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Author Topic: Profiling Backlit films  (Read 1189 times)

MatkoD

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Profiling Backlit films
« on: June 02, 2023, 11:06:03 am »

Hello,

I'm looking for the right way to make an .icc profile for backlit film. I have done a regular target print, mounted it on white surface, measured it and completed the procedure. It is OK when you look at it, but quite pale when put on the lightbox. So how do you print / measure? Are there any standards doing it? Measuring the target mounted on a lightbox maybe? What light as a box source?

Thanks
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digitaldog

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2023, 12:02:40 pm »

Not going to work without something like a DTP-41T made for transmissive measurements. Even with that, it's sometimes an iffy affair.
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Lessbones

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2023, 06:43:40 pm »

There are a number of (very expensive) options from Barbieri which work great for this purpose.  I'm using a LFP S3 and it's great if a little finicky.
 I bought a DTP-41T before I caved and got the LFP but it never seemed to work super well--  I got better results doing one patch at a time with a spectroscan-T.

The i1pro3 can do backlit measurements now-- you basically place your substrate on a backlit panel, do a flat-field compensation measurement to compensate for color/density differences across the panel, then measure the chart.  I'm guessing it still has to do one patch at a time (I haven't used it myself) since it takes longer to measure transmissive patches than reflective ones, so it would probably be extremely tedious to do manually.  Lastly, you can use older i1pro versions with argyllcms to measure transmissive patches, but I don't know of a way to compensate for the backlight panel, which really needs to be done unless you move each patch into the exact same spot to measure it, like you do with the spectroscan-T.

As to your last question about what light as a source-- if you're going to go the i1pro way, you should use a light as close as possible to the one you're gonna end up actually using in the final lightbox.  If you go  with one of the purpose built tools for this purpose, the bulb has a known spectral quality, so you can interpolate to a lot of different light sources from your measurements.
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arobinson7547

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2023, 10:44:13 am »

before MY LFP S3, I would put my target directly on the light box and measure with an i1 Pro.
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MfAlab

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2023, 01:48:34 am »

As the previous posts in this thread, i1pro3 is a cheaper choice. But if you really want to get a better result, get one barbieri spectrometer. LFP S3 is good, newer LFP qb is better. I've used them both, qb has many improvements on mechanics, illuminant, and variable usage. The measurement head could be used as a portable spectrometer like x-rite eXact. When installed on the platform, it can measure thick boards and backlit film.
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dgberg

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2023, 06:28:51 am »

I just received a roll of the Kodak Backlit Glossy 8 Mil Solvent from Lexjet .
My Onyx Rip has a generic backlit film profile which I am going to try out.
Lexjet doesn’t seem to have a .oml profile for the Kodak product.
Please let me know how you make out with making your own profile. I make them for my pigment printer but have never jumped into .oml for my solvent. What printer and Rip are you working with? Have you tried any of the generic profiles to date?

Lessbones

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2023, 11:46:16 am »

you can likely use that profile to decent effect if you relinearize through onyx, but I'd imagine it's generic CMYK and wouldn't take advantage of the extra channels you have on that printer?  Could be wrong, if it's specifically for an Epson solvent machine then it's likely going to be much easier to use than making your own--  profiling CMYK+N is a whole bag of worms, and something I've been working on getting right for years now without feeling super comfortable with it, and good luck finding any useful advice online...

Generally speaking, in profiling backlit films you measure the white of the paper to give you Lab: 100,0,0 so profiles should transfer fairly well between media with the same ink technology (assuming of course that you linearize, and your primaries aren't drastically different hues from the ones used to create the profile in the first place).
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MatkoD

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2023, 07:13:34 am »

before MY LFP S3, I would put my target directly on the light box and measure with an i1 Pro.

Hello,

done just that, but no visible difference between test prints - 1st icc done on white paper backgroud, 2nd on lightbox. No visible difference in colour density ie. both prints looks pale on light box...
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MatkoD

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2023, 07:26:25 am »

As the previous posts in this thread, i1pro3 is a cheaper choice. But if you really want to get a better result, get one barbieri spectrometer. LFP S3 is good, newer LFP qb is better. I've used them both, qb has many improvements on mechanics, illuminant, and variable usage. The measurement head could be used as a portable spectrometer like x-rite eXact. When installed on the platform, it can measure thick boards and backlit film.

Thanks, but I don't regulary print on Backlit film. Just got 2 Rolls of Fuji film, thought that making a correct profile would be a simple process, as allways with paper profiles was. Currently on iOne Pro 1, no intention to switch to something like Barbieri (maybe to iOne Pro 3 in distant future)
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Lessbones

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2023, 11:19:35 am »

there should be a pretty massive difference unless you're measuring both in a reflective mode.  When measuring on a light box there should be no light coming out of the i1 itself when you press the button.  Are you using argyll to do the light box measurement?  It's the only way (i know of) to put the first/second generation i1 device into a transmissible measuring mode for measuring printed output.
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dgberg

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2023, 12:13:51 pm »

Curious what printer and inkjet?

MatkoD

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2023, 12:05:35 pm »

there should be a pretty massive difference unless you're measuring both in a reflective mode.  When measuring on a light box there should be no light coming out of the i1 itself when you press the button.  Are you using argyll to do the light box measurement?  It's the only way (i know of) to put the first/second generation i1 device into a transmissible measuring mode for measuring printed output.

Oh, I see, didn't use argyll but PMP 5. Will try Argyll. Thanks!
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MatkoD

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2023, 12:06:34 pm »

Curious what printer and inkjet?

In my case SC-P9000, FujiFilm Backlit
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BAB

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Re: Profiling Backlit films
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2023, 05:31:04 pm »

hey the Fujifilm display is 7mm thick kinda thin, the old Kodak was the best not available anymore, I'm now using the Epson display trans the newest version is way good. I print on a P8000
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