Best Paper for Detail, DMAX, WP, Color Gamut and 3D Look?

[Brad P]

Canson Platine is last decade’s answer.  Is there any modern contender?  Always looking for better detail, more DMAX, a whiter white point, a broader color palate, as rich a substrate, and yet a paper that is easier to cut which doesn’t flake as much.

I am buying about 3 rolls of 4’W 50’+ roll paper, which as you know is ridiculously expensive and yet worth it.  I am likely going again for Platine again.  Thoughts appreciated.
 

[dgberg]

I cannot answer your question if their is something new out but for us our top 3 are.
Hahnemuhle FAB
Canson Etching Rag
Canson Platine Fiber Rag
Canvas sales still beat paper sales by about 15 to 1, still that popular.

A question on your cutting/flaking issues, what is the problem?

[Kyle Jackson]

Canson Platine is last decade’s answer.  Is there any modern contender?  Always looking for better detail, more DMAX, a whiter white point, a broader color palate, as rich a substrate, and yet a paper that is easier to cut which doesn’t flake as much.

I am buying about 3 rolls of 4’W 50’+ roll paper, which as you know is ridiculously expensive and yet worth it.  I am likely going again for Platine again.  Thoughts appreciated.

Hi Brad,

Lol. Ironically in what feels like a waning printing market, it feels like I've read more reports about papers getting worse, as some brands reformulate/replace their products, than getting better just because "more modern". I've seen people trying to hoard up old stock lol. Probably just a few papers like that, but it definitely cautions that more recent doesn't always equal better.

I think making gains in these areas is as at least as much about the printer and inks as the paper, particularly Dmax, "detail" (resolution vs coalescence?), and broader colour gamut. Tuning the link load and improved profiling can make significant gains, depending on your starting point. What are you printing from now? Is it still the Z3200 / HP inks?

As for WP (whiteness and brightness), as long as it's archival we're really limited by the manufacturing process. Only brightening agents are going to give a big boost. If manufacturer test data/specs aren't available, maybe you'll find some useful comparisons using @Ernst Dinkla's SpectrumViz database/software of paper colour measurements. I've found it useful to eyeball brightness of different papers (and whiteness to some extent), but have yet to have a chance to see how it pans out on real prints.

Wish I had direct paper suggestions to offer... I mean I'm as much interested in the answers as you are, especially since my experience is generally with non-archival papers (for various personal projects).  In my own browsing it seems the Canson Platine always floats out at/near the top. I recall some other names mentioned as well (think there was an Ilford Gold Silk something something paper...), but more often than not the availability (especially in my 24-inch roll size) and price is a huge factor for me, which kills off most other premium labels.

Cheers

[JCD]

Yes Platine for semi gloss and Rag Photographique for smooth matte have been my standards for a very long time. The Epson Legacy versions are the same.

Now there are three new ones that are as good or even better depending on your surface taste.

The new Canson Baryta 2 is outstanding and slightly brighter than the new Epson Baryta 2 which is very similar . I think both of them are great. I would buy some 8x10 sample sheets.

For matte rag , the super smooth surface Arches 88 is slightly smoother than rag photographique and has the best dmax of any rag paper out there. It’s also really sharp.  It’s too expensive in rolls for me so I stay where I am. But for little bw prints I love it.

All of these new Arches papers with various textures are great. I especially like BFK white and tge brighter BFK pure white. Aquerelle is a big improvement over the older Canson version for a true cold press watercolor surface

John

Hi Brad,

Lol. Ironically in what feels like a waning printing market, it feels like I've read more reports about papers getting worse, as some brands reformulate/replace their products, than getting better just because "more modern". I've see people trying to hoard up old stock lol. Probably just a few papers like that, but it definitely cautions that more recent doesn't always equal better.

I think making gains in these areas is as at least as much about the printer and inks as the paper, particularly Dmax, "detail" (resolution vs coalescence?), and broader colour gamut. Tuning the link load and improved profiling can make significant gains, depending on your starting point. What are you printing from now? Is it still the Z3200 / HP inks?

As for WP (whiteness and brightness), as long as it's archival we're really limited by the manufacturing process. Only brightening agents are going to give a big boost. If manufacturer test data/specs aren't available, maybe you'll find some useful comparisons using @Ernst Dinkla's SpectrumViz database/software of paper colour measurements. I've found it useful to eyeball brightness of different papers (and whiteness to some extent), but have yet to have a chance to see how it pans out on real prints.

Wish I had direct paper suggestions to offer... I mean I'm as much interested in the answers as you are, especially since my experience is generally with non-archival papers (for various personal projects).  In my own browsing it seems the Canson Platine always floats out at/near the top. I recall some other names mentioned as well (think there was an Ilford Gold Silk something something paper...), but more often than not the availability (especially in my 24-inch roll size) and price is a huge factor for me, which kills off most other premium labels.

