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Author Topic: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?  (Read 7312 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2022, 09:54:39 am »

Their mirrorless cameras are what returned Hasselblad to profitability.

So? 

You can only Hassy lenses on them, a severe limitation on creativity.  One of the pluses of mirrorless is the lack of shutters and a mirror box, allowing for virtually any lens to be used on them unless the manufacturer prevents it. 

I dont know if this is still true, but I was told the video files needed to be processed on Phocus, which is a clunker of a software.

I get the reasoning behind this, but for someone like me who was kind of interested in a medium format mirrorless, both of these were a turn off.  It may have helped them, but it could have been a much better hit. 
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Gigi

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2022, 12:02:18 pm »

Lets also not forget that market timing is very important, along with spending the time to perfect your product. 

Rollie went under because it released the Hy6 so earlier, which I still consider the top hand held MF camera.  It drained them of cash without a large enough customer base in the market yet to bring in the necessary cash flow.  This was more then likely reason for the very bad support network outside Europe, which turned a lot of professionals off.   

Agree with you totally. But Rollei's demise (IMHO) started earlier with their cutting edge work in digital scanning backs. These were expensive to produce, but quickly passed by in the wave of better technology. My sense is that is where the earlier profits were spent. The Hy6 also suffered when Phase pulled out, and left them with this cobbled (and confusing) arrangement between Leaf, Sinar and Rollei. Each wanted it a certain way for their market, and it was "morphed" a wee bit accordingly. The changes were manageable from Rollei's side, but diluted its market presence from a small but interesting product to ⅓ of that for each. No way to reach credibility. There was a moment when actually Helix here in Chicago had them for rent, they were that impressive at the time, but that quickly faded away. Also... the lack of a CMOS back option closed the door on them. Plus including in the design parameters 6x6 film, everything (including lens masses) gets too big to compete with mirrorless. Great system nonetheless (had them for 10 years) but a bit too big for now... 
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Geoff

TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2022, 03:49:19 pm »

So? 

The most recent year for which public financial information is available for both Hasselblad and Phase One is 2020. Phase One Group ApS (Phase One/Capture One) had a loss of €10.9 million on revenue of €68.9 million, despite the fact that Capture One actually had €5.5 million in profit on revenue of €22.6 million. They're losing money making and selling cameras.

Hasselblad had a profit in 2020 of €4.5 million on sales of €73.5 million due to the success of the mirrorless X system. So? Which would you rather have? Millions in profits or millions in losses?

You can only Hassy lenses on them, a severe limitation on creativity.

That's incorrect. You can use a variety of lenses with Hasselblad mirrorless X1D/X1D II and 907X/CFV II 50C cameras using the sensor's electronic shutter. Many users do so regularly. You can find a lot of different examples of other lenses being used this way in this thread at another site.

Yes, using the sensor's electronic shutter has some inherent limitations. How limiting use of the electronic shutter might be depends entirely on your application.

Additionally, with the 907X/CFV II 50C, the back can be removed and attached to a technical or view camera and synched with any leaf shutter lens or any Hasselblad V-system camera from 1957 or later. Of course, the 907X accepts all of the same XCD lenses as the X1D/X1D II as well.

One of the pluses of mirrorless is the lack of shutters and a mirror box, allowing for virtually any lens to be used on them unless the manufacturer prevents it. 
No, that's one of the benefits of a focal plane shutter. Still cameras with a "lack of shutters and a mirror box" are few and far between. Most have a focal plane shutter.

Hasselblad chose to stay with a leaf shutter only. That's been true of most of their cameras for decades. It's a choice that has both benefits and disadvantages, just like every design choice does. It's not for everyone or every purpose, but what is?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 12:15:44 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2022, 05:00:03 pm »

I dont know if this is still true, but I was told the video files needed to be processed on Phocus, which is a clunker of a software.

You were misinformed. The only Hasselblad video files that need to go thru Phocus are the full sensor width 4K raw video files from the H6D-100c or H6D-400c or 2.7K raw video files from the H6D-50c. Hasselblad raw video files are not edited in Phocus, it simply converts the raw video into CinemaDNG or Apple ProRes files which can be edited in your video editing program of choice. Again, that only applies to raw video.

