Printing "solid blacks" on matte paper.

[William Walker]

Hi,

I have a customer who prefers prints of her artwork (see attached) to be printed on matte paper.

On a Canon 4100 Pro printer I use either Canson Rag Photographique 310gsm or Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308gsm because, of all the matte paper I have tried, these seem to cause me the least pain!


I have set the head height to "High" the feed tension to "High", the vacuum strength to "High" and yet I have a less than 50% rate of the black being perfect.
Slight burnishes are the main problem.

Can anyone help  ?

[Czornyj]

Hi,

I have a customer who prefers prints of her artwork (see attached) to be printed on matte paper.

On a Canon 4100 Pro printer I use either Canson Rag Photographique 310gsm or Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308gsm because, of all the matte paper I have tried, these seem to cause me the least pain!


I have set the head height to "High" the feed tension to "High", the vacuum strength to "High" and yet I have a less than 50% rate of the black being perfect.
Slight burnishes are the main problem.

Can anyone help  ?

Are you sure it's caused by head carriage? Leave the printer open, start printing (you need to put something to the sensors to trick it) and check if it still happens. Sometimes when paper is stiff and crooked it can rub against the edge of the cover or plastic wheels in it.

[Lessbones]

Slight burnishes are the main problem.

you'll need to provide pictures of the issue if you want to get any actual help-- no idea what you mean by "burnish" in this context, but sounds to me like a scuff caused by paper handling without photos

[Richard.Wills]

I find Arches 88 to be one of the most forgiving papers, but even that can gain a nasty curl when humidity drops, or the tail end of a roll is loaded.

I run our old 8400 with the lid open (folded bits of KapaMount in the cover sensors), but listen out for those times it wants to do a nozzle check at end of print...

[mfrohman]

I print a lot of matte black on my 4100. Matte black is a pain in general but my Canon handles it very well on epson hot or cold press using the Fine Art Txt profile. I find most abrasions happen either at the beginning of the roll where there are existing scratches on the paper or from handling after printing without gloves. I've also had an issue where some papers have these wide abrasion lines (from the manufacturer) across  the roll that only show up once you print matte black over it so that's maybe a possibility in your case. 

[William Walker]

you'll need to provide pictures of the issue if you want to get any actual help-- no idea what you mean by "burnish" in this context, but sounds to me like a scuff caused by paper handling without photos

Firstly, thanks for all the feedback..

Each of the three prints have marks on them.

[Czornyj]

Each of the three prints have marks on them.

99,9% it's from the cover - carriage would cause longer horizontal stripes. You can print with cover open, remove plastic rolls, use some soft cloth to create a barrier that protects prints, or slightly pull the paper down when it comes out

[Panagiotis]

I believe that the marks where there before printing. How do you load the paper in to the printer?

[William Walker]

99,9% it's from the cover - carriage would cause longer horizontal stripes. You can print with cover open, remove plastic rolls, use some soft cloth to create a barrier that protects prints, or slightly pull the paper down when it comes out

Thanks Marcin,
between your "carriage would cause longer horizontal stripes" and Panagiotis' "I believe that the marks where there before printing" it seems that the marks must have been on the paper - I tried again with a new roll and it printed perfectly!

Thank you to everyone else to for the response!

William.

[Lessbones]

yeah that kind of non-mechanical looking wiggly pattern, kinda had to be on the paper either prior to or post printing, it's just too organic to have been the printer itself.  If you wanna see some real tortuous "black ink on matte paper stock" check out Wolfgang Tillmans' huge Hahnemuhle Ultrasmooth prints that are composed to two 60" wide prints seamed together post printing...  I can't imagine they'd have to do any fewer than 10 copies of those to get anything scuff free...  you just glance at that paper and it scuffs...

[Kyle Jackson]

Wait, the suggestion is that there were handling marks of some kind on the paper before printing that "damaged" the surface somehow so that the ink did not apply uniformly in that spot?  That's really a thing? I'm struggling with that tbh... Would have expected these marks were made post-ink. 🤔

[mfrohman]

Yeah, I've seen those kinds of marks a 100 times. I think it was there on the paper as well. You would think new rolls would be untouched but the machines that roll them must sometimes make abrasions. You don't really see it until you lay some dark matte ink over the top and wherever those abrasions are, look shiny and lighter. very frustrating. save that roll for some lighter prints!

