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Author Topic: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]  (Read 1865 times)

keithcooper

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A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« on: July 18, 2022, 09:06:25 am »

It's taken a while to get one to try out from Epson UK, but I've had a chance to try out the P7500 for a few weeks.

From a print quality POV, one of the best printers I've tried. No problems on a wide range of media, including profiling and custom media creation.

There is a longish review at
https://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-surecolor-p7500-printer-review/

A video review overview [~35mins]
https://youtu.be/o9pad_KVzSc

It needed resting for a day after being bounced round in a van, and being tipped on its side to get it in, but after that, no issues at all.

I'm aware of the limitations of testing over just a few weeks, but there's no aspect of the printer I saw which would give me concern if I was getting one.


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deanwork

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2022, 01:33:33 pm »

Keith,

It’s interesting that I’ve heard nothing but nightmares about the 9570 and it’s inability to print on rolls of the 300 gsm and up media we all use without head strikes, paper scrapes and ripping media off the
roll , breaking plastic parts, inability to print on thin Japanese papers etc. There are lots of really really discouraging descriptions over the last couple of years on the Epson io list, that firmware updates and multiple tech visits have not helped, and some here too. Just do a search on that site for Epson 9570 issues, or look at this guys reviews on you tube. These are very experienced printmakers from different countries that are experiencing the same exact  things, US, Canada, Europe, Taiwan, etc.

https://youtu.be/x2f8AHc6wAs

Has Epson resolved all these issues ?  If so, people have been super quiet about it. 

There are far fewer comments about the 7590 having these nightmarish issues though. I’m not sure why that is.

I need a 9570 but I’m scared after talking to numerous owners who have had them a year or two for daily quantity print runs.

John



It's taken a while to get one to try out from Epson UK, but I've had a chance to try out the P7500 for a few weeks.

From a print quality POV, one of the best printers I've tried. No problems on a wide range of media, including profiling and custom media creation.

There is a longish review at
https://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-surecolor-p7500-printer-review/

A video review overview [~35mins]
https://youtu.be/o9pad_KVzSc

It needed resting for a day after being bounced round in a van, and being tipped on its side to get it in, but after that, no issues at all.

I'm aware of the limitations of testing over just a few weeks, but there's no aspect of the printer I saw which would give me concern if I was getting one.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 01:37:27 pm by deanwork »
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keithcooper

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2022, 06:34:43 pm »

I tried some pretty thick media without problems after creating custom media settings.
No problems at all.

The printer was one of Epson's [UK] demo machines - the only thing I did was to update the firmware (from the Epson UK site).

I can only cover what happens with the printer I have to test, where i know what I've done and how it's worked. I'd have liked to have it for a bit longer, but I'm happy I gave it a good workout

*Looking back over my notes, I did get a paper meandering error on one long pano print - I clicked to ignore it. Couldn't see any issues and didn't see it again.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 06:55:15 pm by keithcooper »
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deanwork

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2022, 09:18:50 pm »

I totally believe you. You are very thorough and have been doing it a long time.

To me this is the printer that I’ve waited 20 years for Epson to offer. And I’ve had prints made so image quality is excellent .  It’s the best bw I’ve seen come out of an Epson with ABW.

I’m just afraid the 44” model is going to have to go through serious rebuilding  before it’s safe to buy, if they take the trouble to do that. Otherwise I’m facing the fact of buying a P9000 in the fall.

There have just been bad reports from everyone I’ve talked to who owns the 9570, and these are very experienced guys and spent over a year patiently trying everything.

But it looks like maybe the 24” model is safe to go with, and your review pretty much confirms that. I wish I could get by with 24”.

John



I tried some pretty thick media without problems after creating custom media settings.
No problems at all.

The printer was one of Epson's [UK] demo machines - the only thing I did was to update the firmware (from the Epson UK site).

I can only cover what happens with the printer I have to test, where i know what I've done and how it's worked. I'd have liked to have it for a bit longer, but I'm happy I gave it a good workout

*Looking back over my notes, I did get a paper meandering error on one long pano print - I clicked to ignore it. Couldn't see any issues and didn't see it again.
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keithcooper

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2022, 10:50:10 am »

One of the tings I did note was that this printer is in many ways more similar to the P20000 I looked at a while ago, than the P7000, in terms of paper feeding and the print head.

It looks similar to the P7000 - I saw both in Epson UK's demo centre and from a distance didn't know which was which.

One big difference is in the extra paper feed/tensioning roller at the start of the paper path. For some reason Epson marketing doesn't seem to really emphasise the changes, making the 7000->7500 model number change look less significant than it probably is. The difference in weight and dedicated cleaning access make it feel just that bit more 'serious'

Now, I've not a huge experience of custom media settings for the P7000 and P7500, but one bit of informal techy advice I did get with the printer was to treat it as an entirely new printer from the POV of creating custom media settings and profiling.

