Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Pigment Ink Solidification  (Read 562 times)

Lessbones

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
    • Color Center
Pigment Ink Solidification
« on: August 12, 2024, 11:42:26 am »

If anybody's ever wondered why they usually have problems with the Orange ink first in their Epson printer, here's what it looks like after sitting in the lines for a few years--  Clearly the orange has a lot more/bigger pigment particles than any of the other colors (at least with ultrachrome HDR) ;)

Logged

Lessbones

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
    • Color Center
Re: Pigment Ink Solidification
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2024, 02:27:50 pm »

guess i dont know how to add pictures properly on here:

Logged

Kyle D Jackson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 182
    • Lone Leaf Photography
Re: Pigment Ink Solidification
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2024, 08:16:37 am »


Wow! That's crazy! :o

Silly question, does your Epson model do automatic maintenance cycles to exercise the printheads, etc? I only have HP (Z3100 and Z3200), and they have this feature, *if* they're powered on tho.

The HP pigment inks also seem to have great longevity, I still have ink that is ~15 yrs old. Our problem colour is matte black, it clogs the printhead nozzles more easily. But I haven't heard of ink gumming up in the actual lines or anywhere else in the printer like in your photo. Which model is that?

Logged
Kyle D Jackson
Ottawa, Canada
Lone Leaf Photography

Paul_Roark

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 122
Re: Pigment Ink Solidification
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2024, 12:15:58 pm »

Although different inks have different maintenance requirements, I've generally found that printing at least once a week (perhaps just a "purge pattern" -- see some examples at the bottom of https://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Test-files.htm [make your own in PS]), as well as agitating large format inks cartridges once a month has avoided ink clogs. 

These issues are mostly related to large format printers that don't get regular use.  I never worry about the Epson that is connected to my usual daily computer; its smaller carts and regular use keep it from getting clogged.

The 9800, however, has notes on my calendar to be sure it gets its weekly exercise and monthly agitation.  Clogs and settling are just part of the pigment ink reality.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
https://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/


Logged

Lessbones

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
    • Color Center
Re: Pigment Ink Solidification
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2024, 05:44:14 pm »

The Epsons do not do periodic maintenance by themselves, but you can set up something like Qimage to schedule them--

I've done a number of deep cleans on this particular model (but it would apply to any x900 series with O and G) and the orange dries out in the lines extremely quickly-- like sometimes in 6 months or less without use.  I'm converting this machine for sublimation, and I've taken out all the dampers-- green also shows some signs of sedimentation like this, but none of the other colors even come close.  I removed the print-head manifold and pushed some water through it and the orange shoots out like old tomato paste.  This channel still won't pull anything through from the nozzles backwards-- ive been using a tiny solid core wire to poke into the inlet and after two days of pushing in there i'm still getting big particles to come out-- it really is like snaking a tiny drain  ;D

Honestly I should have taken pictures of the whole process to share... but there will be other occasions I'm sure.

As far as the cartridges themselves, since they're sealed they're probably still fine, but in all honesty if I were to buy a new printer of this series, and I had the appropriate RIP to do so, I would probably leave the orange and green channels empty as placeholders for when another channel eventually goes bad and never load those colors in the first place.  I've never met someone who really felt like they were getting a benefit photographically from having these extra colors...  I DO understand how they could be helpful for proofing flexo-type applications, but that is such a tiny segment of the market for these things...
Logged

Kyle D Jackson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 182
    • Lone Leaf Photography
Re: Pigment Ink Solidification
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2024, 09:44:58 am »

I removed the print-head manifold and pushed some water through it and the orange shoots out like old tomato paste.

Omg nearly nose-barfed when I read that!! 😂 Not something I want to see in context of my printers lol! (But yeah the HP Z's have some disgusting innards too... 😝 )

For some stuff I've done with my HPs I've used those fuzzy "pipecleaners" they have at craft shops, and also different syringes I found online, usually for printhead priming kits, etc (here's one example: https://www.lpscomputer.com/products/upgraded-printhead-seals-and-purger-kit-for-t-and-z-models ). Depending on the diameter of the passages you're trying to clean, maybe some of those ideas might help?

Sublimation conversion, flexible colour channel configuration..., this sounds like an amazingly flexible printer! Seems much more commercially oriented than the old HP Z series I've used.

Cheers


Logged
Kyle D Jackson
Ottawa, Canada
Lone Leaf Photography

Lessbones

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
    • Color Center
Re: Pigment Ink Solidification
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2024, 12:14:34 pm »

The main advantage of the Epson printers has always been that they use piezoelectric heads-- so they're physically pushing the ink out with pulses instead of heating it until it bubbles and pops like canon and HP do--  this makes them able to jet a huge variety of different inks, but also much more susceptible to contaminants like dust and the like-- also they're significantly more complex to manufacture, hence the nearly ~$2000 for a new head, and the reluctance to let the end user replace it themselves (they're somewhat coming around on this with their newer mid level industrial printers, like the newly announced F9570/9570H -- these for all intents and purposes have the same hardware as a P20570 (same head, bulk ink bag loading) but they'll be built around a more "pro level" frame (less plastic, more metal) and they have a user replaceable head routine.  Also a $20,000 price premium over the fine-art model.