Cheers

[Brad P]

A question on your cutting/flaking issues, what is the problem?

Thanks for your suggestions Dan, and I’ve read your insightful posts on canvas elsewhere.  One of the problems for me with Platine in particular is that when cut it can flake on the edges.  I like to flush mount paper to Dibond and with big prints in particular it’s quite difficult to get a clean edge.  There are workarounds I’ve found like cutting on glass instead of a mat as well as using Timeless or another sealer to basically hold the Baryta layer together, but it’s still an issue that doesn’t exist so much with, for example, Canson’s Baryta Photographique (which lacks the texture and includes slight OBAs). While I’m talking about that another trick is to basically gallery wrap the dibond around the Dibond edges as you would canvas, but still there are cracking issues there (that can be mostly overcome with Timeless)….

[Brad P]

. . . it feels like I've read more reports about papers getting worse, as some brands reformulate/replace their products, than getting better just because "more modern". I've see people trying to hoard up old stock lol. Probably just a few papers like that, but it definitely cautions that more recent doesn't always equal better.

I think making gains in these areas is as at least as much about the printer and inks as the paper, particularly Dmax, "detail" (resolution vs coalescence?), and broader colour gamut. Tuning the link load and improved profiling can make significant gains, depending on your starting point. What are you printing from now? Is it still the Z3200 / HP inks?

As for WP (whiteness and brightness), as long as it's archival we're really limited by the manufacturing process. Only brightening agents are going to give a big boost. If manufacturer test data/specs aren't available, maybe you'll find some useful comparisons using @Ernst Dinkla's SpectrumViz database/software of paper colour measurements. I've found it useful to eyeball brightness of different papers (and whiteness to some extent), but have yet to have a chance to see how it pans out on real prints.

Wish I had direct paper suggestions to offer... I mean I'm as much interested in the answers as you are, especially since my experience is generally with non-archival papers (for various personal projects).  In my own browsing it seems the Canson Platine always floats out at/near the top. I recall some other names mentioned as well (think there was an Ilford Gold Silk something something paper...), but more often than not the availability (especially in my 24-inch roll size) and price is a huge factor for me, which kills off most other premium labels.

Thanks for the thoughts, Kyle, we are of like mind.  I forgot about Enrst’s database — thanks for the reminder.  Every time I load up on paper I’m always confused by the entries into the market — Canson has had quite a few lately.  I’ll probably just need to do the obvious and get a sample pack of the new papers and see if there’s anything there that’s interesting.  But since I do my own profiling with large sample sizes, it’s a big pain to switch so I’m basically just wondering what other peoples’ experiences are with Platine vs. the new entrants. 

Actually, I just got rid of my 12 year old (?) Z3200.  It was great and the built in spectro made the whole setup a great deal especially once everyone figured out how to hack it to do large profiles.  But it finally died, and my patience to take it apart to fix it lapsed.  I picked up the new Canon 44” printer and absolutely love it.  Also had to get the i1Pro 3 plus to continue to do the profiling.  It’s really a super setup, but it was also expensive!   I probably will need to tweak the ink flow as you say, but it’s pretty darn good out of the box with the preprogrammed settings I’m using.  Maybe I can squeeze out a bit more there . . . I’ll have to see.

[Brad P]

Yes Platine for semi gloss and Rag Photographique for smooth matte have been my standards for a very long time. The Epson Legacy versions are the same.

Now there are three new ones that are as good or even better depending on your surface taste.

The new Canson Baryta 2 is outstanding and slightly brighter than the new Epson Baryta 2 which is very similar . I think both of them are great. I would buy some 8x10 sample sheets.

For matte rag , the super smooth surface Arches 88 is slightly smoother than rag photographique and has the best dmax of any rag paper out there. It’s also really sharp.  It’s too expensive in rolls for me so I stay where I am. But for little bw prints I love it.

All of these new Arches papers with various textures are great. I especially like BFK white and tge brighter BFK pure white. Aquerelle is a big improvement over the older Canson version for a true cold press watercolor surface

Thanks John — I picked up a roll of the new Arches 88 and and have now ditched the Canson Rag Photographique for it when I sometimes print on a matte surface.  It is stunning for a matte paper in DMax and color rendering, though I prefer the broader ranges afforded by a good Baryta surface.  A good Baryta to me just looks less abstract and ideally more like a continuation of the living space.  Personal taste for sure.  I will pick up a sample pack as you say to see the new Canson Baryta 2 — I imagine that’s basically just a whiter Baryta Photographique? 

[dgberg]

Thanks for your suggestions Dan, and I’ve read your insightful posts on canvas elsewhere.  One of the problems for me with Platine in particular is that when cut it can flake on the edges.  I like to flush mount paper to Dibond and with big prints in particular it’s quite difficult to get a clean edge.  There are workarounds I’ve found like cutting on glass instead of a mat as well as using Timeless or another sealer to basically hold the Baryta layer together, but it’s still an issue that doesn’t exist so much with, for example, Canson’s Baryta Photographique (which lacks the texture and includes slight OBAs). While I’m talking about that another trick is to basically gallery wrap the dibond around the Dibond edges as you would canvas, but still there are cracking issues there (that can be mostly overcome with Timeless)….

