Curious Printer Experiment

[[email protected]]

I have a box of Inkpress Pro Silky Photo paper I want to use for a project. Before going to the trouble of making a custom profile I decided to do an experiment.  I use a copy of Andrew Rodney's Test Print in Adobe RGB for a first print on a new paper.  I brought the file into the LR print module, set up for Epson Premium Semi-Gloss and high quality, and to Adobe RGB mode in the printer color settings.  Instead of loading a paper ICC, I chose the adobe RGB ICC profile and let LR manage the color to the printer through that profile.

I cannot tell any difference between the color of the print made and another one made on another paper with a similar surface using a custom profile.  Both prints compare closely other prints of the file I have made on similar surface papers.

Hypothetically, could a color managed workflow for papers without a good ICC profile, and especially or a small project where you do not wish to go to the trouble of making one,  look like this.  Use a hardware calibrated monitor in an Adobe RGB preset mode. Work in Adobe RGB in Photoshop. Save all files to Print in Adobe RGB.  Print in the above manner in LR through the Adobe RGB ICC to the P-900 set  in Adobe RGB mode?

[Czornyj]

Of course. Similar papers have similar (or even the same) coatings, and pigment inkjet is quite forgiving. Despite having a collection of spectrophotometers (couple of i1 Pro's, iSis, MYIRO-1)  I'm usually printing using factory Canon profiles that are decent.

[Kyle Jackson]

Hypothetically, could a color managed workflow for papers without a good ICC profile, and especially or a small project where you do not wish to go to the trouble of making one,  look like this.  Use a hardware calibrated monitor in an Adobe RGB preset mode. Work in Adobe RGB in Photoshop. Save all files to Print in Adobe RGB.  Print in the above manner in LR through the Adobe RGB ICC to the P-900 set  in Adobe RGB mode?

I'm having trouble following what you're doing without screenshots of your settings, but if you're not using a colour profile for your specific printer/ink/paper combination, then it sounds like it's not actually colour mgmt.

The point is to use good colour profiles that represent your printers well so that you get the most out of them, consistently. If you just throw random colour profiles at it instead, that's not colour mgmt (in spirit, at least). At that point you might as well just choose "let printer manage colours" instead of your app, if you want the "easy mode".

I feel it's pointless to speculate how widely the results might or might not vary when doing it as you suggest, never mind how to predict and control it (soft-proofing). I think the time and energy is best put into simply using the suitable profiles.

Caveat: I am somewhat spoiled by printers with built-in spectros to profile any paper I use with a few mouse clicks. So it's very little work for me.

[digitaldog]

I'm having trouble following what you're doing without screenshots of your settings, but if you're not using a colour profile for your specific printer/ink/paper combination, then it sounds like it's not actually colour mgmt.

Sounds like Printer Manages Color. And as such, you're right, no soft proofing. Also, depending on the OS and other factors, data may be funneled into sRGB. Not ideal but not a poke in the eye either, PMC can provide acceptable output.

Since the OP's test was done in Lightroom Classic, I'd recommend duplicating it in Photoshop (for reasons we can discuss).

[Kyle Jackson]

Sounds like Printer Manages Color. And as such, you're right, no soft proofing. Also, depending on the OS and other factors, data may be funneled into sRGB. Not ideal but not a poke in the eye either, PMC can provide acceptable output.

Since the OP's test was done in Lightroom Classic, I'd recommend duplicating it in Photoshop (for reasons we can discuss).

Yeah that's kinda the feel I was getting from it too, if using something "generic" like aRGB each time. That's still colour-managed ofc, in the consistency sense (in case I suggested too strongly above that it's not).

In this case the source image is already in aRGB and if the papers are indeed very similar as suggested, then it makes sense many prints could look very similar, if one isn't fussy or is simply happy with the results.

...At least until the "why doesn't A match B?" questions pop up...  Repeated trauma from all those rabbit holes is probably why I instinctively objected lol.

[[email protected]]

It was just an experiment.  I have this box of paper that I really do not want to take the time to make a profile for, and just want to use it for a few simple projects where I need the color to be close but not perfect.  The file is Andrew's Adobe RGB test file.  I imported the image into my LR library, opened it in the print module.  I remembered a post on The Online Photographer where, Ctein was using the Epson RGB mode to print with good results.  So I decided to try it.  In the printer settings, instead on no color management I set it to Adobe RGB. I thought. well if everything is Adobe RGB why not use that as a printer profile in LR.

The result was an excellent print that closely matches the screen and other prints I have made on similar papers using a profile.  I was just wondering if anyone else had maybe had any experience with this. I was shocked the result was this good.  I plan to evaluate this further with some of my own prints. I always save a flattened TIF in Adobe RGB.  I hardly ever print from Photoshop but will be happy to try the experiment there as well.

