MFDB Price Expectations

[Mort54]

Hi All. For the last few weeks I've been shopping around for a MF system, and the quotes are finally starting to trickle in. Obviously I can't reveal the prices I'm being quoted, and I'm not asking you to either, but I'm wondering what my pricing expectations should be. In reading many posts on this forum and others, I get the impression that substantial discounts off of book or list pricing is common. I'm mostly interested in a 39 MP system. What kinds of discounts over book or list pricing should I be expecting? I want to be fair to the VAR, but I also don't want to pay more than the going price.

Here's some pricing that is publicly available on the internet and on this forum, and for want of better information, I'm treating this as my book or list pricing. I would expect any quote I got to beat these prices. My question is "How much lower than these prices should I expect to fairly pay?"

- P45+ = $32,990 w/ 3 year extended warranty ($29,990 w/o extended warranty)

- e75 = $32K + $2397 for Rollei adapter (don't know if this includes extended warranty, or what other adapters cost)

- H3D-39 = $31,995 (includes H3D body, viewfinder, 39 MP back, and 80mm lens). As far as I can tell, it only includes a one year warranty. If I subtract out the cost of an H2 kit without the back ($7999 list price), that suggests the H3D-39 back is worth about $24K (this is a bit unfair, but it's the only public pricing I can get my hands on).

[doncody]

Hi All. For the last few weeks I've been shopping around for a MF system, and the quotes are finally starting to trickle in. Obviously I can't reveal the prices I'm being quoted, and I'm not asking you to either, but I'm wondering what my pricing expectations should be. In reading many posts on this forum and others, I get the impression that substantial discounts off of book or list pricing is common. I'm mostly interested in a 39 MP system. What kinds of discounts over book or list pricing should I be expecting? I want to be fair to the VAR, but I also don't want to pay more than the going price.

Here's some pricing that is publicly available on the internet and on this forum, and for want of better information, I'm treating this as my book or list pricing. I would expect any quote I got to beat these prices. My question is "How much lower than these prices should I expect to fairly pay?"

- P45+ = $32,990 w/ 3 year extended warranty ($29,990 w/o extended warranty)

- e75 = $32K + $2397 for Rollei adapter (don't know if this includes extended warranty, or what other adapters cost)

- H3D-39 = $31,995 (includes H3D body, viewfinder, 39 MP back, and 80mm lens). As far as I can tell, it only includes a one year warranty. If I subtract out the cost of an H2 kit without the back ($7999 list price), that suggests the H3D-39 back is worth about $24K (this is a bit unfair, but it's the only public pricing I can get my hands on).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Mort,

Calumet shows the CFH-39 and CF-39 backs (what's the difference?)both at $29,995 respectively, and the H3D-39 kit at $31,995.

Best,
Don

[thsinar]

Dear Hans,

the Sinar price you mention is with a normal 3-year warranty period (2 contractual years + 1 year free by simply regsitering as a Sinar Owner).

- All our prices are always for a 3-year warranty, for all our products.

- We DO NOT and NEVER give a 1-year warranty and then propose to the custmer to extend this warranty by another 1 or 2 years by paying an additional fee.

Knowing that, I would contact your local Sinar distributor/dealer for a real quote.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

- P45+ = $32,990 w/ 3 year extended warranty ($29,990 w/o extended warranty)

- e75 = $32K + $2397 for Rollei adapter (don't know if this includes extended warranty, or what other adapters cost)

- H3D-39 = $31,995 (includes H3D body, viewfinder, 39 MP back, and 80mm lens). As far as I can tell, it only includes a one year warranty. If I subtract out the cost of an H2 kit without the back ($7999 list price), that suggests the H3D-39 back is worth about $24K (this is a bit unfair, but it's the only public pricing I can get my hands on).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[ternst]

Mort:

I don't know where all of this cloak and dagger BS comes from but it is pretty thick when trying to price MFDB and it is frustrating, especially for someone like me who does not have a dealer in my state, or anywhere near me. I paid about $28,000 recently for a P-45+, Mamiya mount, with the extended warranty package, plus got 15% off of any new Mamiya equipment I ordered with the back. I may have been screwed but if no one is willing to talk about it how would I know? These aren't government secrets we're buying, just a gosh darn camera back and I don't understand why everyone is so closed-mouthed about it, but I guess that is just part of the game...

Tim Ernst in Arkansas

[thsinar]

Dear Tim,

There isn't any "closed-mouth" attitude from Sinar when it comes to prices and quotations. You can anytime contact our distributor SBI and its sales responsibles, either Gregory King ([email protected]) or Matt Lapointe ([email protected]): they will certainly either provide you prices or then direct you to the right dealer nearest to your place.