First to be clear not doubting you have an issue. Could be a batch issue. We cut quite a bit of this paper and have never had a problem. I mount quite a few to gator. Once adhered flip over and trim with a sharp utility knife. As a cutting mat we have a 1/4" plexi. I use the ones with the break off blades and only trim 2 prints before snapping off the old blade for a fresh new one. Holding your substrate firmly down to the mat is a must when trimming from the backside. The other way to trim is to mount the print to oversize gator then trim the print and gator with our new Keencut Evolution 3, best investment ever. Perfect edges.
Would like a little more info how you are actually trimming and with what equipment.

[Richard.Wills]

Canson Baryta Prestige 2 has way less edge chipping than Platine - a lovely paper, though the alpha cellulose base is certainly curlier than Platine.

Dan, are you finding any edge curling with the Evolution 3? We've got an Evolution Mk1, and when cutting prints mounted to Forex, there is a slight curl/lift at the cut. Shows up particularly with laminated RC prints. Can normally get  this to sit using a brayer roller, but adds an extra step to print finishing.

[dgberg]

My experience is with peel and stick gator. Yes it does tend to burl a bit. The bigger issue is the sharpness of both sides. If you have ever had the dreaded paper cut it can be nasty. Most get framed and do not need any edge work but I still chamfer that back edge with 80 grit 3m sandpaper and the front I usually roll that edge slightly with my thumb nail. Actually works quite good. You are right, extra steps I would prefer to not deal with. Sorry for going off topic.

[Kyle Jackson]

Every time I load up on paper I’m always confused by the entries into the market

I can definitely relate..., overwhelming brand/product list and seemingly constant renaming/rebranding (and reformulating) 😵

Actually, I just got rid of my 12 year old (?) Z3200.  It was great and the built in spectro made the whole setup a great deal especially once everyone figured out how to hack it to do large profiles.  But it finally died, and my patience to take it apart to fix it lapsed.  I picked up the new Canon 44” printer and absolutely love it.  Also had to get the i1Pro 3 plus to continue to do the profiling.  It’s really a super setup, but it was also expensive!   I probably will need to tweak the ink flow as you say, but it’s pretty darn good out of the box with the preprogrammed settings I’m using.  Maybe I can squeeze out a bit more there . . . I’ll have to see.

I weep the loss of another great Z3x00  haha but I totally get it. Gotta happen at some point to all of us. Losing that built-in spectro feels like a gut punch haha. I've been coddled by it I guess, so it still surprises me when I read around here and am reminded that not all printers actually have that. Good to know there are options tho, but I'm def not looking forward to the loss of space-efficiency.

[Kyle Jackson]

Once adhered flip over and trim with a sharp utility knife. As a cutting mat we have a 1/4" plexi. I use the ones with the break off blades and only trim 2 prints before snapping off the old blade for a fresh new one. Holding your substrate firmly down to the mat is a must when trimming from the backside.

Great cutting tips, thanks Dan! I think I regularly underestimate just how quickly this stuff dulls a blade, and the importance of using a new/sharp edge.

[Richard.Wills]

My pocket knives are olfa 30º, but for reverse cut, I have an octet of scalpel handles with S&M10a blades.

Print face down on tissue, on a 6mm toughened glass sheet (4 sheets salvaged from a shop display unit dumped in the street !).
One blade per edge, for DiBond mounted prints. Cutting through the print and tissue lightly bonds them together, giving a small degree of protection to the print surface, and allowing you to lift the mounted print from the glass until the 4th edge is cut.
Plexi would allow to move the whole lot over the edge of the table, and bend back the plexi, to lift the print. 

Tried one 8x4 of Gator once, first handling, straight through the gloves on eight out of ten digits. Realised it was like handling glass, and took Telium pad to it. Switched from cotton gloves to nitrile for the remainder of the job, to stop staining the prints.

Sorry, deviating.

[Brad P]

Thanks for the diversions.  I’m getting cutter envy.   

Back to topic, I’ve received and been over samples of the new Baryta Photographique II and it’s nice but too shiny and texture free for my taste.  I’ve ordered some Hahnemuele Photo Baryta Rag glossy to take another look at that before pulling the trigger.  That has a marginally higher whiteness  (91% v 89%) and Dmax (2.8 v 2.7).  It’s also glossier, but has more pronounced micro-texture.  And it seems quite a bit more expensive.  I want to take another look at that before executing my order. 

Any practical thoughts on C Platine vs. H PBR would be welcome.  The flaking thing for me is very real.  Nothing like doing a 42” print on dibond and having a flake.  Almost enough to drive me to canvas!   😂