[eronald]

It was just an experiment.  I have this box of paper that I really do not want to take the time to make a profile for, and just want to use it for a few simple projects where I need the color to be close but not perfect.  The file is Andrew's Adobe RGB test file.  I imported the image into my LR library, opened it in the print module.  I remembered a post on The Online Photographer where, Ctein was using the Epson RGB mode to print with good results.  So I decided to try it.  In the printer settings, instead on no color management I set it to Adobe RGB. I thought. well if everything is Adobe RGB why not use that as a printer profile in LR.

The result was an excellent print that closely matches the screen and other prints I have made on similar papers using a profile.  I was just wondering if anyone else had maybe had any experience with this. I was shocked the result was this good.  I plan to evaluate this further with some of my own prints. I always save a flattened TIF in Adobe RGB.  I hardly ever print from Photoshop but will be happy to try the experiment there as well.

As I don't understand the complicated stuff like Andrew, maybe I can explain the simple stuff. Printer manages color applies a paper profile (if you have the right printer driver settings). As an earlier poster opined, many common papers are actually quite similar, and so doing printer manages color on a file in a typical working space such as AdobeRGB causes the OS or the driver to agree on a color conversion appropriate for the paper set in the driver, which is usually quite appropriate for another similar paper. On Mac the conversion usually invokes a profile which you can inspect in Colorsync Utility app.

I guess this is what most consumers do. Buy some glossy paper, put it in their printer, press "printer manages color" and live happily ever after.

Edmund

[digitaldog]

I was shocked the result was this good.

What you didn’t get: control over a rendering intent, soft proofing to select an intent based on the image, with that rendering along with output-specific edits using paper/ink simulation, Black Point Compensation, or a choice of a profile. But yes, it can work well. It isn't ideal, but for many, it is good enough.

[eronald]

What you didn’t get: control over a rendering intent, soft proofing to select an intent based on the image, with that rendering along with output-specific edits using paper/ink simulation, Black Point Compensation, or a choice of a profile. But yes, it can work well. It isn't ideal, but for many, it is good enough.

So true. But can you blame the OP for not being eager to press the shiny, big ,round fire-engine-red HURTME(tm) button that is color management? 

[digitaldog]

But can you blame the OP for not being eager to press the shiny, big ,round fire-engine-red HURTME(tm) button that is color management? 

It doesn't hurt all of us.

[[email protected]]

I appreciate the comments on my post.

I have been a firm believer in and user of color management for years.  I have even invested in a new hardware calibrated monitor in the hopes of improving my color results. I have a well used copy of your color management book, Andrew,  and I have watched all your videos. I even set up my Solux print inspection light as recommended on your Website.  I appreciate your very helpful comments that you have made on my recent posts.

This was just an experiment with unexpectedly good results.  So good that I will be doing further evaluations.

[[email protected]]

I have had time to make a P-900 profile for the Pro Silky paper. A print (AR's Adobe RGB test file) made from Lightroom using the profile on the paper looks very close to a soft proof on my screen, and looks good in general.  I then made a print with Lightroom set to managed by printer with the printer in Adobe RGB mode.  That print looks terrible.  I then set Adobe RGB 1998 icc as the printer profile in Lightroom and printed to the printer in Adobe RGB mode.  The print looks very similar to print made with the profile, except in my opinion the skin tones look slightly better.  I do not see much difference in the other areas.  I have printed a couple of my own images both ways and I think I prefer the Adobe RGB for people, and the profile for landscapes, but the differences are subtle and only visible by direct comparison.  The prints look good either way.

I have to conclude that using the Adobe RGB display profile as the printing profile is doing a fine job a transforming the data for the printer even if this behavior is unexpected. Prints made without it using the P-900 Adobe RGB mode are not good at all!  I have not tried it with a file that is not in Adobe RGB, however. 

[digitaldog]

I have to conclude that using the Adobe RGB display profile as the printing profile is doing a fine job a transforming the data for the printer even if this behavior is unexpected.

That absolutely is not what is taking place. EVEN with Printer Manages Color. Adobe RGB (1998) Working Space is being used as the source color space for conversion to an output profile (and not ideally, depending on some factors) with a lack of control by the user.
If you could print using no color management, and sent Adobe RGB (1998) to the printer, you'd see just how hideous it would print.

