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Author Topic: Denoise in LR - a step backward  (Read 44909 times)

PeterAit

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Denoise in LR - a step backward
« on: July 04, 2025, 02:02:38 pm »

I am developing the healthy dislike for the latest denoise implementation. Not the results, which are just as good as always, but the interface in LR. No more quick preview that made it easy to decide before committing to a 20-30 second process. And having no separate output file is a flaw IMO. No disk space is saved as I understand the pixel data are saved elsewhere, just not as a LR-accessible form.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2025, 07:42:39 pm »

. . . having no separate output file is a flaw IMO. No disk space is saved as I understand the pixel data are saved elsewhere, just not as a LR-accessible form.

I'm inclined to disagree.  I don't suspect Adobe's primary motivation was to save disk space: mass storage is inexpensive these days.  But preserving an end-to-end raw workflow is a win from my perspective.  Not only being able to revisit the amount of noise reduction, but also the ability to take advantage of future improvements in the entire image-processing pipeline without having to recreate intermediate files.

mcbroomf

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2025, 07:27:22 am »

Biggest problem IMO is that LRC keeps the Denoise window open when processing any number of files and this locks you out of LRC until done.  Not too bad for a single or few files but if I want to process 50 or so then I'm out for 25 mins.  Previous version would close the window and you could continue work on LRC and monitor on the progress bar.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2025, 06:43:34 pm »

It requires a high end graphics card to do it faster.

kers

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2025, 07:28:28 am »

Does this new workflow needs you to use and keep the catalogue?

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digitaldog

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2025, 08:48:30 am »

Does this new workflow needs you to use and keep the catalogue?
There is no workflow in LRC without a catalog.
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kers

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2025, 05:18:46 am »

Well I use it as such- and it works for me.
I don't want to be a hostage of LR that tells me how to move my photos around.
I have the finder for that.
There are better and more easy ways to keep track of your photos.
I have 17 archive Harddisks and can find anything with Neofinder.
25€ no subscription
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digitaldog

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2025, 08:35:28 am »

Well I use it as such- and it works for me.
You use LRC without a catalog; how?
Maybe you wish to clarify:
Does this new workflow needs you to use and keep the catalogue?
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PeterAit

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2025, 02:55:56 pm »

You use LRC without a catalog; how?
Maybe you wish to clarify:

My guess is that he has a catalog, as he must, but does not knowingly use it for anything. But it is beyond me how you can develop or even view a photo without selecting it in the catalog.
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Paul2660

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2025, 07:56:22 am »

At first I also did not like the new implementation of Denoise. However I have grown to prefer it. You can now copy the Denoise setting to multiple raw files (for example a focus stack) I don’t remember that being possible and instead you had to create a new dng for each image you wanted to use Denoise on. You have a slider after the process has run so you still can alter the output. I prefer this over the previous. I also like not having a separate dng image for each implementation of Denoise but I agree that for others it would be nice if Adobe added a checkbox to allow creation of the dng. One other note on my old M1 MacBook Pro it seems to run faster.

Paul
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Chris Kern

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2025, 01:53:48 pm »

I also like not having a separate dng image for each implementation of Denoise but I agree that for others it would be nice if Adobe added a checkbox to allow creation of the dng.

Is there a particular reason you want to work on a rendered version of the image rather than the raw file?  If not, making a virtual copy and applying Denoise to it would allow you to keep the original and denoised versions logically separate without creating an additional file.

digitaldog

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2025, 03:20:31 pm »

The "Problem" with VCs is that they are proprietary within the catalog and do not really exist. If your catalog goes belly up, so do your VCs. I don't care about storage space, it is cheap. I care more about my data, which is why I'll often export a VC as a DNG, a real document I can backup in multiple locations and have access to OUTSIDE the catalog.
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Paul2660

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2025, 09:51:43 pm »

Is there a particular reason you want to work on a rendered version of the image rather than the raw file?  If not, making a virtual copy and applying Denoise to it would allow you to keep the original and denoised versions logically separate without creating an additional file.

Not sure how to answer this I guess our workflows are different as noise reduction is usually part of the workflow. I don’t see how the Denoise process has rendered anything more than any other tool in Lr. It’s still a raw file till you export it or chose to edit it in Photoshop at least I believe it is. And there is a check box to just turn it off.

Paul
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kers

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2025, 02:03:59 am »

You use LRC without a catalog; how?
Maybe you wish to clarify:

Well OK, I have a temporal catalog that i throw away ever now and then: I use LR stricktly to develop a load of images. The catalog i do not use as such.
I have better / more flexiable ways to find my images.

now I can just dump the NR DNG's to the trash after i have developed my photos. I only keep the original raw files with the xmp.
my question is : with the new way of dealing with NR do I need to Keep the catalogue?

