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BernardLanguillier

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Japanese washi papers?
« on: February 06, 2023, 02:25:30 am »

Hi team,

I have been very happy about Awagami ink jet papers, in particular their heavier stocks. The ImagePrint profiles are also pretty good.

I was wondering whether someone was using inkjet washi from another Japanese provider?

Thank you.

Regards,
Bernard

mcbroomf

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2023, 07:19:53 am »

Hi team,

I have been very happy about Awagami ink jet papers, in particular their heavier stocks. The ImagePrint profiles are also pretty good.

I was wondering whether someone was using inkjet washi from another Japanese provider?

Thank you.

Regards,
Bernard

I have used the Moab Moenkopi Unryu for a few prints.  It's very thin (55gsm) and not at all smooth as the fibers are very distinct (you can see them clearly in the image on the paper page linked).  Choice of image is key for this paper to my mind .. more than others perhaps.  So far I have liked flowers and some hi key images of trees.  Moab have profiles for it.  It is made by Awagami though.
https://www.moabpaper.com/moenkopi-washi
https://awagami.com/collections/inkjet-papers/products/unryu-thin-55gsm-white-swirling-fibers

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2023, 09:31:58 pm »

Thank you Mike!

Cheers,
Bernard

deanwork

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2023, 07:16:50 pm »

There are basically four sources that I’m aware of.

I’ve used them all with great results for many years. Two have been mentioned ( Moab versions are Awagami made.

A different Japanese paper importer is Hiromi .  They have been selling high-end Washi forever and have lots of beautiful options.

You can use any of them on inkjet but the versions with the inkjet receptor coating are the most photographic in terms of resolution, gamut, and dmax.

https://hiromipaper.com/

Also Freestyle in LA sells Awagami.  https://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/9-Paper/Inkjet-Paper?sort=name&max=24&mfg%5B%5D=283&q=awagami

John
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MfAlab

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2023, 01:09:03 am »

I know two main manufactures, Awagami and Isewashi, but only tested Awagami many years ago. My experience, ink density is low and gamut volume is small. The coating is very different with modern western papers. Papers are covered with some kind of powder. I'm not the fan of them. Texture is special and beautiful, but pulp itself is not. IMHO, too much filler and paper is too crisp.

Actually, Mitsubishi has their own washi too. And I have some printed images show yellowing and deterioration after 15 years stored in dark. All these papers show alum in it. That's not a good sign for archival.
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Ryan Mack

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2023, 05:35:00 pm »

I'm returning from a Japaneses photo trip and was planning on experimenting with washi for some of the images. For those of you who have printed on the thinner paper stocks, have you tried backlighting them?
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mcbroomf

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2023, 10:25:20 am »

I'm returning from a Japaneses photo trip and was planning on experimenting with washi for some of the images. For those of you who have printed on the thinner paper stocks, have you tried backlighting them?

I don't have a direct answer for you but several years ago there were a number of threads about the short lived Epson Kozo Thin paper.  It was a double layered paper and after printing, you would separate the printed layer from the backing leaving a very thin layer (thinner than the Moab Unryu 55) that looked good backlit.  If you use the forum search, select only the Print forum (this one) and enter Epson Kozo you will get many threads.  Lots to do with availability but check them as posts about use are interwoven.

Awagami make double layered Kozo and Mitsumata inkjet papers that can be separated.  They seem to be in stock at Freestyle.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/search?q=Double+Layered
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/inkjet-paper-transfer-tips


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deanwork

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2023, 11:02:41 am »

Like he said, the short lived Epson Kozo thin was a great media to backlight and with superior dmax, gamut, and sharpness. But Epson in their ignorance and focus on garbage signage media killed it before it was even released in the US !

I had a show of my work that was primarily printed on that Epson kozo thin material that I ordered from London, and backlit the prints with daylight on big windows facing the street. It functioned great at night in the gallery and in daylight backlit. Prints are light as a feather. I used the Worell method and in 6 years of showing and storage they all are tight and still perfectly mounted. I used PVA book binding glue.

https://youtu.be/8fctOHjfWoI

Toward the end of the series I ran out of the Epson Kozo and used the Awagami Thin Kozo for a couple of prints. Nobody noticed the difference.  I was able to use the same mounting technique of misting it with distilled water gluing it to a wooden frame where it worked like a stretcher frame. The Awagami looked very good, though nothing is as photographic as the short lived Epson stuff. Doesn’t matter, kozo is what it is and works really well if high contrast and high saturation aren’t critical.