[Kyle Jackson]

I have had time to make a P-900 profile for the Pro Silky paper. A print (AR's Adobe RGB test file) made from Lightroom using the profile on the paper looks very close to a soft proof on my screen, and looks good in general.  I then made a print with Lightroom set to managed by printer with the printer in Adobe RGB mode.  That print looks terrible.  I then set Adobe RGB 1998 icc as the printer profile in Lightroom and printed to the printer in Adobe RGB mode.  The print looks very similar to print made with the profile, except in my opinion the skin tones look slightly better.  I do not see much difference in the other areas.  I have printed a couple of my own images both ways and I think I prefer the Adobe RGB for people, and the profile for landscapes, but the differences are subtle and only visible by direct comparison.  The prints look good either way.

I have to conclude that using the Adobe RGB display profile as the printing profile is doing a fine job a transforming the data for the printer even if this behavior is unexpected. Prints made without it using the P-900 Adobe RGB mode are not good at all!  I have not tried it with a file that is not in Adobe RGB, however.

Hi, your first example makes sense to me, but after that I don't understand what you're trying to achieve. It doesn't make sense to me to use a display profile in place of a printer profile when using "app manages colour". 

[digitaldog]

It doesn't make sense to me to use a display profile in place of a printer profile when using "app manages colour". 

He isn't as I attempted to explain today.

[Kyle Jackson]

He isn't as I attempted to explain today.

I think I got lost in the settings descriptions then... It sounded to me like his 3 most recent tests were:
1) App managed, with printer profile
2) Printer managed, with "printer in aRGB mode" (=?)
3) App managed again, but with aRGB instead of printer profile

(Edit my earlier: I probably shouldn't have said a "display profile", I simply meant the aRGB space profile.)

[digitaldog]

3) App managed again, but with aRGB instead of printer profile

Here's what you get:

[Kyle Jackson]

Here's what you get:

Lol! Well that's reassuring because I share Adobe's reaction to that idea!

Ok I tried my best to follow along at home and think I finally follow their 3 tests now as:
1) LR set to printer profile, driver set to app managed.
2) LR set to printer profile, driver set to printer managed, with source profile as aRGB
3) LR set to aRGB profile, driver set to printer managed, with source profile as aRGB

Caveat I don't print from LR, and my software is ancient v3.6 lol, so it took me foreverrr to find the CM settings (they're not in the menus, they're in the Print module's right-side UI panel). And then since I've never used printer manages colour, I didn't know what the OP meant by "setting the printer to aRGB" until I found it in the driver (at least on my HP Z3100/3200s).

Anyhow if I'm finallyyy on the same page for their tests, then option 1 is still the only one that makes sense to me. And that seems reinforced by LR's own warning note against anything like options 2 and 3 (see screenshot). And ofc now that I've seen the settings in context so I can follow the convo, I get what you were pointing at now.

Which I guess leaves us with our initial reactions for valid options:
1) LR set to printer profile, driver set to app managed.
2) LR set to printer managed, driver set to printer managed, source profile as (choose one).
With number 2 ofc being more limited as already mentioned.

[[email protected]]

To clarify, the three test prints were made as follows:
I selected Andrew Rodney's adobe RGB test print in Lightroom and opened it in the print module.

1.  Set Lightroom to manage color and used the printer icc profile for the paper I generated, and set the printer to color management off in the driver drop down.
2.  Set lightroom to Printer manages color, no profile and the printer to Adobe RGB mode (same drop down in the driver).
3.  Set lightroom to manage color and used the Adobe Lightroom 1998 icc profile as the printer profile and set the printer to Adobe RGB mode.

I got no warnings from Lightroom that I was doing something not recommended!  All other Lightroom and printer settings were the same.  The results were detailed in my last post.

I am no expert in color management, but I have printed for years and followed the experts advice with profiled monitors and icc profiles (I have Andrew's book and it is well worn from use). I simply tried an experiment originally to see if I could avoid making a profile after reading about Ctein using printer manages color on The Online Photographer blog.  My original experiment was the first post.

I decided to make a profile anyway and ran the second experiment with the results I reported in my last post.

In the first experiment, I did not expect 2 to work and it did not!  I thought maybe Ctein was successful because he uses a Mac and I use a PC.  I thought, well the file is in adobe RGB, what if I use that as a profile in LR so I tried 3 and it worked!  I did not expect it to work at all, and  thought I would be wasting another piece of paper and some ink.

I do not know how, but adding the Adobe RGB profile in Lightroom works. at least for me  Unexpectedly, the prints look good and that is what matters to me!

[digitaldog]

I do not know how, but adding the Adobe RGB profile in Lightroom works. at least for me  The prints look great and that is what matters to me!

You end up getting Printer Manages Color without the PS warning. You can't print without color management in Adobe apps anymore (well you can if you can get Adobe Color Print Utility to work).