You don't have to shoot raw video in the H6D cameras. You can shoot standard H.264 (MPEG-4 AVC) video which doesn't require any conversion to be edited. If you do choose to shoot Hasselblad raw video, however, you can get some impressive results like this lovely short wedding documentary. It was shot by Matthew Carmody for his friends. Nice to have a professional cinematographer as a friend when you're getting married. The possibilities of raw video from such a large sensor prompted Alpa to design a full cinema system around Hasselblad backs in 2018 and update the design in 2019.

The Hasselblad mirrorless cameras don't shoot raw video. They shoot standard H.264 video. I don't find Phocus to be "a clunker of a software", but people tend to prefer software with which they are already knowledgeable and familiar. So, many simply use Lightroom for stills. As I mentioned, Phocus isn't video editing software. So, people use whatever they like for video editing.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 01:58:07 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2022, 05:13:21 pm »

I get the reasoning behind this, but for someone like me who was kind of interested in a medium format mirrorless, both of these were a turn off.  It may have helped them, but it could have been a much better hit.

Well, it appears that perhaps Hasselblad didn't design their mirrorless cameras for someone like you. Perhaps you would like the Fuji mirrorless system. One thing is certain, DSLR cameras continue to shrink in demand rapidly as mirrorless continues to grow and increase market share.

A professional photographer for whom the X1D (the original model) has been a welcome tool is Justin Mott. He has shot dozens of his commercial hotel and resort assignments with the X1D. Here's his review of the system after using it professionally for two years.
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2022, 06:37:57 pm »

Agree with you totally. But Rollei's demise (IMHO) started earlier with their cutting edge work in digital scanning backs...

Unfortunately, Rollei's demise began 60 years ago. They designed and produced some great products, but suffered from bad management decisions across multiple decades which resulted in multiple bankruptcies and rebirths.
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Gigi

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2022, 07:32:08 am »

Unfortunately, Rollei's demise began 60 years ago. They designed and produced some great products, but suffered from bad management decisions across multiple decades which resulted in multiple bankruptcies and rebirths.

Well, as we venture OT, I'm not sure about this. In the 1980s-90s, they were part of the Mandelmann's holdings, he also owned Schneider. And they made a series of lenses through the 1990s that were really the best MF lenses of the time - a big improvement over the Zeiss lenses that were used on Rollei and Hassy both. If you look in detail at the lens lineup - it was really special, and a great body of work. These were for the 6003/8 series of cameras, and still used on the Hy6 today. And while they have been superseded in the past decade by new lens designs and manufacturing (such as the Leica SL, or their Apo lenses), they are still impressive. The small 40, the great Curtagon 60, the 90 macro, the 150 and 300... all wonderful. So while the company hit a wall a few years later, this was understandable in light of massive changes since say 2000, they still did some very good work in the 1990s. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 09:03:22 am by Gigi »
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Geoff

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2022, 08:30:00 am »

...

The mirrorless cameras don't shoot raw video. They shoot standard H.264 video. ...

even some Apple mobile phones shoots ProRes and the nikon Z9 for one shoots RAW and ProRes...
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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2022, 10:09:53 am »

I was replying to Joe regarding Hasselblad's latest cameras. So, it was the X1D/X1D II and 907X that I was referring to which don't shoot raw video. Sorry that wasn't clear.
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2022, 12:41:44 pm »

Well, as we venture OT, I'm not sure about this. In the 1980s-90s, they were part of the Mandelmann's holdings, he also owned Schneider. And they made a series of lenses through the 1990s that were really the best MF lenses of the time - a big improvement over the Zeiss lenses that were used on Rollei and Hassy both. If you look in detail at the lens lineup - it was really special, and a great body of work. These were for the 6003/8 series of cameras, and still used on the Hy6 today. And while they have been superseded in the past decade by new lens designs and manufacturing (such as the Leica SL, or their Apo lenses), they are still impressive. The small 40, the great Curtagon 60, the 90 macro, the 150 and 300... all wonderful. So while the company hit a wall a few years later, this was understandable in light of massive changes since say 2000, they still did some very good work in the 1990s.
No disagreement that Rollei made great products. Their recurrent financial problems, over multiple decades, were the result of poor financial management or market forecasting by the senior management of its various owners. One interesting note regarding Heinrich Mandermann is that he purchased Rollei in 1987 for a symbolic 1 DM (Deutsch Mark) plus taking on 14 million DM of their debt. Rollei engineering, however, was always top notch.