Best regards,
Thierry

Mort:

I don't know where all of this cloak and dagger BS comes from but it is pretty thick when trying to price MFDB and it is frustrating, especially for someone like me who does not have a dealer in my state, or anywhere near me. I paid about $28,000 recently for a P-45+, Mamiya mount, with the extended warranty package, plus got 15% off of any new Mamiya equipment I ordered with the back. I may have been screwed but if no one is willing to talk about it how would I know? These aren't government secrets we're buying, just a gosh darn camera back and I don't understand why everyone is so closed-mouthed about it, but I guess that is just part of the game...

Tim Ernst in Arkansas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112995\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Mort54]

Dear Hans,

the Sinar price you mention is with a normal 3-year warranty period (2 contractual years + 1 year free by simply regsitering as a Sinar Owner).

- All our prices are always for a 3-year warranty, for all our products.

- We DO NOT and NEVER give a 1-year warranty and then propose to the custmer to extend this warranty by another 1 or 2 years by paying an additional fee.

Knowing that, I would contact your local Sinar distributor/dealer for a real quote.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello Thierry. Thanks for your input. I have had a request for quote out for several weeks now for a Hy6 system with the e75 back, but so far I've gotten no response. I'm working that problem with SinarBron, but it seems the Hy6 pricing is still not settled here in the US, and that is holding things up. It's very frustrating, but like I said, it's being worked. It's good to hear, tho, that Sinar's standard warranty is for 3 years.

Regards,
Hans.

[thsinar]

Nothing to thank, Hans!

We are aware that the Hy6 has no definitive pricing yet, either in the US nor elsewhere: It is certainly not our distributor's failure and nothing to blame them on this (rather Sinar to be blamed). This is going to change in a few days with information by Sinar being sent to all of our distributors worldwide, containing all the prices.

Best regards,
Thierry

Hello Thierry. Thanks for your input. I have had a request for quote out for several weeks now for a Hy6 system with the e75 back, but so far I've gotten no response. I'm working that problem with SinarBron, but it seems the Hy6 pricing is still not settled here in the US, and that is holding things up. It's very frustrating, but like I said, it's being worked. It's good to hear, tho, that Sinar's standard warranty is for 3 years.

Regards,
Hans.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113022\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Mort54]

Mort:

I don't know where all of this cloak and dagger BS comes from but it is pretty thick when trying to price MFDB and it is frustrating, especially for someone like me who does not have a dealer in my state, or anywhere near me. I paid about $28,000 recently for a P-45+, Mamiya mount, with the extended warranty package, plus got 15% off of any new Mamiya equipment I ordered with the back. I may have been screwed but if no one is willing to talk about it how would I know? These aren't government secrets we're buying, just a gosh darn camera back and I don't understand why everyone is so closed-mouthed about it, but I guess that is just part of the game...

Tim Ernst in Arkansas

Hi Tim. Thanks for your reply, and especially for sharing pricing with me. Dealing with an out-of-state VAR may actually be a benefit for you, since you don't have to pay state sales tax. The Phase One VAR that covers my region is located in the same state as me, and I am not getting pricing as good as you got (I think the VAR is giving me fair pricing, but the state sales tax puts them at an automatic disadvantage).

As you probably know, Phase One enforces a regional sales model, so VARs outside your region are not able to bid their best price. In addition to the quote I got from my regional VAR, I also got a quote from Capture Integration, but they told me that since I am also getting a quote from my regional VAR, their hands are tied. I'm told by others, however, that if I raise a big enough stink over that, Phase may relax that rule. So far I haven't been able to determine if that is true. In any event, I plan to talk to Phase about it, with the hope that they'll allow me to get a more competitive requote from Capture Integration free of regional restrictions.

I understand the need for a VAR based sales model, and the benefits they offer, but sometimes it can seem a bit like haggeling with a car salesman, i.e. you never know if you're getting a good deal or if you're getting screwed. I will most likely make a counter-offer to my regional Phase One VAR, and also ask Phase One to let me get a second competitive bid from a VAR outside my region. I've also gotten a quote for a Hassy system from another VAR, and as I told Thierry, I'm expecting a quote from my regional Sinar VAR any day now (I hope).

Thanks again for your reply,
Hans.

[godtfred]

- P45+ = $32,990 w/ 3 year extended warranty ($29,990 w/o extended warranty)

- e75 = $32K + $2397 for Rollei adapter (don't know if this includes extended warranty, or what other adapters cost)

- H3D-39 = $31,995 (includes H3D body, viewfinder, 39 MP back, and 80mm lens).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The price of a two year warranty extension on the H3D is 2,489.98 USD here in Norway. (Making it a total of three years warranty.)