If yes, I wil have to turn to an other NR.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2025, 06:30:47 am »

now I can just dump the NR DNG's to the trash after i have developed my photos. I only keep the original raw files with the xmp.
my question is : with the new way of dealing with NR do I need to Keep the catalogue?

The denoise information is stored in the xmp as a very large chuck of unreadable data (binary) with the tag "Table". You don't need to keep the catalogue, although your process is quite unorthodox.
I'm wondering why you don't use ACR instead.

I'm not sure what you mean by "now I can just dump the NR DNG's to the trash after I have developed my photos". The new process does not generate DNG's

digitaldog

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2025, 08:17:38 am »

Well OK, I have a temporal catalog that i throw away ever now and then: .
Yes you use and can only use LRC with a catalog.
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digitaldog

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2025, 08:23:45 am »

…although your process is quite unorthodox.
I'm wondering why you don't use ACR instead.
Yes! And +1!
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Chris Kern

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2025, 12:35:29 pm »

I don’t see how the Denoise process has rendered anything more than any other tool in Lr. It’s still a raw file till you export it or chose to edit it in Photoshop at least I believe it is.

On reflection, I shouldn't have used the word "rendered."  The file produced by the previous implementation of Denoise was a scene-referred linear DNG: demosaiced, but without color, tonal, or gamma corrections applied.  So for subsequent post-processing, it was mostly possible to treat it as a raw file.

The advantage of that approach is the one Andrew pointed out earlier in this thread.  The derivative file was independent of the Lightroom catalog.  It could be backed-up separately from the raw file—and optionally edited in a program other than Lightroom without losing any Lightroom adjustments that had been applied before it was created.

The advantage of the current approach is that it preserves the functionality of a raw workflow.  All the edits performed in Lightroom are recorded in the catalog data and can be retrospectively modified—at the expense of a little catalog bloat.

Disclaimer: I have no information about the internals of Adobe software so what follows is conjecture.

It seems that some and possibly all of the Lightroom functions that are based on machine-learning are performed on a demosaiced file.  The demosaiced data may be stored in an independent linear DNG or in the Lightroom catalog.  I suspect the reason Adobe changed the behavior of Denoise, Raw Details, and Super Resolution was that storing the information for those modifications in the catalog was consistent with the "non-destructive" Lightroom design philosophy of using a database for a list of edits while leaving the raw file untouched.  The illusion of a pure raw workflow isn't perfect, however, since in the current version of Lightroom, you can't apply Super Resolution after Denoise or vice-versa.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2025, 12:42:53 pm by Chris Kern »
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PeterAit

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2025, 09:02:05 pm »

On reflection, I shouldn't have used the word "rendered."  The file produced by the previous implementation of Denoise was a scene-referred linear DNG: demosaiced, but without color, tonal, or gamma corrections applied.  So for subsequent post-processing, it was mostly possible to treat it as a raw file.

The advantage of that approach is the one Andrew pointed out earlier in this thread.  The derivative file was independent of the Lightroom catalog.  It could be backed-up separately from the raw file—and optionally edited in a program other than Lightroom without losing any Lightroom adjustments that had been applied before it was created.

The advantage of the current approach is that it preserves the functionality of a raw workflow.  All the edits performed in Lightroom are recorded in the catalog data and can be retrospectively modified—at the expense of a little catalog bloat.

Disclaimer: I have no information about the internals of Adobe software so what follows is conjecture.

It seems that some and possibly all of the Lightroom functions that are based on machine-learning are performed on a demosaiced file.  The demosaiced data may be stored in an independent linear DNG or in the Lightroom catalog.  I suspect the reason Adobe changed the behavior of Denoise, Raw Details, and Super Resolution was that storing the information for those modifications in the catalog was consistent with the "non-destructive" Lightroom design philosophy of using a database for a list of edits while leaving the raw file untouched.  The illusion of a pure raw workflow isn't perfect, however, since in the current version of Lightroom, you can't apply Super Resolution after Denoise or vice-versa.

Another question comes to mind. The new denoise does not create a DNG but saves its results as unreadable digital information elsewhere. It takes about 5-6 sec for me. If you then change the denoise slider, the change happens instantly. How does this work?
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Denoise in LR - a step backward
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2025, 10:13:02 pm »

Another question comes to mind. The new denoise does not create a DNG but saves its results as unreadable digital information elsewhere. It takes about 5-6 sec for me. If you then change the denoise slider, the change happens instantly. How does this work?

Well, only Adobe knows.

Just my guess: it could be similar to a layer, with the maximum denoise applied. Then when you move the slider, it changes the opacity.
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