty nifty
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feppe

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« Reply #181 on: March 25, 2008, 03:07:57 pm »

Can't wait to get my mittens on this! Might need to do some new low-light shooting just to test it when it comes out

jmboss

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« Reply #182 on: March 27, 2008, 03:57:16 pm »

Guillermo,

I hope your new program will significantly eliminate the noise issues that I encounter with my Mamiya 645/Leaf Aptus 17 when shooting under almost the exact same type of lighting conditions as the interior shot shown in your example.

Since the Leaf Aptus 17 raw file format is on the supported DCraw list, I suppose this is a good sign.

Thank you for your ongoing dedication and hard work involved in the production of this latest beta of the Zero Noise application.

Best Regards,

Joe Bossuyt
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 04:02:57 pm by jmboss »
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Quentin

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« Reply #183 on: March 27, 2008, 07:37:33 pm »

Great, I look forward to the beta.

Quentin
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Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, Arbitrato

Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #184 on: March 28, 2008, 12:20:37 am »

The beta has been ready for download for the last days, but I still didn't have time to translate the tutorial into English. Wether you understand Spanish or just want to have a look:

ZERO NOISE DOWNLOAD (click DESCARGAR)

ZERO NOISE  TUTORIAL


Regards.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 12:21:15 am by GLuijk »
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MichaelEzra

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« Reply #185 on: March 28, 2008, 09:18:00 am »

GLuijk,
the download page has a link to histogrammar instead of zeronoisev0.9.zip
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 09:18:13 am by MichaelEzra »
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #186 on: March 28, 2008, 10:07:25 am »

Quote
GLuijk,
the download page has a link to histogrammar instead of zeronoisev0.9.zip
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hey Michael don't scare me please!!! my PC at home broke yesterday and I cannot modify any web content by now hehe. Where did you click?

I just tried and works fine:

MichaelEzra

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« Reply #187 on: March 28, 2008, 10:42:13 am »

Hi Guillermo,

on this page:
http://www.guillermoluijk.com/software/zeronoise/index.htm

in the upper left corner the link is to
http://www.guillermoluijk.com/download/histogrammarv1.1.zip
(As seen with IE7)

I downloaded the app by simply guessing the file name:)

Do you have plans to enable those apetizing sliders for Gamma, etc on the application?

_____________
Btw, out of this topic, I found that the best solution to backup and restore entire machine, including OS is Acronis True Image (raid array friendly), highly recommend it.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 11:49:53 am by MichaelEzra »
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Pantoned

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« Reply #188 on: March 28, 2008, 11:30:33 am »

Congratulations for your work, have been waiting for it for a long time!!

Just wanted to point out that I needed to download the "dcraw compiled with Microsoft compiler update" to be able to open my 1ds mark III files in vista. The normal version was working fine with 400d files.

Thanks for everything and keep up with this project!

Arnau.
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #189 on: March 28, 2008, 12:50:58 pm »

Quote
Do you have plans to enable those apetizing sliders for Gamma, etc on the application?

Definitively, I have great expectations about the gamma slider since it will allow to capture scences of more than 16 f-stops (yes 16!) of real dynamic range. For a 16-bit linear enconding 16 is a physical limit, and practical limit could be 12. By using the gamma for not losing levels in the shadows we can go beyond that limit when blending overexposed images.

But I would like to have feedback from you all, show your tests here. Both if they were fine or went wrong. That would encourage me a lot to add the new options.

Thanks for the advide, I could recover the system by reinstalling XP from the F11 recovery option, but the HD is about to die, I will install a new one, probably two, next week.

PS: I already corrected the link.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 12:52:56 pm by GLuijk »
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canmiya

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« Reply #190 on: March 28, 2008, 01:18:57 pm »

an interim translation....and yes it is rough...
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=ht...&hl=EN&ie=UTF-8
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Iliah

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« Reply #191 on: March 30, 2008, 09:36:15 am »

Dear Sir,

Congratulations on making yet another one useful program.