I don't know if the 3 year program is as extensive as phase one's, i just got the price out of a dealers online price list...

-axel

[ternst]

Hans:

That's exactly the sort of runaround I was talking about - since there is no dealer for any brand MFDB anywhere near me I should be able to buy from the dealer of my choice in any part of the country. Isn't this the USA? Good grief. It is just a camera. On the other hand, they don't have to give any discount, nor are we forced to pay the obscene prices they ask (we can do without), yet it is terrific to have such a great imaging device to work with!

And as far as sales tax goes, I am required by state law to pay sales tax no matter where I purchase from so it doesn't matter to me where I purchase. Many states have this same sales tax law so they will get you one way or the other (they come around and do an audit every three years and you have to pay up for all out-of-state purchases that were not taxed upfront).

Tim Ernst in Arkansas

[hubell]

Dear Hans,

the Sinar price you mention is with a normal 3-year warranty period (2 contractual years + 1 year free by simply regsitering as a Sinar Owner).

- All our prices are always for a 3-year warranty, for all our products.

- We DO NOT and NEVER give a 1-year warranty and then propose to the custmer to extend this warranty by another 1 or 2 years by paying an additional fee.

Knowing that, I would contact your local Sinar distributor/dealer for a real quote.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Is the Sinar 3 yr. warranty a "hot swap" warranty that guarantees a 24 hr. turnaround on a loaner back anywhere in the world if your back goes down?

[SeanBK]

Tim et al,
    That is exactly what I have mentioned periodically, but I get a total silent treatment from sellers & the past buyers!! Go figure!
    Currently I am in process of buying a new SUV. I am trying to decide between Porsche Cayennne, Range Rover Sport or BMW X5( or X3 euro delivery). So I go to
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/vi...20Rover%20Sport
  Also to prices paid forums for Porsche & BMW, including any problems, repair issues & lemon laws. These forums gets visited by dealers, past owners & is very civilised. This along with what the dealer's cost is from
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/landrover/...s.html?action=1
  one can easily decipher, what you should pay & what others pay  , BUT for $30k & up digital backs, all the people who claim to use it so...o professionally/efficiently won't even share what they paid last year or even two years back. Only thing I can think is the photographer who post here wants to protect their turf, while the dealer who post here wants to sell their backs to new buyers.  A terrible alliance!!
      If you really break it down any back, it is nothing more than a box that takes what Kodak or Dalsa sensor captures from someones else's camera/lens & convert the data to what the photographer desires, all along following what the sensor manufactures stipulates. I do know what I am talking @, as I wrote software programs & worked on computers, while doing my Master's in Engineering (I got my Master's in 1971 !!).
      So Tim, the cahunas are sorely lacking in M.F.D.B forum. You can ask anything but don't ask the price what we paid, that IS the title of this subsection in L-L forum is. Like you I am also looking to purchase a new one-I have older DB, but in meantime I will spend my money on 14MPG SUV.

[Mort54]

....BUT for $30k & up digital backs, all the people who claim to use it so...o professionally/efficiently won't even share what they paid last year or even two years back.

Hi Sean. In fairness, most people are legally obligated not to reveal their pricing. Each VAR is a business, struggeling to make a profit just like any other business, and their pricing is usually considered proprietary information. I wasn't expecting to get many people, if any, to reveal the pricing they got. I was simply hoping for some general guidance on what I should hold out for.

Hans.

[SeanBK]

Mort,
      I see where you are coming from, but when one buys ANY product, the seller cannot enforce that the buyer shall not reveal the price of the purchase to anyone. They might try to slide that clause into the sale receipt, but it is not legally enforcable. If the dealer were preparing these kinda agreements then they would have to "sit down with my lawyer will meet with your lawyer & then we will discuss the delivery in next 6months, when we receive it".. That IS the most far fetched legal binding sale agreement. They might suggest, "Hey, I am giving this to you at my cost    (though my profit per back is cost of Nikon D2X, while poor slobs who sell Nikon makes only 10% of D2X max). Givemeabreak!!!
    They are in business of selling a $30k+ product, which is obsolete in 18months. Used $30k+ backs in 3months would loose close to minimum 30% of it's value and ALL the backs have some kinda problems. The first & foremost requirement of a Pro-Photographer is not only quality, but time sensitivity, yet the reliabilty of these product is always a big question mark.
    I don't buy that after forking over $30k+, we can't discuss price paid....kahunas ...they have & we don't.

[william]

Huh?  My dealer never asked me not to reveal the price for my P30. And I don't recall seeing anything in the contract (the sales receipt) regarding some kind of non-disclosure of price.

