Display Calibration Question

[Kit-V]

I realize that trying to get a good print-to-screen match can be rather elusive considering the variables at play. Nevertheless, I have a focused question.

I recently got a BenQ SW272Q display & calibrated it with a CalBrite (X-Rite i1Display Pro. After soft proofing the images in LrC, I sent them to the lab for printing. When I compared the prints to the screen, the prints were both darker & warmer. (BTW, I soft proofed the images & evaluated the prints in a controlled lighting environment). Thus, could you please confirm the following: (1) If I decrease the Luminance from 120cd/m2 to 100cd/m2, the prints should be brighter and (2) if I increase the White Point from D65 to D75, the prints should be cooler. Am I correct? Thank you for your help.

[digitaldog]

Why are my prints too dark?
Why doesn’t my display match my prints?
A video update to a written piece on subject from 2013
In this 24 minute video, I'll cover:

Are your prints really too dark?
Display calibration and WYSIWYG
Proper print viewing conditions
Trouble shooting to get a match
Avoiding kludges that don't solve the problem

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Why_are_my_prints_too_dark.mp4
Low resolution: https://youtu.be/iS6sjZmxjY4

[Kit-V]

Andrew, thank you for link. But I must admit that much of color management exceeds my knowledge base. But I am heartened to hear that changing the luminance & white point values are viable options.

One other thing....in discussing the issue of my prints being "too dark" with the print lab that I use (ProDPI), I received the following response:

"An easy way to calibrate is to hold up a recent print from us next to your monitor, and then pull up the same file on your screen. Then, using the physical buttons on your monitor itself (or going into display settings if you are on Mac), adjust the RGB, brightness, and contrast sliders until your screen itself matches as closely as it can to the print in your hand. Once it matches as close as you can get it, then you can go in and edit your file like normal in your preferred editing program, knowing that your screen is now showing a more accurate display of what the file will look like when it is printed from our lab. And you can still use ICC profiles as well if needed".

Does this response from the lab have any validity since it appears to be a roundabout why to alter the luminance without actually changing that parameter in the calibration software? Of course, I am assuming that the prints are indeed "too dark" & the other influencing variables are constant. Thank you.

[Kyle Jackson]

Where to begin...  Ok I think the "Pro" in the printer's name is a reach... Based on their website and definitely on their email response to you, I don't see evidence of any colour management process at all. It reads to me like a mass-market e-print products service, not a professional print-maker.

You mention you "calibrated" your monitor, and by that I assume you mean you profiled it too. That's good. But you don't mention the print process. There's no mention on their site of the specific equipment, media, etc. Without an accurate profile for that you're throwing darts blindfolded.

And with the feel I'm getting about that print provider, I suspect you're unlikely to get anything useful from them in that regard. (I spent ages with similar providers on the same topic and not only were they applying image adjustments/corrections on their machines despite instructions, their output didn't even remotely match their provided icc profiles, there was a ton of variance, and they blamed their profiling service provider for it lol.  )

Anyhow you can try to get a colour profile from them so that you've got something (somewhat) usable for soft-proofing. But anticipate a lot of trial-and-error before you get something you're happy with..., at least until you try a very different print (colour range, tones, whatever) and have to repeat similar for that one... Or it's printed by a different employee. Or on a different machine. Or at a different time of day. Or they changed the media load. Or...

Ultimately my recommendation is either find a professional print-maker to work with, ideally local to you to make the back-and-forth much easier, or bite the bullet and get your own printer (assuming this isn't commercial volume) and buckle down for a lot of learnin' lol. Because altho these kinds of print product providers may seem convenient or economical, if you care about the image quality / consistency I doubt they'll ever measure up. Since you mention you're new to colour management, the first option might be better (at least to start), and they might share some knowledge with you too.

Otherwise, use their profile if they have one (it's probably a bad one), make your file, send it, and then forget about comparing print to soft-proof after, just accept what they give you like it's from your local photocopy shop. And expect it to be different each time even on the same file. And if that's not satisfactory, then see previous recommendations. (Technicallyyyy you could get your own custom profiles made for test prints they give you and proof with those, but since you have zero control over the print process / variation, I feel it's a waste of time.)

Hope that helps.

Edit: for your specific questions, if you adjusted your monitor's brightness and white balance, and then subsequently edited your images differently to suit your eyes' taste and sent that to them, yes you should get a different print. But as above good luck getting any consistent results from it. (You could get different results even if you made zero changes and re-sent the same file!  )

[TonyW]

I think you definitely need to look for a lab that follows a colour managed workflow as Kyle stated above.  IMHO a professional lab following sound colour managed workflow would provide you with current ICC profiles for your choice of paper for their machines and of course use them when receiving your image data.

