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Author Topic: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue  (Read 511 times)

mfrohman

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Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« on: April 23, 2022, 01:05:07 am »

Hi all,

I've recently added a Canon pro 4100 44" to my studio, about 6 months ago. I'm starting to see some pizza wheel type marks down my dark prints, which up until now have been flawless. These images have heavy areas of very dark or flat black solid color. Im printing on epson somerset velvet which is very matte. They look like a straight row of tiny dots running vertically across the prints in multiple areas. They seem like an abrasion as they have a shiny appearance and can often only be seen from a certain angle.

Coming from HP, I'm not that familiar with all the settings in the Canon media configuration and driver and have been trying to tweak them to see if they help the issue, with not much luck so far. I have the head height set high. I've also tried to add a pause of up to 5 seconds between passes to allow it more time to dry before advancing  at first I thought this helped but I'm still seeing the marks. I see there are also adjustments for roll tension but not really sure if those would be relevant.

Since these have only started recently, after months of pretty heavy use, I'm wondering if maybe there is some cleaning of the pathway that is necessary.
Most of the pizza wheel discussion I've seen have been about Epsons so I haven't been able to find many suggestions.

Any suggestions would be helpful! thanks!
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Conner999

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2022, 09:18:51 am »

Saw had similar issue with our long gone 3800.

Some papers will swell unevenly under heavy ink load, develop a waveform like shape (when viewed edge-on from feed exit) and the peaks of those waveforms will contact PW, or after I removed the pizza wheels, contact plastic bits on the roof of the feed area.

Shots with heavy black areas were the worst. None of the home remedies ever worked.

That said, the 3800 didn't have vacuum hold-down.

Also, those marks don't look like typical PW boo-boos.  PW marks tend to be very small pinpoint marks of uniform size, of uniform spacing in a very, very straight line.

These look like possibly intermittent contact with some plastic on the roof of feed area after inking either removing ink, or something knocking-off paper particles that were already inked and laying on the paper surface.   

If using the same paper since Day 1, room humidity not suddenly doing anything funky, and printer otherwise working fine and now suddenly an issue, it might be 'paper dust', etc., buildup and a good cleaning in the feed area - rollers, vacuum ports etc would clear it up. That or maybe an off-spec roll of paper? If the 4100 has brushes in intake path to pre-dust paper before inking, maybe check them?

I look fwd to the day when we no longer have printing tech based on spraying droplets of ink across a narrow gap onto paper transported across sharp plastic by other bits of spinning plastic.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2022, 09:36:09 am by Conner999 »
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mfrohman

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2022, 08:00:09 pm »

Thanks for the ideas Conner. It does make me think of CDs where the thing most likely to damage the CD was the CD case itself!

I did have humidity issues with my z3200 causing head strikes but have since relocated to a much more humid coastal area and have not seen any of the humidity issues on the Canon since I've had it. I also almost always use the same paper, which is a dusty paper, so I suspect it could be a dust build-up issue as you mentioned. I will get in there with my vacuum and see if it helps the issue. It's not flaking the ink off but more leaving those little microabrasions which cause the matte black to have a shine where the tiny dots are.
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Ryan Mack

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2022, 11:22:51 am »

I don't think the 4100 has pizza wheels. The rollers are a bit different and I've never seen them damage anything. I have a 3880 next to my 4000 and they are worlds apart in terms of paper handling.

Two thoughts... you can adjust the vacuum strength in your custom paper settings which can help hold the paper flush better. Also, the problem may be that while the paper is loading or once the paper is printed and it's going into the output bin that the paper is rolling up and scratching itself. Once I got closer to the core of my paper roll I was seeing this sort of damage. I put a table in front of the printer so that the paper ejects out and stays flat.
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mfrohman

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2022, 12:27:00 pm »

Thanks Ryan, I thought I had the vacuum set to the highest setting but apparently I did not. I think the issue may be solved after I set it to high. Further testing is needed but so far so good!
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mfrohman

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2022, 05:12:37 pm »

Following up on this persistent issue after much troubleshooting and two calls to Canon.

I've had a pro-4100 for 9 months and a few weeks ago I started to notice lines that run vertically along my prints, from the front edge back about 4" towards the printer (so perpendicular to the printheads). After running multiple tests, I've determined it's the plastic ends that are attached to the rollers that are causing the abrasions (the lines line up perfectly with them). They are only noticeable on dark colored prints or prints that have large fields of solid color and the light needs to hit them just right. Those plastic ends are digging into the surface of the paper BEFORE the printheads lay down ink. Once the ink is printed over the paper, it leaves a shiny line of dots where the abrasions are. Im using matte paper (epson somerset velvet and have also tried red river aurora fine art natural). The abrasions seem to happen when the paper advances and retracts just before printing (as part of whatever adjustments it makes between prints).