Actually, I do that anyway for every printer I look at! Especially when it's here for just under 3 weeks ;-)
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deanwork

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2022, 12:11:17 pm »

New ones were designed for speed and production. The head and inks are like the P10k 20k. It’s great being able to access the head easier.

It handles media completely differently from previous models. Paper transport is much stronger, for better or worse, mostly worse from what I’ve heard. Platen gap and ink limit setting are much more critical and it sometimes takes people weeks to find a combination that totally works, or not, depending on the media ( 9570 ). Besides the scuffing and head strikes the other complaints relate to image banding and resolution reduction especially on the edges of the paper. There has been a lot of trial and error going on. But all these things I’ve heard are regarding the 44” model.

The great thing of course is the auto MK to PK switching which Canon and HP have had for about 14 years now.

Looks to me like they did all their media beta testing on the 24” model, or set it up for specific Epson media, or both.

John







One of the tings I did note was that this printer is in many ways more similar to the P20000 I looked at a while ago, than the P7000, in terms of paper feeding and the print head.

It looks similar to the P7000 - I saw both in Epson UK's demo centre and from a distance didn't know which was which.

One big difference is in the extra paper feed/tensioning roller at the start of the paper path. For some reason Epson marketing doesn't seem to really emphasise the changes, making the 7000->7500 model number change look less significant than it probably is. The difference in weight and dedicated cleaning access make it feel just that bit more 'serious'

Now, I've not a huge experience of custom media settings for the P7000 and P7500, but one bit of informal techy advice I did get with the printer was to treat it as an entirely new printer from the POV of creating custom media settings and profiling.

Actually, I do that anyway for every printer I look at! Especially when it's here for just under 3 weeks ;-)
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markgunion

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2022, 03:35:41 pm »

Since the individual machine that Keith tested is sent around to trade shows and loaned out to reviewers, I think we can safely assume that this individual machine is relatively free of the problems that others have reported with this series.   What we don't know here is the denominator.

Mark G.
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keithcooper

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2022, 04:08:19 pm »

Since the individual machine that Keith tested is sent around to trade shows and loaned out to reviewers, I think we can safely assume that this individual machine is relatively free of the problems that others have reported with this series.   What we don't know here is the denominator.
Mark G.
Have there been more issues reported with P7500 or P9500 printers?



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markgunion

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2022, 07:50:30 pm »

I follow the same group than John does (EpsonWideFormat@groups.io).    Since that's where almost all of my information comes from, I can't say much more than John has already.   I do note that there are fewer complaints about the 7500/7570 than the 9500/9570, but again there's a denominator problem.    Since the complaints are coming from people who run print shops of various kinds, I would expect that those people would more likely have purchased the larger machines than the smaller ones for throughput reasons; hence, more complaints about the larger machines.    There certainly have been complaints from professional shops running the 7500/7570 that are similar to those regarding the larger unit.    As John said, very few complaints come in the context of RC papers; mostly, the complaints are related to papers that are heavy or fragile.

I enjoyed your series on the 7500/7570.   I watched them all as you released them.   Thank you for doing those.

Mark G.
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Rand47

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2022, 09:44:10 pm »

I’m an SC P7570 owner, and VERY early adopter.  It was a nightmare in the beginning.  Long story that I will not reiterate here - a simple search should yield plenty of info.

“Today” after over 10 driver, firmware and EMI updates (cumulatively) the printer is “mostly” reliable.  But problems still abound for many using the 44” version, and even on the 24” version I’m careful to not step on any of the known landmines.

To wit:

I no longer allow the printer to get to the end of a roll of paper.  I add a 30” fudge factor to my paper use spreadsheet, and quit when I get to that last (wasted) 30”.  I sometimes cut this remainder into usable sheet sizes.  “Someitmes” - but it is often more time consuming and a PITA than it’s worth in terms of the cost of wastage.  I don’t recall if Keith mentions getting to the end of a roll successfully w/o it ripping the paper off the core, and dragging tape through the rollers.  This makes a horrendous noise, and makes an incredible mess that takes some time to remove all the debris.  If  he has not come successfully to the end of a roll of say, Epson Legacy Platine, I would consider his review “excellent” but not complete.  It isn’t his intention, or “job” to look at all the anecdotal (albeit real) information on the problems / challenges of the various printers he has the opportunity to test.  I get that.  But at the same time, it could easily lead to a misapprehension of the printer “in toto” in actual use.  I’m not a high production shop.  I’m a boutique fine art, low volume, print shop.  So, it isn’t just a “high production” situation that will see these issues.  It’s entirely possible to print with one of these machines for a relatively short period and encounter zero problems.  There are lots more issues that I could elucidate, but again, a look at the Epson Wide Format User List group, or a search on this site and others will fill anyone in who is interested.  And as been mentioned above, the folk having these issues are typically VERY experienced printers, with many years of successful printing on earlier versions of Epson’s large format printers.  So it isn’t lack of experience, or not understanding creating appropriate custom media types and registering them to the printer, or a lack of high quality custom ICC profiles.   