[Kyle Jackson]

Interesting! I never expected subtle marks like that would affect ink application. Reminds me a bit of artwork (pencils, etc) where the "tooth" of the surface texture is what collects/retains the pigments, and it changes if it's burnished smoother.

...I guess now that I think about it, matte printing is kinda similar... A burnished spot is basically no longer matte (or as matte) like the rest of the sheet. So in that one spot it's not going to behave like it should. Probably moreso for printers that use separate black inks for matte paper vs non-matte..., in that one spot it almost needs the non-matte ink.

Some stuff I wish I really didn't know lol! 🙈 Gonna be a lot more paranoid about handling my rolls now tho 

[Panagiotis]

Wait, the suggestion is that there were handling marks of some kind on the paper before printing that "damaged" the surface somehow so that the ink did not apply uniformly in that spot?  That's really a thing? I'm struggling with that tbh... Would have expected these marks were made post-ink. 🤔

In my experience even a fingerprint on the blank paper can be revealed after printing solid black on it.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Yeah, I've seen those kinds of marks a 100 times. I think it was there on the paper as well. You would think new rolls would be untouched but the machines that roll them must sometimes make abrasions. You don't really see it until you lay some dark matte ink over the top and wherever those abrasions are, look shiny and lighter. very frustrating. save that roll for some lighter prints!

Yes, I have had rolls with a wavy pattern in the coating, most visible with solid blacks. Probably caused by vibration in the paper coating blade or the paper pulp itself was not evenly laid down so before the paper base was coated
From another source two rolls with bigger coating particles on top of  the matte paper. Both 100% cotton papers. Smudges on the surface or insects, dirt, trapped between the paper fibers.
Over time I had the least issues with Hahnemuhle papers.  The German Etching issue with small coating particles popping off the paper during the print run was for 90% solved more than a decade ago.

In general paper coating quality constancy is way better in large scale paper production runs like done for the Innova IFA24 and 25. Exist under other names too. Probably a Felix Schoeller product. No cotton or alpha cellulose base but a good quality paper and coating. A bit light in weight though wit 200-210 grams.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[fethiye]

How do you load the paper in to the printer?

I also need help with that

[William Walker]

UPDATE:

I now use Hahnemühle Photo Rag Satin 310gsm and the problem is solved - perfect solid blacks every time.

There is a slight sheen but, to me and my customer, it looks a lot more "classy"!

[Richard.Wills]

HPRS does have great blacks, but I find they show the slightest mark, almost more than Arches88 - the gloss sort of morphs with any abrasion...

[Richard.Wills]

Raising an old thread.

I revisited some test prints on HPRS, printed on the 8400, using Hahnemuhle's profile, and the Ink was still "soft". Tried some prints on the new 4600, using Hahnemuhle's profiles for Mirage, that also uses matt ink - same fragility.

Tried it with a profile for Canson Prestige Baryta (just as a test). Print is dry and resilient. Why H recommend matt ink is confusing me. Now created a custom profile, based on Prestige Baryta, and I can't see any major shift - monochrome looks lovely.

[William Walker]

Raising an old thread.

I revisited some test prints on HPRS, printed on the 8400, using Hahnemuhle's profile, and the Ink was still "soft". Tried some prints on the new 4600, using Hahnemuhle's profiles for Mirage, that also uses matt ink - same fragility.

Tried it with a profile for Canson Prestige Baryta (just as a test). Print is dry and resilient. Why H recommend matt ink is confusing me. Now created a custom profile, based on Prestige Baryta, and I can't see any major shift - monochrome looks lovely.

If I understand you correctly, you are trying out a media setting that specifies Photo Black? Very interesting.
My setting shows MBK/PKB (see attachment).
My understanding is that, although it is a matte paper, they have coated it as if it were a Photo Paper...