It does not appear that this company do follow a colour managed route from this quote

File Format & Resolution

Prep your work for printing by saving a high-quality JPEG for uploading. All files must be tagged with a color profile, ideally AdobeRGB or P3, but anything in the RGB colorspace will work. We do not support embedding any other colorspaces (like CMYK). We’re currently unable to accept TIFF, PSD, PDF or RAW files for printing.

We print most products at 300 DPI or higher, so in general we recommend uploading the highest resolution file you have and we can take care of resizing your image to accommodate the final print size. In most situations we don’t recommend using tools like Photoshop to artificially scale up your file to add extra pixels that weren’t in the original capture.

Perhaps I have not searched hard enough but it seems to me that many so called "Pro" labs make wild claims about colour management without following basic principles.  Supplying ICC profiles is a start but no good if they do not use them themselves, rather forcing you down an sRGB workflow which is convenient for them.  I did a quick check of a lab that I used to use on occasion in the UK that did follow a reasonable colour workflow in providing ICC profiles for their various papers and printers with instructions for soft proofing and converting image data before sending the file.  Sadly now, after new ownership they demand sRGB Jpeg be sent even though they still offer ICC profiles.

Good luck in finding a quality printer in your area

[dgberg]

Falling Fork,
The biggest reason you could have to print your own work is to control your output. It is not that expensive compared to what most photographers have invested in gear.
Can easily top $20,000 in camera gear without even trying. Several thousand more invested for your own personal printer setup is well worth it.
Once you start printing you may find it addicting like many of us have. Shoot, process, print, mount, all in-house.
You can double the amount of money going into your pocket with the satisfaction that you did it all.

[Eric Brody]

I agree with DG Berg. There have been great photographers who had others print their work. I've never understood that (except for really busy commercial photographers). We should be responsible for every step along the way from composition to the final matted print.

While times have changed, iPhones, and the like, a print is still the finest representation of our artistic endeavors.

I agree that photo printers were probably designed by some malevolent entity, once one gets one working, the learning curve smooths out and the prints just flow.

Do consider doing your own printing, it is great fun and really is rewarding.

[pflower]

I have to say that despite other responses, I think your lab has offered some useful advice.

Colour calibration is one thing.  Icc profiles are another - both are important - but monitor brightness is not the same thing.  I have been printing for 24 years now on Macs with different Epson printers.  Colour accuracy can be a pain and may require quite a lot of work.  But 99% of the time if your complaint is simply that your prints are darker than what you see on your monitor then your monitor is set at too higher luminance.  I have used Macs and as far as I can tell the only real way to control brightness is with the slider in the Display setting.  This is not scientific and quantifiable and needs adjustment to meet your specific expectations.  I am still on a 5k 27 inch iMac.  Great for watching videos but not so great for matching photos to prints if you simply leave it as its highest setting.  So printing a reference print as adjusted to your satisfaction on your monitor you can immediately see whether or not the print matches what you see on the monitor.  If it is too dark then adjust the monitor by lowering the brightness so as  to match the print and then remember that setting and edit from that setting.  Often I turn my iMac up to its brightest setting in order to watch a video or movie and then forget to return it to the position I have chosen for photo editing.  The result is always a ruined print that is too dark.  Having got the brightness consistent with the output you may find other problems but your current problem seems certainly that your monitor is too bright and what your lab is saying makes perfect sense.

I would add to say that those of us who visit this forum are very lucky to have Andrew Rodney (digital dog) contributing. Read what he has to say on his website - you won't find a clearer or better explanation.
 

Andrew, thank you for link. But I must admit that much of color management exceeds my knowledge base. But I am heartened to hear that changing the luminance & white point values are viable options.

One other thing....in discussing the issue of my prints being "too dark" with the print lab that I use (ProDPI), I received the following response:

"An easy way to calibrate is to hold up a recent print from us next to your monitor, and then pull up the same file on your screen. Then, using the physical buttons on your monitor itself (or going into display settings if you are on Mac), adjust the RGB, brightness, and contrast sliders until your screen itself matches as closely as it can to the print in your hand. Once it matches as close as you can get it, then you can go in and edit your file like normal in your preferred editing program, knowing that your screen is now showing a more accurate display of what the file will look like when it is printed from our lab. And you can still use ICC profiles as well if needed".

Does this response from the lab have any validity since it appears to be a roundabout why to alter the luminance without actually changing that parameter in the calibration software? Of course, I am assuming that the prints are indeed "too dark" & the other influencing variables are constant. Thank you.

[digitaldog]

Does this response from the lab have any validity since it appears to be a roundabout why to alter the luminance without actually changing that parameter in the calibration software?

Part of calibration is setting the Cd/m2 to an ideal match of the print which is then recorded as part of the profile used for soft proofing. IOW, whatever software you use to calibrate, set Cd/m2 ideally for print to screen matching, not necessarily the OSD on the display.