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Author Topic: Please Help:Did my Cart explode? Can't get rid of banding. Multiple Nozzle check  (Read 3512 times)

disneytoy

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I'd get a bottle of Piezo flush, and follow their capping station / head clean process, before getting to close to the screwdriver set. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8NkgKw7mDw

Years ago, I brought a very long parked Epson 4800 back from the dead (mainly because I was bored, and thought it might be fun)

Is this what I need? AMAZON

How can I determine the right part number for the capping station? Thanks.
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Richard.Wills

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That's the chemical, but you don't need that mini-printer syringe.
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Lessbones

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JCD

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Eh, I have…….. a Yellow and an MK channel. One terminal clog on one channel only,  two different machines.

Eh, personally I disagree.  I'd be willing to bet that yeah while the whole head isn't dead, the LM channel is likely hosed from delamination.  I've brought plenty of totally caked over heads back from the dead, and cleared out many a damper issue, but i've never seen anything target a specific LINE of nozzles like that except for an adhesive breakdown.  If they were all deflected 100% of the time i'd say it was a scratch, but that kind of weird random blipping in and out usually means the seal is broken at that point IME
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Lessbones

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Eh, I have…….. a Yellow and an MK channel. One terminal clog on one channel only,  two different machines.

Not sure what you're trying to say here.  You cleared a "terminal" clog that appeared as a single row of nozzles out on a channel by replacing a damper?  Because if you're trying to say you recovered a channel that wasn't firing AT ALL then yes, that I can believe.
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disneytoy

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Did my Cart explode? Can't get rid of banding. Multiple Nozzle check
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2024, 10:51:04 pm »

Failed Cartridge Autopsy:

I carefully disassembled the Light Magenta 350ml. It initially appeared to be a rupture of the Mylar ink pouch. Based on ink covering the inner walls of the cartridge. I was under the assumption that the pressure to squeeze ink to the nozzle had been split with pushing ink into the cartridge chamber. I was wrong. The Mylar pouch is in tact. No ink within the pressurized area. I can't figure how the ink escaped from the nozzle port of that little dampener?

So, somehow during CL 2 and a Single CL 3 cleaning cycle the ink escaped into the right cartridge bay and seeped inside the outer shell, outside the pressure chamber.

So am I correct, while printing or doing a cleaning cycle, the pressure inside the cartridge helps squeeze the ink through the tubing, like a Capri Sun:-).

Somewhere between the printer's ink barb tip and the Mylar pouch something failed? I still think this is the source of my nozzle test problems. Is there air in the system? Is the damper clogged? I will check if there is any leaking from my new 700ml cartridge I have been using.

Am I correct that the pressure remains the same throughout CL 1- 4? That only the length of time and amount of ink used changes? a CL 4 isn't twice the pressure of a CL 1?

Any thoughts?

Max
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Lessbones

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if you further remove that bag you'll see that there's a plastic damper in there as well which you can see in image 11-- i THINK this is basically a one-way valve that is supposed to prevent any back pressure from pushing ink or pressure back into the cartridge, so that could have failed.  But it's also possible in theory that there was enough of a clog somewhere in that light magenta line (prior to the head itself) that was blocking enough pressure that it eventually exploded back in the direction of the cartridge and overwhelmed the seals.  If that were in fact the case, that could have broken up the clog, but caused some particles to enter the head itself and settle in the area of that row that is causing you issues.  The only way to actually get these out (and this is really totally a theory at this point) would be to remove the head, put a syringe w a bit of tubing on the light magenta channel entrance and pull some cleaning solution or distilled water backwards through the head to try to evacuate.  This is usually the first thing I do to any heads that have been sitting in a printer unused for a while, since the glommed together pigment particles will be too much to push through the nozzle plate apertures, and could possibly damage the piezo elements.

The dampers before the printheads have these little metal meshes that attempt to filter out any larger particles that could make their way towards the head, but if there was some ink drying AFTER this point they wouldn't be able to do much.

I posted this image in a different thread about ink solidification, and while this shows some extreme solidifying in the orange ink (which you don't have in that machine) I did find more than I expected in the magenta channels specifically after this.  I didn't actually get around to finishing this project off-- last time I plugged in the head nothing was firing at all, so I'm expecting that either I did something stupid and shorted out some pins in the FFC cables when I replaced the head after cleaning, or something just isn't seated right.  I do plan on continuing at some point, but the potential project I had for this (a dye-sub conversion using fluorescent inks) fell through before I really felt like investing further time in it.  At least the ink system is cleared out now and it's all cleaning solution sitting in the lines/head.

Also sorry that image is tiny, i accidentally downloaded the thumbnail, but even there you can see the little orange snake of solid pigment oozing out of the end of the connector.
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disneytoy

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Thanks Less!