One Rollei item that I used and appreciated was the Rollei electronic shutter and Lens Control S for view camera lenses. I've been using multi-shot digital backs for many years which require electronic shutters. When I transitioned from a fully integrated Sinar system to using Imacon/Hasselblad multi-shot backs, I remounted the Sinar lenses into Rollei shutters. The Imacon and Hasselblad software communicated with the Rollei control unit to allow full control and triggering from the tethered software. The Rollei shutter system integrated seamlessly and offered a wider range of shutter speeds than Sinar/Rodenstock or Schneider electronic shutters. It was an excellent and reliable solution.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2022, 01:31:27 pm »

Notably there is a reference to the 2020 financial results of Phase One earlier in this thread.

2020 was indeed a bad year for Phase One (and most of the world).

In 2021 Phase One increased revenue and was profitable (as you can see at proff.dk).

Also, this thread was about there being no firmware/feature updates for the IQ4 in over a year. Now they have; shortly after the thread was started Phase One issued a significant feature update that improves wireless control and image review.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 01:45:06 pm by Doug Peterson »
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2022, 05:48:37 pm »

I really did not intend on giving any more attention to financial information. Yes, Phase One A/S, the group subsidiary in Denmark, shows a profit for 2021. The parent company Phase One Group ApS (Phase One A/S + Capture One A/S + their international subsidiaries) has been losing millions every year since the summer of 2019 when private equity firm Axcel acquired majority control.

Since Phase One and Capture One were split at the beginning of 2020 into two separate corporate entities under the combined control of parent company Phase One Group ApS, it's clear from the annual reports that Capture One (and its new subsidiary in Greece) makes a nice profit for Phase One Group ApS. It's also clear that the group has been losing money.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 07:49:20 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2022, 07:40:51 pm »

This information is just to give some financial background on the relatively small size and other potential constraints which may affect the speed at which updates or new products are possible for Phase One and many other small manufacturers. The small companies that create the devices we enjoy using, like Phase One, do a phenomenal job. We've never had such amazing tools for creating images and they keep getting better and more diverse despite the financial, technological, and volatile market hurdles that manufacturers have continually faced.
 
There are multiple layers of ownership interests thru various Axcel private equity holding companies for Phase One and Capture One. They start with Phase One Group ApS which is the corporate parent encompassing both Phase One and Capture One and all of their international subsidiaries.

Phase One Group ApS consists of the following subsidiaries over which they have 100% ownership and control:

• Capture One A/S (Denmark)
• Capture One Hellas Ltd. (Greece)
• Leaf Imaging Ltd. (Israel)
• Phase One A/S (Denmark)
• Phase One Japan Co. Ltd. (Japan)
• Phase One Asia Pacific Co. Ltd. (Hong Kong)
• Phase One United States Inc. (USA)

The losses for Phase One Group ApS in current (August 10, 2022) Danish Krone to Euro exchange rate have been:

• 2019 (from new Group establishment and only for the period of July 12 to December 31, 2019) - €12.9 million (loss) on sales of €35 million
• 2019 (January 1 - December 31, 2019) - €14.5 million (loss) on sales of €72 million
• 2020 (January 1 - December 31, 2020) - €10.9 million (loss) on sales of €68.9 million
• 2021 (January 1 - December 31, 2020) - €7 million (loss) on sales of €76.7 million
• As of the end of 2021, the group has €74.4 million in long term debt (of which €72.4 million is bank debt)

Sources for all of the above information are Phase One Group ApS Annual Reports from 2019 thru 2021.

As Axcel has restructured the company into two separate corporations: Phase One and Capture One, it has also been restructuring their accounting which makes pinpointing the source or sources of the combined group losses impossible. There is only public financial information available, as legally required, for the Danish parent company Phase One Group ApS and its Danish subsidiaries of Capture One A/S and Phase One A/S. Separate financial reports for the other group international subsidiaries are not available publicly.