Hi Sean. In fairness, most people are legally obligated not to reveal their pricing.
Hans.
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[hubell]

Huh?  My dealer never asked me not to reveal the price for my P30. And I don't recall seeing anything in the contract (the sales receipt) regarding some kind of non-disclosure of price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course there is no legal restriction on one's ability to disclose publicly what they paid for a MFDB. However, there are two distinct reasons why people tend not to share that information freely. First, they may be anxious about finding out that they paid significantly more than others did for exactly the same product. Fear of being embarrassed. Second, they may feel that they negotiated a very attractive package price from the dealer, they have developed a relationship with the dealer that they will be relying upon for service, and they feel they will be boxing that dealer into a corner in his future price negotiations with other prospective buyers. Fear of embarrassing the dealer.

[Mort54]

OK, apparently I'm wrong about there being a general legal prohibition regarding revealing pricing information. In looking over my quotes, I have one that clearly states the information is considered confidential, and another quote that doesn't say anything on the subject. I don't have access to the two other quotes I've gotten so far, and I don't recall if they have such a statement.

Can such confidentiality statements be legally enforced? Probably not, but all the same I feel a personal obligation not to bandy about such information. If for no other reason, I want to have a good working relationship with whoever I end up going with, and tossing around their pricing information on the internet for all of their competitors to see doesn't seem appropriate. However, as long as the name of the VAR isn't associated with the price information, then I guess I can't see any harm is providing pricing.

Regards,
Hans.

[thsinar]

The 3-year warranty is a general Sinar policy, since always and applied worldwide: we do not apply different standards of warranty and ask money for extensions.

As for "hot swap": this is dependent on the local distributor. Most of them do provide a backup unit.

Best regards,
Thierry

Is the Sinar 3 yr. warranty a "hot swap" warranty that guarantees a 24 hr. turnaround on a loaner back anywhere in the world if your back goes down?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[pprdigital]

Ok, I'll weigh in. Do I really want to....Probably not a good place for me to be.... Nonetheless, I am not afraid....

As a dealer, I have no standard selling price on a MFDB. The only standards are:

*The MSRP
*Our dealer cost

What I do with those figures is up to me and the negotiation between me and my client. My objective is to provide a price that my customer is comfortable with that will satisfy the resource requirements of our service. End of story.

As such, I really don't care if one of my customers tells anyone what price they paid me, because I can assure you, it is not the lowest price you can get. At times, I am confronted by pricing from dealers that have priced a product lower than I have and am asked to match or beat the price. Depending on what the competing price is, I am open to taking part in that. But if the price is too low (and this is usually a price from a dealer that does not offer anywhere near the level of service that we do), the customer has the choice of saving some bucks, or receiving premium service on a premium product that (as all can attest to) will likely have some hiccups throughout the years.

I don't concern myself with what other dealers sell their MFDB's at. If they are selling significantly below my comfort zone, they either don't offer premium service, or MFDB's are not a core part of their business. In other words, they could drop that part of their business and not bat an eye.

The only negative for me in regard to publicizing selling prices of MFDB's, is the perpetuation that the lowest price doesn't have a negative affect on the photographer's ability to utilize the product to efficiently get the work done.

Steve Hendrix
Profesional Photo Resources
www.ppratlanta.com

[Mort54]

Ok, I'll weigh in. Do I really want to....Probably not a good place for me to be.... Nonetheless, I am not afraid....

As a dealer, I have no standard selling price on a MFDB. The only standards are:

*The MSRP
*Our dealer cost

What I do with those figures is up to me and the negotiation between me and my client. My objective is to provide a price that my customer is comfortable with that will satisfy the resource requirements of our service. End of story.

As such, I really don't care if one of my customers tells anyone what price they paid me, because I can assure you, it is not the lowest price you can get. At times, I am confronted by pricing from dealers that have priced a product lower than I have and am asked to match or beat the price. Depending on what the competing price is, I am open to taking part in that. But if the price is too low (and this is usually a price from a dealer that does not offer anywhere near the level of service that we do), the customer has the choice of saving some bucks, or receiving premium service on a premium product that (as all can attest to) will likely have some hiccups throughout the years.

I don't concern myself with what other dealers sell their MFDB's at. If they are selling significantly below my comfort zone, they either don't offer premium service, or MFDB's are not a core part of their business. In other words, they could drop that part of their business and not bat an eye.

The only negative for me in regard to publicizing selling prices of MFDB's, is the perpetuation that the lowest price doesn't have a negative affect on the photographer's ability to utilize the product to efficiently get the work done.

Steve Hendrix
Profesional Photo Resources
www.ppratlanta.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113174\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Steve. Thanks for offering your insight on this. By the way, I was talking to LeafAmerica today and your name came up as someone I should be talking to. If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll give you a call.

Regards,
Hans.