Crazy picture, that is the output of the tubes going into the damper correct?

Clearly something cause the ink cartridge case cover (short side) to fill with ink. As the pressure in the chamber tries to send ink to the head, somehow ink came back into the cartridge chamber. The ink bag did not rupture, nor the plastic seal of the pressure chamber. I DO NOT THINK IT WAS my cleaning cycles, because the LT Cyan pair is fine.

I am expecting syringes Friday, and have watched  a couple vids on removing the damper and cleaning that first. If that does not work I can try reverse waterfall on the head, but I'd rather not remove it:-) I bet if I could measure the pressure, the Lt Magenta is not getting as much pressure to the damper or head. Maybe the damper will sow ink leaking as well. Wish me luck, ARGGHH!

If I need to replace the DAMPER, do I need the Service Program. Is it taboo to ask if anyone has the Service program, I see its the same for any of the 7900-9900 series.

Thanks gang!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2024, 07:46:02 am by disneytoy »
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JCD

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On this unit you replace what is called the “ink selector unit” which contains all the dampers. Gunk accumulates over time. A printer of this vintage should have it replaced regardless.  On earlier units it was super easy to replace each one individually, not anymore. I would ask on the Epson io group about a service program. It might be in the files section.


Thanks Less!

Crazy picture, that is the output of the tubes going into the damper correct?

Clearly something cause the ink cartridge case cover (short side) to fill with ink. As the pressure in the chamber tries to send ink to the head, somehow ink came back into the cartridge chamber. The ink bag did not rupture, nor the plastic seal of the pressure chamber. I DO NOT THINK IT WAS my cleaning cycles, because the LT Cyan pair is fine.

I am expecting syringes Friday, and have watched  a couple vids on removing the damper and cleaning that first. If that does not work I can try reverse waterfall on the head, but I'd rather not remove it:-) I bet if I could measure the pressure, the Lt Magenta is not getting as much pressure to the damper or head. Maybe the damper will sow ink leaking as well. Wish me luck, ARGGHH!

If I need to replace the DAMPER, do I need the Service Program. Is it taboo to ask if anyone has the Service program, I see its the same for any of the 7900-9900 series.

Thanks gang!
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Lessbones

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You don't need the service program for any of this.  You do need to either enter service mode to uncap the head, or unplug the printer while it's in the middle of moving the head in order to unlock it from the cap unless you open the entire right side up and turn the gears manually.  iirc the service mode is hold OK, right, and down while powering on--  I literally had to recall this by putting my hand in the cramped position I use to press these buttons at the same time then thinking about which buttons those actually would be.  The service program is really only useful if you replace the head and you need to write to the motherboard the new code which contains the ideal voltages for the new head.  The name of that value is escaping me at the moment, but it's not necessary yet.

You COULD replace the whole assembly--  basically it consists of a flat backplate with very thin tubes that connect from the ink tubes themselves (see attached photos).  This distributes the ink to the 5 dampers, each of which handles two ink channels.  In the case of the black ink on this model there is another set of "sub dampers" and a motor which changes whether matte or photo black ink ultimately flows into the damper for that channel.  If you're paying attention you'd realize that there are actually 10 channels here, and only 8 inks being used at any given time, and yes, that's because this printer is identical to the 9900 just with two empty slots where the orange and green could go.  So you actually have two unused channels in your head that can't be used here.  Epson easily could have had both matte and photo black loaded simultaneously in the 9890 by utilizing one of these extra channels, but they didn't want to have two different SKUs for the damper/ink selector assembly, so you still have to waste time and ink swapping between the two even though you have an empty damper and two extra channels sitting right there.

Anyway, the dampers connect to that backplate by snapping into a clear plastic housing-- they're a little tricky to get out, but once you've done it a couple of times it's not so bad, and then you can rinse out and clean each damper individually (or replace them) instead of replacing the entire assembly.

if you're going to start messing around with this BE DAMN SURE that you eject at least one cartridge before turning the printer off and starting to unscrew things, otherwise the system will stay pressurized and you'll have ink spraying out everywhere (instead of dribbling out, which will happen regardless).  It's a messy process, and there are lots of opportunities for causing bigger problems-- the flat flex cables leading to the head are particularly sensitive, and they can tear easily, but I find that it's even easier to get a tiny bit of ink into the slots where they connect to the head, which causes a short between pins, and usually will at least blow a microscoping fuse on the motherboard when you next power it on if it doesn't take out the whole board itself.

Also I know I'm skipping some steps that are just muscle memory at this point, but the printer should be unplugged, and after unplugging it you should try to turn it ON again, which will help drain the caps on the motherboard so there isn't any electricity still stored in them.  Either way it would be wise to leave the printer unplugged and alone for 30 mins or so before starting to do anything that involves plugging or unplugging wires just to be safe.