I love my 7570, but it is far from perfect, and I have to be uber careful with it in order to not run afoul of some of its more “interesting quirks.”

Rand
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 10:08:31 pm by Rand47 »
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hubell

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2022, 09:00:55 am »

There are a number of possible explanations of why Keith did not run into any of the issues that have been reported by many users of the 9570 on the Wide Format User List. The "ideal" explanation would be that he had loaded the new firmware into his printer before commencing his review. While nobody has yet claimed the firmware update has solved all of the issues that have come up with these printers, I also do not recall seeing any recent reports about the long standing issues with the 7570/9570 printers since the new firmware was released.

deanwork

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2022, 01:09:51 pm »

This seems to be the last post on the firmware topic.

It doesn’t look like the head strikes and paper scuffing were changed by the firmware, but possibly helps with the truly horrible events of paper ripping off the rolls and causing head damage from that.




https://groups.io/g/EpsonWideFormat/topic/epson_9570_head_strikes/91497254?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C20%2C0

John



There are a number of possible explanations of why Keith did not run into any of the issues that have been reported by many users of the 9570 on the Wide Format User List. The "ideal" explanation would be that he had loaded the new firmware into his printer before commencing his review. While nobody has yet claimed the firmware update has solved all of the issues that have come up with these printers, I also do not recall seeing any recent reports about the long standing issues with the 7570/9570 printers since the new firmware was released.
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hubell

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2022, 01:32:12 pm »

This seems to be the last post on the firmware topic.

It doesn’t look like the head strikes and paper scuffing were changed by the firmware, but possibly helps with the truly horrible events of paper ripping off the rolls and causing head damage from that.




https://groups.io/g/EpsonWideFormat/topic/epson_9570_head_strikes/91497254?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C20%2C0

John

Yes, I read that thread. However, nobody who has actually upgraded the firmware has reported back that they are still having issues with head strike issues. No news is sometimes good news, but not always. I will actually follow up on that thread.

John Hollenberg

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2022, 03:59:41 pm »

I just love this quote from the Epson.io thread:

"But they had nothing to say about head strikes others than "it's the design of the printer... the head is too close to the paper... and the printer doesn't hold down the heavyweight papers properly".  So a little elevation of the paper puts it closer to the print head and head strike............!"

While this is apparently from Decision One, if Epson could fix it with firmware they probably would have fixed it by now.
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deanwork

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2022, 05:51:16 pm »

Thats what I said a year ago. Still waiting. I would be satisfied if they come out with a new model made correctly and call it 9570 B .






While this is apparently from Decision One, if Epson could fix it with firmware they probably would have fixed it by now.
[/quote]
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 08:43:50 pm by deanwork »
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Rand47

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2022, 10:33:38 am »

I just love this quote from the Epson.io thread:

"But they had nothing to say about head strikes others than "it's the design of the printer... the head is too close to the paper... and the printer doesn't hold down the heavyweight papers properly".  So a little elevation of the paper puts it closer to the print head and head strike............!"

While this is apparently from Decision One, if Epson could fix it with firmware they probably would have fixed it by now.

I “think” that it is also a combination of the head being close to the platen, AND the ink loads required for a “proper image.”  (Early on, ink pooling was a significant problem!  Some 3rd party paper mfgs. had lowering the ink density by 10-15% as part of the instructions for using their ICC profiles!)  One owner, in the Netherlands could not solve this problem and eventually made his dealer take the printer back. Subsequent firmware / driver updates seem to have ameliorated this issue to a large extent.

On my 7570 I never run it in high speed mode.  This gives a bit more drying time per pass (and better image quality, some say).  It also seems to make more sense of the anecdotal inference that there are more “paper swelling - head strike” problems with the 9570’s wider carriage where wider rolls of paper more easily swell “in the middle.”