Phase One Group ApS combined annual reports show losses occurring from somewhere within the group. Based solely on the history of medium format camera manufacturers and the continuing decline in DSLR sales more broadly, logic suggests and my guess would be that maintaining the Mamiya/Phase One factory and work force in Japan is the biggest anchor holding down financial results. But, that is only speculation on my part which can't be confirmed nor relied upon; as only Axcel, their partners, and Phase One have enough financial data to know for certain.

The same language for outlook can be found in Phase One annual reports from 2018 thru 2021: "The demand for best-in-class imaging workflow software and commercial drones/robotics are expected to drive the revenue growth going forward." Annual reports, from recent years, also make clear that it is "primarily in the Geospatial market segments" where they see "significant growth opportunities", along with Capture One expansion "based on new products, new distribution systems and new OEM partnerships". Much of the industrial and aerial technology appears to come from Leaf in Israel, so I suspect that Leaf is contributing to positive growth and profits.

Phase One financial data is available thru this link in Danish. It is available thru this link in English via Google Translate. Annual reports can also be downloaded without cost from this site.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2022, 02:41:26 pm »

Perhaps but Phaseone in Japan is also producing the P1 Schneider lenses so it’s hard to know how the balance adds up.

One thing is sure, for someone who is not interested in highlighting the financial situation of P1 you are spending an incredible amount of time doing it. :)

Coming from an H6D-100c another thing I know is that the IQ4-150 on the XF is a far superior pro tool.

I also know that among small MF Fuji is moving much faster than Hassy with a solution that is clearly superior overall even if the lenses lack a leaf shutter and and a little bit better.

So it takes a very biased eye to paint Hassy into a positive light.

The reality is that they have been mostly acting as a brand sticker for DJI drones. I hope that exciting things are coming but the lost years will remain lost for their customers hoping to see additional value added to the systems in which they invested.

During the years that passed since Hassy did something significant to the X system Nikon has developed from scratch what I find to be the most appealing mirrorless system on the market. It takes customers with extremely limited needs and expectations to objectively consider the H or X system as the best possible way to use cash for photographic applications.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 03:04:14 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2022, 04:37:02 pm »

Perhaps but Phaseone in Japan is also producing the P1 Schneider lenses so it’s hard to know how the balance adds up.

It isn't hard to see that demand for DSLR cameras is shrinking rapidly in favor of mirrorless models. It's also easy to look at the history of medium format SLR cameras and see that they are too expensive to manufacture profitably at their steadily declining low volume of demand over the past two decades and that the loss incurred in producing them has to be offset somewhere else with something that is profitable to sell.

One thing is sure, for someone who is not interested in highlighting the financial situation of P1 you are spending an incredible amount of time doing it. :)

Who said that I was "not interested in highlighting the financial situation of P1"? If I wasn't interested, I wouldn't do it and it takes little time to download an annual report and report what it says. Out of curiosity, I've followed the financials and corporate structural changes of a handful of manufacturers for some time.

It serves as an illustration of what many other small manufacturers, like Hasselblad and Schneider for instance, have faced or are facing in the roller coaster world of manufacturing digital imaging devices. The large players are also not immune to similar financial pressures or changes in consumer demand.
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2022, 04:53:18 pm »

Coming from an H6D-100c another thing I know is that the IQ4-150 on the XF is a far superior pro tool.

I also know that among small MF Fuji is moving much faster than Hassy with a solution that is clearly superior overall even if the lenses lack a leaf shutter and and a little bit better.

Different cameras, with differing feature sets and design philosophies, satisfy the needs and desires of different users. I'm happy with that fact as it provides for genuinely different options. The superior tool is the one that each individual finds satisfying for their use.

I find the minimalistic design of the Leica M10-D — which lacks autofocus and built-in live view and doesn't even have an LCD display on the camera — very appealing for its relative lack of distractions, menus, joysticks, dials and buttons compared to most modern cameras. Others would hate it for the very same reasons that I find it appealing. Thankfully, there are options available for everyone.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 07:31:54 pm by TechTalk »
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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2022, 04:57:48 pm »

So it takes a very biased eye to paint Hassy into a positive light.