It's funny to me that they have protections on this board against shorts, but epson only ever instructs techs to replace the whole thing (at a cost of ~$2000).  A few times I've blown these fuses, and once I found out my error I either replaced them or just bridged the connection with a bodge wire with full realization that if I ever got to that point again I'd end up frying the board.  That usually has only been at a point at which the printer was about to be thrown in the trash anyway (11880 converted to dye sub I think was the one I had to do that to-- god what a nightmare that thing was).

Anyway all of this is a pretty major digression-- you could end up cleaning all that out and not get anywhere in terms of fixing your actual issue.  I keep talking about reverse suction on the head, and that's actually what I would try first in this case--

Once you get all the covers and things off of the head carriage there are only 3 screws that actually attach the whole damper assembly to the printhead itself.  One is in one of those rectangular holes in the middle, and two are on the sides-- I believe these screws are usually black to differentiate them from the rest of the ones that hold the assembly itself together.  Once you remove these screws you can gently rock the whole big plastic assembly back and forth and pull it straight off of the head--  in the case of the 9890 since you're at an angle I'd put some paper towels down underneath this area to catch any ink dripping out.  You also need a pretty long philips to be able to reach these screws, especially if you haven't gone through the whole procedure of removing the top cover (which absolutely sucks).  The added bonus to taking off the whole assembly is that the dampers offer some protection from the ink just flowing out all over the place, since they're literally there to regulate that pressure.  They allow ink through via suction, not via pushing it, so it's actually the action of the printing and firing nozzles itself that keeps the ink flowing through them-- otherwise you'd need to press on the sides of them to allow the ink to pass through.

If you've gotten this far, and things are not totally destroyed yet, you can gently pull the 4 flex cables out of their slots on the head, and then there are 4 #1 philips screws that hold the head in the carriage.  After that point you can remove the head.  The picture (the one that's actually mine, not the obviously ripped from the internet one) is of the top of the ink selector assy of a 4900-- this one is considerably easier to access because of the orientation of the machine and less stuff in the way, but it's identical to the 9890/9900 in every other way.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2024, 11:59:44 am by Lessbones »
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disneytoy

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Less!

Really appreciate your time man. I'm always in Service mode:-)  I am going to attempt flushing the damper, specifically LT Magenta.

I had a weird thing yesterday, I had powered off the Epson overnight per someones recommendation. It has always been "on", then I turned on in the morning and I did not notice it at first, because I was concentration on LT Magenta nozzles. But my magenta test pattern turned BLUE!!!

Since Magenta and Cyan live on opposite sides, the cross contamination must have occurred in the Dampers or further up the line. Its mostly back to magenta now. I did some Quadtone RIP color channel flushes. Crazy since I have not done (until this morning a regular Magenta cleaning).

Great advice about remove a cartridge first to release the pressure, I would have missed that. I will print out your suggestions when I try this.

Your thoughts Less. The Lt Magenta leaked ink I think from back pressure. The head is missing random center nozzles. The leakage is not caused by my cleaning cycles, because Lt. Cyan cart is perfect. The Damper could be indeed partially clogged. Could the Blue Magenta test pattern be from the Dampers?  I know clearly the head is the next culprit.

Can you thumbs up or down that someone claimed this could be caused by the Cleaning unit. But it is creating a vacuum to extract the ink from the head? Someone said if you go in from the right side, you may see leaked ink implying a vacuum leak.  I'm leaning towards the damper. The Cleaning unit most likely would not of created the back pressure leakage.

Here are a couple pictures of my ink chambers. Also, here is an 8 channel output., Still not good enough but I've seen worse? Any thoughts.

Thanks







Two excellence videos on removing and clean the damper:

How To Remove The Printhead On A Epson 9890 Wide Format Printer for Cleaning - Part 1
and
Epson Stylus Pro 7900/9900 Ink Damper Assembly Cleaning & Flushing

and
Epson SureColor SC–P7000
« Last Edit: October 14, 2024, 03:10:33 pm by disneytoy »
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disneytoy

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I got my 60ml and 30ml syringes today. I'm hope they are all stand sizes. The nozzle looks a little large. Just so I don't take everything apart, what size diameter tubing do I need to have to fit inside or over the barbs?  I read 3.5mm ID but could only find 3.. on Amazon. then I read 1/8" ID 3/16" OD silicone tubing? Id like to have it on hand before I open everything up.
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disneytoy

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In researching cleaning and replacing my dampers, I came across this. Any thoughts on just replacing the single damper? I old but flushed OEM vs a new non OEM damper? it would cross off the LT Magenta Damper as a potential issue. Does the 9890 8 color use all 5 dampers or just 4? could the 5th damper if installed be switched to my LT Magenta?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2024, 12:58:39 pm by disneytoy »
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Lessbones