Naysayers will always try to tell you they do not need it, that's fine because others do need it.

Most of us who deals with implementing raw conversions will support your point that substitutions (as well as stacking, blending, stitching) are best performed over the raw data. Demosaicing and gamma-correction of noisy data amplifies noise and propagates it through the colour channels. It takes more shots and more effort to get similar results after demosaicing, not to mention artefacts resulting from any demosaicing and caused by noise in raw data.

IMHO your program can write back the same raw file, without demosaicing, allowing to use regular raw convertors over it.
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #192 on: March 30, 2008, 01:37:10 pm »

Quote
Dear Sir,

Congratulations on making yet another one useful program.

Naysayers will always try to tell you they do not need it, that's fine because others do need it.

Most of us who deals with implementing raw conversions will support your point that substitutions (as well as stacking, blending, stitching) are best performed over the raw data. Demosaicing and gamma-correction of noisy data amplifies noise and propagates it through the colour channels. It takes more shots and more effort to get similar results after demosaicing, not to mention artefacts resulting from any demosaicing and caused by noise in raw data.

IMHO your program can write back the same raw file, without demosaicing, allowing to use regular raw convertors over it.

I totally agree, in fact the original idea was to do it all over the undemosaiced RAW data with assistance from a C-coder who managed to reutilise DCRAW code to access the RAW undemosaiced data (in this thread we talked about that and Jonathan Wienke even pointed that a DNG output would be a very good approach). But this guy became too busy with other projects so I went on alone and chose a demosaiced approach.

You give me new ideas for improvement. I have no idea of the DNG format, is it easy to build a DNG file from scratch? I think RAW formats are indeed quite complicated.

Just curious, are you Iliah Borg?

Regards.

Iliah

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« Reply #193 on: March 30, 2008, 03:26:41 pm »

Dear Sir,

Yes, I'm Iliah Borg

Raw formats are complicated, but for the case when you need just to replace original sensor data with manipulated it is not so difficult. Native raw converters like Nikon's (NX), Canon's etc. do not support DNG, hence staying with native raw may have sense. DNG implementation is not too difficult, http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/dng/dng_sdk.html
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #194 on: March 30, 2008, 04:19:14 pm »

Quote
Dear Sir,

Yes, I'm Iliah Borg

Raw formats are complicated, but for the case when you need just to replace original sensor data with manipulated it is not so difficult. Native raw converters like Nikon's (NX), Canon's etc. do not support DNG, hence staying with native raw may have sense. DNG implementation is not too difficult, http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/dng/dng_sdk.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185475\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Iliah it's an honour to have such an expert like you commenting in this thread. I heard about you because I shared some interesting posts in the past with your daughter Julia in dpreview (about linear RAW development and later about your UniWB), she's a tremendously qualified person about all these matters and willing to share knowledge.

I will take into account a possible DNG-output version after I have done some other improvements I have in mind. Perhaps it's beyond my capabilities, but it's worth a try.

There is one thing however I want to try that I think would not be possible with a linear RAW-output approach: I plan to apply the gamma (2.2 or whatever) in floating point calculations right before the final 16-bit integer rounding for output. This can provide much more levels for the lowest f-stops and hence a higher tonal richness and DR expansion. I think 16 f-stops and even more can be reached with no problem with this scheme (the problem will be to find such a huge DR scene in real life hehe).

Regarding this I have a question for you if you don't mind: to apply the gamma to a calculated {R,G,B} linear pixel I plan to do (gamma=2.2 for simplicity, all normalised values):

1. Calculate Y = k1*R + k2*G + k3*B according to some luminance k1+k2+k3=1.0 weighted average model

2. To apply gamma to luminance: Y' = Y^(1/2.2) = (k1*R + k2*G + k3*B )^(1/2.2)=K*Y  so K?
K=Y'/Y=Y^(1/2.2-1)=(k1*R + k2*G + k3*B )^(1/2.2-1)

3. So finally perform:
R' = R * K
G' = G * K
B' = B * K


Do you think this simple approach is right? I am fairly sure I am preserving tone (ratio between R, G and B is kept). But can this way to apply the gamma have some undesired consequence or caution? maybe related to the colour profile used...


