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Author Topic: B+W filter equivalent to Kodak 2E in 86mm for art conservation UV photography  (Read 1228 times)

CMAmuseumbrich4d

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Using the Phase One IQ4 150 with the Phase One 120mm Macro (86mm filter). I am shooting paintings under ultraviolet light for art conservation. We currently use a B+W UV-IR Cut #486 MRC Basic Filter (86mm) and an old, beat up Kodak Wratten 2E that we tape to the lens. I don't know the equivalent for the Kodak 2E in the B+W family. We are following AIC art conservation guidelines.
If there isn't a B+W filter equivalent, what filter brand do you suggest to match the Kodak Wratten 2E?
Thanks,
David
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TechTalk

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Tiffen has offered a 2E UV "Haze" in the past. I'm not certain that it is still available. I would try contacting them... techsupport@tiffen.com
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Ken Schuster

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"...old, beat up Kodak Wratten 2E..."

Kodak still makes the Wratten 2E that's "new and improved" for the motion picture industry. Of course anyone can buy them, even through Amazon.

https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/page/wratten-2-filters

https://www.amazon.com/Kodak-Square-Wratten-Optical-Filter/dp/B0037NZ6GU
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TechTalk

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Based on the original poster's inquiry asking if there is a "B+W filter equivalent" of the 2E UV, it suggested to me that a glass version of the filter might be what's desired. Tiffen has produced that Wratten designation in glass thread-in filter. I don't know if it's currently still in production, though B&H lists it in 77 mm size as "Temporarily Out of Stock".

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/Tiffen 77mm UV 2E Pale Yellow Filter

Tiffen has also offered this in rectangular format, which B&H lists as discontinued. Tiffen support would be a good place to start to find out if these are still available and if so where.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/Tiffen 4 x 5.65" UV 2E Pale Yellow Filter

These are made by laminating the filter substrate between glass which goes a long way toward preserving and protecting the filter from becoming old and beat up. I'm considering having myself laminated between glass to avoid becoming old and beat up. I'll let you know if it works.

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CMAmuseumbrich4d

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Thanks for the responses but I am looking for a screw-in glass filter. The filter size of 86mm is also problematic for finding this in glass.
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TechTalk

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To the best of my knowledge, the only manufacturer producing the filter that you're looking for in glass is Tiffen. This is why my first suggestion was to contact their tech support regarding availability. Good luck.
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CMAmuseumbrich4d

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I have contacted Tiffen and they do not make filters larger than 77mm. I am getting a price for a custom 86mm filter. Thanks for all the help!
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TechTalk

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It sounds like their tech support was helpful and willing to work with you in trying to get you what you need. Hope that it works out well for you.
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Balafre

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B+W don't make one?! I use this very lens and have a several filters by B+W in 86 mm inc POL & UV all sourced from B&H - try googling 'B+W DIGITAL MRC nano XS-PRO'. It's likely to be cheaper than custom making one filter but from experience public institutions are much more cavalier about spending money that their constituents worked hard to earn.
Incredibly, the POL filter (made by Schneider) was markedly wider than the diameter of the lens (made by Schneider) so the hood was impossible to attach! What lunacy! I needed an artisan expert at Panavision Auckland to pull it apart, remove the glass, minutely grind back the outer filter ring and upon re-assembly it then worked the way it always should have.
Schneider's QC must be retarded - why would a filter made by them designed (in part) for use on an expensive MF lens made by them not be compatible with the hood made by them ?!
It beggars belief.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2022, 07:47:43 pm by Balafre »
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TechTalk

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Your lack of understanding of design decisions or specific applications does not automatically equate to lunacy or lack of intellectual ability on the part of anyone. The same is true with regard to not understanding specialized filters for scientific or other special applications and the relatively straightforward method in which some can be custom manufactured. Jumping to conclusions based on insufficient information is a common human trait, but one which some degree of effort should be exerted to avoid.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 01:14:35 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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B+W don't make one?!

No. They don't. B+W, like most filter manufacturers, utilizes dyed-in-the-mass glass for filter production. This is the common method of production for widely used filters, but is not generally suitable for filters with limited specialized application.

Tiffen, however, utilizes a glass lamination process which makes production of specialized or customized filters considerably easier and less costly. It's why Tiffen has traditionally been a source for some specialized scientific, medical, or motion picture applications requiring filters. It's why Tiffen were the first to come to mind as I have had some limited involvement with these types of specialized imaging which has required custom filter production.

The filter being sought, in this case, is one of those specialized filters. A Wratten 2E has specific UV wavelength cutoff and spectral transmission characteristics.
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TechTalk

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It beggars belief.

No, it invites investigation to further understanding.
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Balafre

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Had a rough child-hood, did you?  :D

I acknowledge your points re 2E cutoff, and stand corrected.
It does however beggar belief in this instance that Schneider's filters when applied to Schneider's lenses do not allow the fitting of Schneider's dedicated lens's hood.
Why they screwed up is of no interest to me. It took a lot of effort and cost to remedy their error but should some martyr want to ride off and demand succour from these demons, he's welcome to do so.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 07:34:30 pm by Balafre »
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TechTalk

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I acknowledge your points re 2E cutoff, and stand corrected.
It does however beggar belief in this instance that Schneider's filters when applied to Schneider's lenses do not allow the fitting of Schneider's dedicated lens's hood.

Which "Schneider" filter and which "Schneider" lens with which lens hood? There is no reason to assume that just because three products have the same brand name on them that they are necessarily designed to all be used together at the same time or at all.