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Ok-- been offline for a few days--

so in my thinking, it doesn't make sense that the damper could be causing such a problem since the dampers are a single input single output component designed to regulate negative pressure-- it seems logical to me that if the damper were blocked, it would act like a clogged artery-- you'd get problems with ink starvation throughout that channel.  Because you have just a single line of nozzles playing up, I don't understand how the damper could be the issue.  I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like to me.  Personally I would clean out the dampers you have now instead of getting those bootleg ones-- ive had a lot of experience with third party dampers, and they're basically a total crapshoot.  That said, I don't really think dampers "fail" -- they're just a piece of plastic stretched across a spring that pushes outward on the plastic, causing a negative fluid effect-- when pulled at from their exit they allow ink to pass through.  Unless punctured or somehow stretched, I wouldn't think they would fail very commonly in that manner.  Sure they can become filled with caked up solidified ink, but you can usually flush them completely out with some cleaning solution or windex fairly easily.  If you want to know for sure, take out two dampers, clean them, then swap their positions.  Or even just rotate the one damper for the C/M 180 degrees.

3mm ID tubing should be about right, I don't completely remember offhand, but that sounds normal.  Also, those syringes are going to be a pain-- get some with Luer Lock ports-- these are used in catheters, and they have a screw on interface, but also have a little nub that the tubing usually fits onto perfectly.  Also get a bag of the short luer lock tips.

The magenta and cyan are directly next to each other-- it doesn't matter where the cartridges are in the machine at the beginning-- their lines lead to a shared damper, so that's why you had that mixing of ink-- it's definitely from ink being sucked up into the nozzles, not from somewhere upstream more-- it's not possible for the ink to mix anywhere else in the ink system without there also being a catastrophic leak, which is not what you're experiencing here.
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disneytoy

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So are you saying I can 180 degree the Damper and switch cyan to magenta (cleaned out obviously) and it is okay to be rotated.  If Dampers are not the issue why does everyone state you need to replace them every couple of years? mine are original.

One last question:-) After reassembly, what is the safest procedure to re prime the the nozzle? Regular Paired Cleaning, Print a Flush Image from QuadTone Rip, etc? Someone said do a SSclean, but that x900 site says NEVER run the SSCLEAN.

So if it is not the Damper then I have to remove the head and flush it. That is what I wanted to avoid.
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Lessbones

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the best things to do after any major replacements are power cleanings (or clean pairs- powerful) since this uses suction to pull the ink through the head instead of firing the nozzles, which can be a bad thing to do when there's no ink present (the ink also acts as coolant for the peizo elements).  But after you dissasemble things like this you should at least run a single power clean on everything, then maybe you can focus on individual channels that are still giving problems.  Either way, power cleanings are the least aggressive, although they use more ink than regular ones.  SS cleaning should be avoided.

I think the reason people say to replace the dampers is more because they don't want to deal with flushing them out-- also a technician would always replace them and not try to spend a bunch of time cleaning the old ones because afterwards it would be too hard to pinpoint an actual cause of the problem.  Just replacing them with new ones and trashing the old is a more surefire way to rule out a potential problem.  I've been through so many different third party dampers and I almost always have ended up switching back to old OEM ones that were cleaned because the 3rd party ones had other weird issues.  Either way they're cheap shitty pieces of plastic, but they will charge sometimes $100/each for the "real" ones.  Who knows who actually manufactures these, and to what tolerances.  I have found that often the good quality ones tend to have a blue sharpie dot on them for some reason, maybe indicating that someone actually did QC it.
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disneytoy

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I have some Dx6 and Dx7 dampers coming from 2 sources. Yes they are cheap but the ones that are 5x the price are probably the same source. I've learned a lot about Roland and the other companies using all the Epson parts. I think Mutoh sells a single OEM damper for $105!!!

I was asking around but didn't get a definitive answer Since the 9890 only uses 4 dampers, I wondered if my selector did in deed have the unused 5th damper, I know the middle damper is different, but,, I may already have a spare OEM damper I can use right in the printer:-)

i'm pretty sure all the DTG printers use these generic dampers. There is a screen inside and if blocked could reduce flow and pressure to the head. remember, i still have the evidence of my LT. Magenta blowing out. To me that is pressure getting blown back.
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Lessbones

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yes most of those companies used the same epson heads head once upon a time (and some today still)-- i've taken a 9900 printhead and put it in a mimaki solvent printer before with no issues. So yeah, they're intercompatible.  Also I answered your question about the 5 dampers in my post a few days ago so yeah, it has all 5 dampers but it uses all uses them in a weird way-- it might actually use one side of two of them with both having an empty side or something like that, I can't completely remember.  The middle damper isnt different, theres a whole extra assembly that you take off and then it has 5 identical dampers.
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