I did another couple of prints 40x60 that were shown by my client in a window also facing the street in San Francisco. People loved them and bought them. Those were Awagami Kozo Thin hung from a wooden drapery rod
With another rod attached to the bottom . To ship them we just rolled up the object and put it in a tube. They were shown like we show silk or other fabric prints.

You could stretch a 40x60 on a thin wooden frame also. That would keep them drum tight and weigh almost nothing. I’ll do that again someday.

John






I don't have a direct answer for you but several years ago there were a number of threads about the short lived Epson Kozo Thin paper.  It was a double layered paper and after printing, you would separate the printed layer from the backing leaving a very thin layer (thinner than the Moab Unryu 55) that looked good backlit.  If you use the forum search, select only the Print forum (this one) and enter Epson Kozo you will get many threads.  Lots to do with availability but check them as posts about use are interwoven.

Awagami make double layered Kozo and Mitsumata inkjet papers that can be separated.  They seem to be in stock at Freestyle.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/search?q=Double+Layered
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/inkjet-paper-transfer-tips
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mcbroomf

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2023, 03:25:03 pm »

John, did you varnish them for protection and/or longevity?

Thx

Mike
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Richard.Wills

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2023, 05:46:15 pm »

Hey John,

I still have a few 17" rolls of the Epson Kozo - use them sparingly for deserving clients.
How did/do you find the Awagami Thin Kozo transports through the printer?  I'm currently running a Canon 8400. I've a number of clients for whom a similar 24 or 44" media would work really well.

I found the Epson Kozo, amazing. When against a bright white backer, it was almost like photorag, but translucent / transflective was where it really shone, and the strength and durability was without compare.

That you're likely to use it again is enough to make me (almost) place an order tomorrow for a test roll. Any comments on how it behaves in machine would be greatly appreciated.



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deanwork

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2023, 11:03:09 pm »

I wish I had bought a ton of that stuff when it was available.


It went through my Z3200 and Canon 8300 with no issues. I actually used the thick Awagami also for backlit. It works fine. You might want to test them both with the sample pack before ordering a big roll. The stuff is expensive as hell since the pandemic . It shouldn’t be but it is. You can order uncoated kozo used for block printing for cheap. I used to do pigment printing on that before the inkjet coated material came along.

Yes I did spray them front and back with Premiere Art uv varnish.

It blows my mind that Epson never promoted the finest and the only great media they ever developed. They could have charged twice the price and I would have bought it. The Epson  version designed by Gary Wourell was blended with cotton fibers. It was a brilliantly designed innovative product. Who ever is in control of Epson marketing should be fired yesterday. All they care about is their signage crap .  I really wish Gary would pitch this product to Canson who could really do something with it. I bet they would and their coating facilities are the best in the world. I remember emailing with him back and forth at one time and he was really disappointed that it never even got released for trial in the North American market. Bean counters at Epson  killed it before it had a chance.




Hey John,

I still have a few 17" rolls of the Epson Kozo - use them sparingly for deserving clients.
How did/do you find the Awagami Thin Kozo transports through the printer?  I'm currently running a Canon 8400. I've a number of clients for whom a similar 24 or 44" media would work really well.

I found the Epson Kozo, amazing. When against a bright white backer, it was almost like photorag, but translucent / transflective was where it really shone, and the strength and durability was without compare.

That you're likely to use it again is enough to make me (almost) place an order tomorrow for a test roll. Any comments on how it behaves in machine would be greatly appreciated.
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dgberg

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2023, 08:26:10 am »

Still have a half roll of the Epson Kozo from years ago. Just waiting for the right job to use it up.
beautiful product.

Richard.Wills

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2023, 08:12:24 am »

Just got a test roll of the Awagami Kozo thin White.

Couple of observations.
The paper is much "harder" than EKT - less soft in the hand, and much harder on a scalpel.
The gamut (profiler 2371 patches) is way smaller than the Epson, particularly in the reds. The outback test image strawberries are about three days past their best. That said, monochromes are looking pretty good.
Transport through the 8400 is painless, the paper seems very compliant with no aggressive curl and without the (Epson) backer shouldn't have any issues with piping.