My 7570 is now somewhat well behaved due to manifold firmware / driver / EMI updates, AND because I am very careful in creating custom media (I take calipers to papers to get an accurate thickness measurement to enter).  I also always have a generous (wasteful) leading edge to a print (thank the heavens I’m not a production printer, this would kill me).  I’ve also learned that when an image is significantly “down tone / low key,” or has areas of very dark tones in it, to lower the ink density (color density in the driver) by up to 15%.  This is the practical limit before I notice a change (degradation) in image quality.  If I don’t do this, I get little “mouse tracks” where the head drags itself through the wet ink from previous passes.  It’s not a head strike in the normal sense of “grounding out on the paper.”   All this fussing about to keep from having serious problems is time consuming, paper wasting, nonsense.  But it has become 2nd nature to me in using the printer (sadly).  I love what comes out of this printer.  It is spectacular.  And I love the sheet feed mechanism.  It is the best in the industry, IMO.  But this machine is far from something you can use casually w/o any notes to refer to, or “turning about three times, facing west, patting your head and stomach at the same time, and applying whatever incantation works best for you” in order to get exceptional results.  As a production printer, it would be a complete disaster, as many production shops have reported.

Rand
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 10:41:07 am by Rand47 »
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deanwork

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2022, 12:24:27 pm »

Yea , all that sounds right on target and an honest appraisal.  I’ve had these printers of all the brands for 20 years now for artwork and none of them ever gave me even remotely that kind of headache. It makes zero sense to me to upgrade to the worst performing inkjet printer in inkjet history. What a shame, it could have been a contender.

Is the image quality when it’s working really any improvement over the P9000?

John






I “think” that it is also a combination of the head being close to the platen, AND the ink loads required for a “proper image.”  (Early on, ink pooling was a significant problem!  Some 3rd party paper mfgs. had lowering the ink density by 10-15% as part of the instructions for using their ICC profiles!)  One owner, in the Netherlands could not solve this problem and eventually made his dealer take the printer back. Subsequent firmware / driver updates seem to have ameliorated this issue to a large extent.

On my 7570 I never run it in high speed mode.  This gives a bit more drying time per pass (and better image quality, some say).  It also seems to make more sense of the anecdotal inference that there are more “paper swelling - head strike” problems with the 9570’s wider carriage where wider rolls of paper more easily swell “in the middle.”

My 7570 is now somewhat well behaved due to manifold firmware / driver / EMI updates, AND because I am very careful in creating custom media (I take calipers to papers to get an accurate thickness measurement to enter).  I also always have a generous (wasteful) leading edge to a print (thank the heavens I’m not a production printer, this would kill me).  I’ve also learned that when an image is significantly “down tone / low key,” or has areas of very dark tones in it, to lower the ink density (color density in the driver) by up to 15%.  This is the practical limit before I notice a change (degradation) in image quality.  If I don’t do this, I get little “mouse tracks” where the head drags itself through the wet ink from previous passes.  It’s not a head strike in the normal sense of “grounding out on the paper.”   All this fussing about to keep from having serious problems is time consuming, paper wasting, nonsense.  But it has become 2nd nature to me in using the printer (sadly).  I love what comes out of this printer.  It is spectacular.  And I love the sheet feed mechanism.  It is the best in the industry, IMO.  But this machine is far from something you can use casually w/o any notes to refer to, or “turning about three times, facing west, patting your head and stomach at the same time, and applying whatever incantation works best for you” in order to get exceptional results.  As a production printer, it would be a complete disaster, as many production shops have reported.

Rand
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Rand47

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2022, 12:58:27 pm »


. . .

Is the image quality when it’s working really any improvement over the P9000?

John

I’d say it is “incremental” not revolutionary in any sense at all.  On some images I can see a difference from my former printers, but not often.  Having both orange and violet inks is valuable “sometimes.”   For my purposes, if the P7000 had the sheet feed mechanism and separate PK/MK lines, the difference in color gamut would be inconsequential.  “More” is always better, but not when it comes with all the problems.

Rand
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deanwork

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2022, 02:06:16 pm »

Thanks. That was my impression from posts this year.





I’d say it is “incremental” not revolutionary in any sense at all.  On some images I can see a difference from my former printers, but not often.  Having both orange and violet inks is valuable “sometimes.”   For my purposes, if the P7000 had the sheet feed mechanism and separate PK/MK lines, the difference in color gamut would be inconsequential.  “More” is always better, but not when it comes with all the problems.

Rand
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jeffreybehr

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Re: A chance to look at the P7500 [7570]
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2022, 03:49:05 pm »

I'm a casual user of my P7570, and I LOVE it.  I received it in November '21 and have used nothing but Epson Premium Photo Paper Luster 260 on 24" roll.. Mine is 100% reliable, has never clogged, and make excellent prints.. I realize that my usage is easy on the printer, but I'd buy another instantly if someone stole mine out of my familyroom.

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