The one big issue faced when changing ink types is that different types of inks have different viscosities, and therefore require differently optimized waveforms to drive the piezo elements to the best of their abilities.  It really is super fascinating when you get down to the nitty gritty of how these things work-- most industrial printheads are also piezo based, but they have slightly different designs based on their intended usage (in-head ink recirculation is a big one when you are dealing with white ink).

I must have forgotten about some kind of valve in the 4900 that prevents the inks from being pulled through by hand from the lines leading to the cartridges, because I wasn't getting anywhere with a syringe at the state I showed a picture of--  I ended up turning the machine on without the lines connected, letting it get into the ready position, then doing a power cleaning of all colors while the tubing was clipped into one of those water sealed bags that they provide with new maintenance tanks-- the printer "colosomy bag" as ive been calling it.

This head has a bad yellow channel (it looks like it must have hit something at some point and the face of the nozzle plate is literally chipped off on the side (they uses MEMS technology for these nozzle plates, which essentially is like a circuitboard PCB-- not the most durable material in the world-- at least with this generation of this "DX7" head (they hate those naming conventions) they altered the gluing system so that each indiviudal pair of nozzle lines is physically separated from the other 8-- this is a great idea if you're in a situation to take advantage of it (it used to be that once the nozzle plate started to delaminate ANYWHERE you were days/months away from the whole thing coming unglued and ruining your head).  But they've never implemented a way for the end user to change one ink into another slot, so I guess it was just out of sheer engineering hubris?  Anyway, I'm happy for it.

So i've decided to give up on the orange channel and just call this a (hopefully) 8 channel printhead for now.  Thats plenty enough for my purposes for this project--

Basically I have a run of up to a hundred 9x12 metal prints to make, and what really makes it special will be the use of fluorescent pink and yellow.  I know these are not archival by any means, but it fits the project specs well (it was an artist who used a lot of fluorescent paints).

I got the fluorescent inks from Cosmo inks-- they seem to be the only ones selling these besides mimaki and epson, and I didn't really want to buy 1-2 liter bags and cut them open since I probably will switch these inks out immediately once the project is done... or else I'll move on to my 9900 and convert that to do bigger dye sub prints.

thanks to @DBerg for the recommendation of the Ink Owl sublimation inks-- I'm not 100% confident about their archival nature, although Joseph from Ink Owl has been extremely helpful and believes that all sublimation inks are essentially the same (given the incestuous nature of the industry I wouldn't be surprised if they're identical to some other OEM's inks).  But I will do a test compared to a chromaluxe panel printed with the Mimaki inks that I was using last time I ran a much bigger chromaluxe sublimation operation.  And I do like that they have multiple levels of black.  I'd love to try out their orange and green inks, but if this head can only do 8 channels or less, I'd probably end up going with something like CMYKLcLmLkLLk, or MAYBE orange/green instead of the light light black (I've found with some inksets, especially Epson's, that I've never needed more than one level of black to achieve acceptable smoothness.  With Mimaki, Lk was a necessity, their reddish black was way too heavily concentrated to get away without a dilute version.  And lest it's not obvious, dye-sub inks are dye-based, so there are no concerns about pigment buildup like with with the stuff i'm replacing.
Logged

Lessbones

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
    • Color Center
Re: Pigment Ink Solidification
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2024, 12:29:28 pm »

couple pics of the colostomy bag-- power cleaning emptied the other colors, and pooped out a bead of orange, every part of the capping station and dampers i cleaned in the sink with syringes
Logged

Kyle D Jackson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 182
    • Lone Leaf Photography
Re: Pigment Ink Solidification
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2024, 10:17:32 am »

couple pics of the colostomy bag-- power cleaning emptied the other colors, and pooped out a bead of orange

Analogies not getting better! 🤢 hahaha

It's funny how the printers all look the same inside. Wonder if there's just one group of contractors out there designing all the brands' printers.
Logged
Kyle D Jackson
Ottawa, Canada
Lone Leaf Photography

JCD

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 36
Re: Pigment Ink Solidification
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2024, 11:26:00 am »


UC orange, black, red, and yellow all have lots of density.

Anyone who leaves ink in an Epson for months is asking to have head and ink selector unit replaced and one huge mess with trying to flush out the lines as you see here. Also probably the  capping station can dry up warp and go bad too.

If you have to leave home for months the Q-Image solution is great but you need a super surge protection to prevent lightning from zapping the electronics. I killed a main board on a Cannon like that. Having the whole house protected plus an in house new surge protector is best.

These printers need to have something going through them every week.




If anybody's ever wondered why they usually have problems with the Orange ink first in their Epson printer, here's what it looks like after sitting in the lines for a few years--  Clearly the orange has a lot more/bigger pigment particles than any of the other colors (at least with ultrachrome HDR) ;)


Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up