There is definitely no reason to assume that a polarizing filter is designed to work in combination with any lens hood unless the manufacturer has said that they are designed for that purpose.
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TechTalk

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Had a rough child-hood, did you?  :D

No, but thanks for asking... I guess.
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Balafre

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Which "Schneider" filter and which "Schneider" lens with which lens hood? There is no reason to assume that just because three products have the same brand name on them that they are necessarily designed to all be used together at the same time or at all.

There is definitely no reason to assume that a polarizing filter is designed to work in combination with any lens hood unless the manufacturer has said that they are designed for that purpose.

What utter piffle !
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TechTalk

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There are many types of thread-on rotating polarizing filter designs. There are also many different types of lens shades (or hoods).

Because polarizers are 2-piece laminated filters (two pieces of optical glass with a polarizing foil laminated in between), they are naturally thicker than ordinary filters. The necessity of a rotating mount also normally increases the filter mount thickness and width.

Due to their inherent increased thickness relative to ordinary filters, some polarizers are designed to be oversized in width to avoid vignetting when attached to shorter focal length lenses. This may eliminate the use of certain lens shade designs or the use of any lens shade at all.

As a means of reducing thickness, some polarizers are mounted in "slim" mounts without the usual double (female front) threads. A filter lacking double threads will eliminate the use of some lens hoods designed to attach via front threads.

So, due to a specific polarizer's thickness, a lens shade may be extended too far and vignette. Due to a specific polarizer's intentionally oversized width, a shade may not be attachable at all. Due to the lack of front threads in "slim" polarizers, some lens shades are not usable.

Also, due to the need to rotate a polarizer for the desired effect, many lens shades make it inconvenient to operate a polarizer. In many cases where a polarizer is used, it is more convenient and practical to simply flag the lens for flare control. There are some filter holder systems which are specifically designed to combine a polarizer with a lens shade or a flag may attach to the filter holder for shading. You may find that to be the exception rather than the rule, however.

It should not be assumed that any polarizer and lens shade combination will work together conveniently or at all. This needs to be checked and confirmed before purchasing. Failure to do so lies with the purchaser; all blame shifting and accusations of manufacturer error, stupidity, or insanity notwithstanding.

It should also be noted that with one exception, all of the Mamiya/Phase One lenses which are co-branded with Schneider are actually Mamiya/Phase One lens designs and are not designed or manufactured by Schneider. For the reasons already stated, there is no reason to assume that a polarizer of any brand is going to just fit or work with a given lens hood in the manner you would like or at all.
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TechTalk

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I use this very lens and have a several filters by B+W in 86 mm inc POL & UV all sourced from B&H - try googling 'B+W DIGITAL MRC nano XS-PRO'.

Incredibly, the POL filter (made by Schneider) was markedly wider than the diameter of the lens (made by Schneider) so the hood was impossible to attach! What lunacy! ... Schneider's QC must be retarded ... It beggars belief.

B&H.com - B+W 86mm XS-Pro Circular Polarizer MRC-Nano - Overview

"B+W filters are constructed from Schott glass for increased optical clarity and color fidelity. This filter features a thin brass filter ring to minimize the potential for vignetting while enhancing durability and jamming prevention. To further reduce the possibility of vignetting when this filter is in use, the filter ring's outside diameter is slightly larger than the actual thread size. This may prevent the use of some lens manufacturer bayonet hoods."
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Balafre

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B&H.com - B+W 86mm XS-Pro Circular Polarizer MRC-Nano - Overview

"B+W filters are constructed from Schott glass for increased optical clarity and color fidelity. This filter features a thin brass filter ring to minimize the potential for vignetting while enhancing durability and jamming prevention. To further reduce the possibility of vignetting when this filter is in use, the filter ring's outside diameter is slightly larger than the actual thread size. This may prevent the use of some lens manufacturer bayonet hoods."



Let's just think about this - Schneider make B+W filters.

Schneider failed badly here.
The rationale you posted reads more feasibly as a retro-written defensive piece attempting to mask over their failing. Had they increased their machining tolerances slightly, the problem would have been averted.
It is un-abiding commercial lunacy for them to produce an accessory inconsistent with another product they also make, when that the accessory is fundamentally intended to be used for that same product.
It also utterly beggars belief that they would produce an accessory for something they make that consequently diminishes rather than enhances the utility of the same system.
The construct of your argument might make sense to a laboratory dweller, but no sense in the commercial world I inhabit, that requires professional partners to be 100% reliable and predictable.

B&H, from whom I bought the filter, and Panavision, who had to fix it, concur with me.

This ends my comments on this. Please feel free to re-arrange the deck chairs into any pattern that pleases you.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 11:14:47 pm by Balafre »
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TechTalk

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Believe whatever pleases you. It's your melodramatic adventure.

I think the likelihood exists that someone could make the same uninformed purchasing mistake which you made. I think the chances of someone resorting to the same bizarre remedy is slim. [slimmer even than the mount of a slim design oversized wide-angle polarizer... which is what you purchased... for a longer than normal focal length lens] The normal and sensible reaction would be to ask for an exchange for a different item which suits your preference or need, in this case a polarizer in a standard mount. So, I won't continue beating this dead horse either.

I've now read multiple overdramatized narratives, authored by you, of the incompetence, ignorance, and insanity of the people employed by various manufacturers. They revolve around your ill-informed assumptions, leading to jumping to conclusions and misunderstandings, and your resultant frustrations. This behavior isn't limited to manufacturers as I've observed your assumptions and leaps of logic about other matters and people as well. I don't imagine that will end here.

Unfortunately, I suspect that means additional episodes of cursing the darkness, wailing at the incompetence you believe infects the world around you, instead of lighting a candle to illuminate a better understanding of it. I wish you good luck.
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