I'm attaching images illustrating the issue.

So far I've called Canon twice and this is what I've tried:

Both canned and custom profiles.

Tried all the 3 paper feed tension settings, from weak, standard, to strong on all 3 options.

Set head height to highest and vacuum strength to strongest.

Tried 2 different brands of paper and lines showed on both.

Basically, I've adjusted nearly everyone of the advanced custom profile settings that seemed remotely relevant.

I've also raised the cover up while printing to rule out the paper scraping something on the cover. Also, the paper does not make contact with the basket. It is almost certainly the plastic part that the rollers are attached to.

I will have another call with Canon tomorrow but this issue has me at a standstill and any suggestions are appreciated!


Thanks!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 05:17:23 pm by mfrohman »
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mfrohman

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2022, 05:20:19 pm »

just adding a few more photos here
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Chris_Brown

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2022, 05:36:37 pm »

Following up on this persistent issue after much troubleshooting and two calls to Canon.

I've had a pro-4100 for 9 months and a few weeks ago I started to notice lines that run vertically along my prints, from the front edge back about 4" towards the printer (so perpendicular to the printheads). After running multiple tests, I've determined it's the plastic ends that are attached to the rollers that are causing the abrasions (the lines line up perfectly with them). They are only noticeable on dark colored prints or prints that have large fields of solid color and the light needs to hit them just right. Those plastic ends are digging into the surface of the paper BEFORE the printheads lay down ink. Once the ink is printed over the paper, it leaves a shiny line of dots where the abrasions are. Im using matte paper (epson somerset velvet and have also tried red river aurora fine art natural). The abrasions seem to happen when the paper advances and retracts just before printing (as part of whatever adjustments it makes between prints).

I'm attaching images illustrating the issue.

So far I've called Canon twice and this is what I've tried:

Both canned and custom profiles.

Tried all the 3 paper feed tension settings, from weak, standard, to strong on all 3 options.

Set head height to highest and vacuum strength to strongest.

Tried 2 different brands of paper and lines showed on both.

Basically, I've adjusted nearly everyone of the advanced custom profile settings that seemed remotely relevant.

I've also raised the cover up while printing to rule out the paper scraping something on the cover. Also, the paper does not make contact with the basket. It is almost certainly the plastic part that the rollers are attached to.

I will have another call with Canon tomorrow but this issue has me at a standstill and any suggestions are appreciated!


Thanks!
Sorry to read of your problem. I know it's frustrating.

Does the abrasion occur just at the first few inches of the print, or are there markings the entire length of the print?
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mfrohman

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2022, 09:34:31 pm »

They are just on about the first 4 inches of the print. When I opened the cover (propped it open with some cardboard), I could see it advance the paper about 4 inches and then pull it back in before printing. This must be when the abrasion occurs since head printing occurs AFTER the rollers.

I've been running some tests and I think I may have found a solution, have to do some more tests but so far so good.

Counterintuitive to me, I switched the vacuum to Weak, the lowest setting and haven't seen the lines since. Ill report back if it seems like the fix after a few more prints. I don't really understand it but happy to finally make some progress!
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deanwork

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2022, 11:21:30 pm »

You could have some kind of dirt debris or paper dust from the trimming of these cotton media lodged under the head or carriage area somewhere. I would clean all the rollers thoroughly and buy some compressed air and blast all back in there. Also clean the pad on the far right side that wipes against the bottom of the head. I had that occur a few times over 8 years with the 8300 and that solved it.




They are just on about the first 4 inches of the print. When I opened the cover (propped it open with some cardboard), I could see it advance the paper about 4 inches and then pull it back in before printing. This must be when the abrasion occurs since head printing occurs AFTER the rollers.

I've been running some tests and I think I may have found a solution, have to do some more tests but so far so good.

Counterintuitive to me, I switched the vacuum to Weak, the lowest setting and haven't seen the lines since. Ill report back if it seems like the fix after a few more prints. I don't really understand it but happy to finally make some progress!
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mfrohman

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Re: Canon 4100 pizza wheel marks issue
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2022, 01:22:01 am »

Thanks Dean. Yeah, I was wondering if there was some kind of dust buildup since it only started recently and the paper is quite dusty. I will try to do some more cleaning in there.

I had a run of perfect prints and then the lines started returning so will call Canon again and see if they have any new ideas as well.

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