If you say so. Some seem to enjoy using their cameras, but no one is forced to do so.

The reality is that they have been mostly acting as a brand sticker for DJI drones. I hope that exciting things are coming but the lost years will remain lost for their customers hoping to see additional value added to the systems in which they invested.

During the years that passed since Hassy did something significant to the X system Nikon has developed from scratch what I find to be the most appealing mirrorless system on the market. It takes customers with extremely limited needs and expectations to objectively consider the H or X system as the best possible way to use cash for photographic applications.

Bias is in the eye of the beholder like beauty is I suppose.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2022, 06:19:28 pm »



During the years that passed since Hassy did something significant to the X system Nikon has developed from scratch what I find to be the most appealing mirrorless system on the market. It takes customers with extremely limited needs and expectations to objectively consider the H or X system as the best possible way to use cash for photographic applications.

Cheers,
Bernard


It is common for interim periods to occur in a manufacturer's product line that sometimes lead one to believe that the end is near, or at least that they are hopelessly behind, and that doom must not be far off. I recall the same being said for Nikon at one time. Remember when Kodak and Canon had full frame 35mm sensors and Nikon took years to come out with one? My point is these events are naturally cyclable for many if not most manufacturers. Sometimes, it is just a matter of time. Hasselblad announced a ground breaking 50mp mirrorless camera in approximately the same time period as Fuji (same calendar year, more or less). Fuji has been more aggressive in continuing to evolve the product line since.

But in some respects, and perhaps surprisingly, capable digital camera manufacturers rarely fall critically behind competitors to the point they can't catch up. Nikon is a good example of this. And who knows, this year Hasselblad could announce a 100mp X2D with PDAF, IBIS, and perhaps a higher resolution EVF than the Fuji GFX 100s, because they have taken their time producing their next generation product, and within that time period, technology evolved so that their options for higher resolution EVF's are better than what Fuji had available to them a few years back.

"It takes customers with extremely limited needs and expectations to objectively consider the H or X system as the best possible way to use cash for photographic applications."

Regarding the above statement from you, I would say that you underestimate the variety of preferences for the worldwide photographic marketplace.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2022, 07:38:41 pm »

"It takes customers with extremely limited needs and expectations to objectively consider the H or X system as the best possible way to use cash for photographic applications."

Regarding the above statement from you, I would say that you underestimate the variety of preferences for the worldwide photographic marketplace.

Steve Hendrix/CI

There may be many photographers with very limited needs but it seems factual that compared to a Nikon Z9 or Sony a1 the scope of scenarios adressable by an X1DII is extremely narrow.

And yes Hassy may release a 100mp X2D this year, but they’ll still be 3 years behind Fuji and assuming that those interested customers would need this resolution it will have been 3 years during which Hassy will not have been able to address their need.

Which why I see the X system as a bad investment for photographers having various needs, which means it’s only suitable for photographers with narrow needs.

It doesn’t mean the X1DII doesn’t handle well the narrow scope it covers nor that it cannot produce beautiful images within this scope.

It’s just a niche tool like a Leica M.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 07:45:05 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Re: Phase One IQ4 - no updates for over a year?
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2022, 09:31:09 pm »

There may be many photographers with virtually unlimited need for more and more sophisticated features and faster-higher-better specs to feel comfortable making images. That's fine and they should use what they enjoy and satisfies their needs.

I'm just not that concerned with having more features or the latest specs for the vast majority of photographic "scenarios". I really don't require very much from the camera other than a way to focus and adjust exposure. I'm happy to adjust those myself without help from the camera. But, that's just me.

On the other hand, for narrow specialized or technical applications, I might indeed want something which has some newer and more sophisticated features or better specs. But again, that's just my perspective and doesn't apply to anyone else.

Like many photographers, I learned to make images with pretty basic equipment under a wide range of scenarios and still can — and may even prefer it sometimes. A lot of the images that I most admire were shot with equipment which had really underwhelming specs and features by today's standards, but the images don't stink because they were made without any of the features considered essential to capture images by some photographers today — and who knows, maybe it actually helped to occasionally make for more interesting images... and sometimes, better photographers.
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