I started with the Awagami Kozo thin white, as I can get it in 17 & 24" as well as 44". The thin natural is only available (from my supplier) in 44", which was just a touch too expensive to get a roll to test.

I think it will have a place in our range of options, just no poppy fields, post boxes, Arsenal, Liverpool or United, or London Buses.


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mcbroomf

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2023, 09:00:40 am »

I just ordered a roll of Awagami Murakumo Kozo 42gsm White (Parchment-like).  2-3 weeks or more ordered directly from Awagami, together with some deckle edged paper.

Will have to start looking for images to suit.
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deanwork

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2023, 11:18:45 am »

Yea Richard, you are correct, the only color work you can do on it is in the realm of low saturation hues.
I did do some really nice split-tone things though going from bluish shadows to sepia highlights. They looked quite dimensional but 95% of what I’ve done on the Awagami was bw.

 Besides the really good color gamut of that Epson kozo-cotton blend, it also had exceptional sharpness and dmax for such a washi looking paper. What a great coating that everyone should be using on washi.

Why can’t Awagami or Hiromi  just reverse engineer the Worell formula and make their own? Or hell,  hire him to do it? He needs a backer. I bet he would come out with all kinds of great versions.

I know one thing, all this stuff is way too expensive, including Canson, Arches, and Hahnemuehle papers. Cotton and mulberry papers are just not that expensive to produce. Actually there has been very little innovation in the last 20 years.

John



Just got a test roll of the Awagami Kozo thin White.

Couple of observations.
The paper is much "harder" than EKT - less soft in the hand, and much harder on a scalpel.
The gamut (profiler 2371 patches) is way smaller than the Epson, particularly in the reds. The outback test image strawberries are about three days past their best. That said, monochromes are looking pretty good.
Transport through the 8400 is painless, the paper seems very compliant with no aggressive curl and without the (Epson) backer shouldn't have any issues with piping.

I started with the Awagami Kozo thin white, as I can get it in 17 & 24" as well as 44". The thin natural is only available (from my supplier) in 44", which was just a touch too expensive to get a roll to test.

I think it will have a place in our range of options, just no poppy fields, post boxes, Arsenal, Liverpool or United, or London Buses.
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Ryan Mack

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2023, 09:34:31 am »

I reached out to Gary to better understand what happened with his Kozo paper and he was kind enough to respond, CCing someone at Epson Europe.  I won't be posting his response here given it was a private conversation. It sounds like the odds of this paper coming back are next to nothing. I'll update here if I heard anything from Epson.
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soharaus

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2023, 07:56:02 pm »

I contacted Gary last year for some icc profiles for the Epson Kozo paper. He was very helpful and forthcoming. I broached the same subject of Epson Kozo making a comeback. Gary had spent an enormous amount of time, effort and intellectual capital to make Epson Kozo a reality. Apparently some suits in Epson America nixed selling the paper in the US due to the NIH (not invented here) syndrome. To resurrect it it may take almost $300,000 - 500,000 (my estimate) - that is if Gary decides to get involved. A pity that executives can make these kind of decisions that affect so many of us. I am so glad I have a few rolls.
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deanwork

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2023, 06:16:28 pm »

Gary did a great service and is a real gentleman. Best media Epson ever had their name on.

Don’t understand this not invented here syndrome. I don’t use anything that was invented here, including the Epson “Legacy” ( Canson) line that they tried to pass off as something they created, not.




I contacted Gary last year for some icc profiles for the Epson Kozo paper. He was very helpful and forthcoming. I broached the same subject of Epson Kozo making a comeback. Gary had spent an enormous amount of time, effort and intellectual capital to make Epson Kozo a reality. Apparently some suits in Epson America nixed selling the paper in the US due to the NIH (not invented here) syndrome. To resurrect it it may take almost $300,000 - 500,000 (my estimate) - that is if Gary decides to get involved. A pity that executives can make these kind of decisions that affect so many of us. I am so glad I have a few rolls.
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richardman42

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Re: Japanese washi papers?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2023, 11:42:41 pm »

I still have > 10 rolls of Epson Kozo in 24" and 13". 17" is down to one or two rolls. Such great paper....
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