Best regards.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 04:22:01 pm by GLuijk »
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ejmartin

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« Reply #195 on: March 30, 2008, 04:25:09 pm »

Quote
I totally agree, in fact the original idea was to do it all over the undemosaiced RAW data with assistance from a C-coder who managed to reutilise DCRAW code to access the RAW undemosaiced data (in this thread we talked about that and Jonathan Wienke even pointed that a DNG output would be a very good approach). But this guy became too busy with other projects so I went on alone and chose a demosaiced approach.

You give me new ideas for improvement. I have no idea of the DNG format, is it easy to build a DNG file from scratch? I think RAW formats are indeed quite complicated.

Just curious, are you Iliah Borg?

Regards.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185450\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'd love to have an application that would allow me to manipulate the raw data and stuff it back in the original raw file, I just don't have the coding background.  IMO it's an application that is sorely missing and much needed.  There are so many tweaks that are better done on raw data and are not implemented well or at all in raw converters; HDR is but one.  It would be so nice to be able to preprocess the raw data, and then have the ability to run the preprocessed raw file through one's favorite converter.  

If you are able to implement such a feature, that would be great.  The code must be there implicitly in dcraw -- it can output an undemosaiced .pgm from the original raw data, it should therefore be possible to take a .pgm file and insert the same data (post manipulation) back in the raw file (or rather a duplicate of it).
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emil

ejmartin

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« Reply #196 on: March 30, 2008, 04:29:44 pm »

Quote
Regarding this I have a question for you if you don't mind: to apply the gamma to a calculated {R,G,B} linear pixel I plan to do (gamma=2.2 for simplicity, all normalised values):

1. Calculate Y = k1*R + k2*G + k3*B according to some luminance k1+k2+k3=1.0 weighted average model

2. To apply gamma to luminance: Y' = Y^(1/2.2) = (k1*R + k2*G + k3*B )^(1/2.2)=K*Y  so K?
K=Y'/Y=Y^(1/2.2-1)=(k1*R + k2*G + k3*B )^(1/2.2-1)

3. So finally perform:
R' = R * K
G' = G * K
B' = B * K
Do you think this simple approach is right? I am fairly sure I am preserving tone (ratio between R, G and B is kept). But can this way to apply the gamma have some undesired consequence or caution? maybe related to the colour profile used...
Best regards.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You can find the equations for converting among color spaces at

[a href=\"http://brucelindbloom.com/]http://brucelindbloom.com/[/url]

under the "Math" section.
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emil

Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #197 on: March 30, 2008, 04:39:22 pm »

Quote
You can find the equations for converting among color spaces at

http://brucelindbloom.com/

under the "Math" section.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185496\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Then I should do:

sRGB(gamma=1.0) -> XYZ
XYZ -> sRGB(gamma=2.2) ?

but if I am not missing something, in the end this means:
R' = R^(1/2.2)
G' = G^(1/2.2)
B' = B^(1/2.2)

which does not preserve the ratio between the colours, so tones change, don't they?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 04:43:08 pm by GLuijk »
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Iliah

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« Reply #198 on: March 30, 2008, 07:10:13 pm »

Dear Guillermo,

As far as my experience is, in floating point the precision of calculations is quite enough not to bother with gamma. In fact, any unnecessary calculations like gamma effect the resulting image in a negative way.
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #199 on: March 30, 2008, 07:50:02 pm »

Quote
Dear Guillermo,

As far as my experience is, in floating point the precision of calculations is quite enough not to bother with gamma. In fact, any unnecessary calculations like gamma effect the resulting image in a negative way.

Right, but I necessarily have to go to 16-bit integer TIFF in the end. What I want to do then is perform gamma before this final rounding so that the overexposed images will fill the levels at the low end of the histogram, and the gamma will prevent those levels from aggregation.
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