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Author Topic: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question  (Read 2492 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2022, 07:04:52 pm »

Do you suggest always working with lower contrast (not just when printing the image)? 
I don't really see any reason to do so, the idea is to better match the DR of the display to the printing which varies (sometimes a lot).
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MHMG

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2022, 09:33:39 pm »

That part of the GUI doesn't undergo white simulation, so your eye adapts to that white, not the white in the image. It is why the "make my image look like crap" button makes your image look like crap just after you click on it  ;D (if you view it). See my suggestion about not doing so.
Now you don't have to work in full screen mode to view just the image.

Except that it's easy in PS to set the canvas color PS uses to surround the image when you zoom out such that it matches the paper color LAB value or perhaps be slightly darker gray, at which point the human visual system will not get fooled by any small bits of monitor white in various menu headers or tool bars. Those small monitor white areas in your field of view will look somewhat "brighter than paper white" not unlike specular highlights in a real world scene, but the soft proof's paper white appearance will still appear to be paper white.  In fact, the human visual system's adaptation for whitepoint is dominated hugely by one's peripheral field of vision which typically takes in much more than just your monitor unless you like to sit really close to your monitor! If that weren't the case, humans would constantly be sensing continual color balance shifts as they focus directly on different colored objects in the scene. This adaptation via peripheral vision is also why many folks prefer a D65 calibrated monitor over a D50 monitor calibration. The D50 setting often looks inherently too yellow because they are adapting to the color temperature of the daylight hitting neutral surfaces in the room as registered by their peripheral vision rather than the monitor whitepoint color as seen in their central field of vision. Light the walls with 5000K and the D50 monitor loses it's yellow color cast!

With regard to Karl Lang's article about the Sony Artisan, his examples were all about the benefits of matching monitor black point to a paper media black point without any further softproofing methodology. Perhaps I missed something, but the cited article did not consider how the contrast reduction acts in conjunction with "simulate color paper" or "simulate ink black softproofing features" in PS. 

I do see how monitor contrast reduction can be a viable approach for folks who don't want to go all the way with a rigorous screen to print matching approach facilitated by softproofing and simulate paper color or black ink modes.  I also see how one can use a contrast corrected monitor in conjunction with a soft proof mode when it stops short of invoking these simulate paper color or black ink options. However, invoking both features simultaneously (i.e., the reduced monitor contrast along with either the simulate paper color or black ink feature) are going to combine together to produce an even lighter black value rendered to the monitor. That's a given based on how display profiles are implemented today. Thus, it doesn't make sense to me that one can routinely achieve better screen to print matching by combining both methods as opposed to creating an accurate printer profile for your chosen ink and media and letting the soft proof with simulate color paper mode correct both whitepoint and blackpoint appearance on screen.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
 
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digitaldog

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2022, 10:01:54 pm »

Except that it's easy in PS to set the canvas color PS uses to surround the image when you zoom out such that it matches the paper color LAB value or perhaps be slightly darker gray, at which point the human visual system will not get fooled by any small bits of monitor white in various menu headers or tool bars.
Nope, that's not enough. You can got to go into full screen mode, hit the tab key to remove ALL panels and dialogs and menu items and end up with just the image alone, no tools or anything else (which again, doesn't undergo the simulation) to remove all the incorrect white of the display. Doable. But now you can't edit the image: open up say Curves because you want to apply them: Boom, incorrect white is back.
Full-screen mode, no GUI whatsoever doable and fine if all you want to do is view the image soft proof while you compare the print in viewing booth. Forget any kind of editing, however.
Adjust the contrast ratio of the display calibration, Boom! Everything displayed is now where you want white. And Black!
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With regard to Karl Lang's article about the Sony Artisan, his examples were all about the benefits of matching monitor black point to a paper media black point without any further softproofing methodology.
It isn't Karl's article although it is his design (way back when) to control contrast ratio and the results of the control over black. And White. As illustrated in the article images. In no way is this and soft proofing mutually exclusive by design.
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I do see how monitor contrast reduction can be a viable approach for folks who don't want to go all the way with a rigorous screen to print matching approach facilitated by softproofing and simulate paper color or black ink modes.

Actually the opposite. It is why Karl's Artisan and i1P and NEC and Eizo, among others provide such controls. While so many others do not sadly.
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Thus, it doesn't make sense to me that one can routinely achieve better screen to print matching by combining both methods as opposed to creating an accurate printer profile for your chosen ink and media and letting the soft proof with simulate color paper mode correct both whitepoint and blackpoint appearance on screen.
The contrast ratio can be 'controlled' by the profile, the display or a bit of both but one takes care of anything displayed and the other doesn't. All that matters is it is controlled to provide a match and it does. But when you do it with the display, you control the white of everything on that display. And the "make my image look like crap" issue goes away. And you can easily edit the image, with all the tools, without having to worry that the white of those tools affects the preview (soft proof).
It works. It's been done for a very long time. At least since the early 2000s when Karl designed the Artisan. For Black and White. For the entire ratio of the display. Other's followed Karl as I indicated. For good reasons.
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MHMG

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2022, 12:15:43 am »

Nope, that's not enough. You can got to go into full screen mode, hit the tab key to remove ALL panels and dialogs and menu items and end up with just the image alone, no tools or anything else (which again, doesn't undergo the simulation) to remove all the incorrect white of the display. Doable. But now you can't edit the image: open up say Curves because you want to apply them: Boom, incorrect white is back.
Full-screen mode, no GUI whatsoever doable and fine if all you want to do is view the image soft proof while you compare the print in viewing booth. Forget any kind of editing, however.
Adjust the contrast ratio of the display calibration, Boom! Everything displayed is now where you want white. And Black! It isn't Karl's article although it is his design (way back when) to control contrast ratio and the results of the control over black. And White. As illustrated in the article images. In no way is this and soft proofing mutually exclusive by design. 
Actually the opposite. It is why Karl's Artisan and i1P and NEC and Eizo, among others provide such controls. While so many others do not sadly. The contrast ratio can be 'controlled' by the profile, the display or a bit of both but one takes care of anything displayed and the other doesn't. All that matters is it is controlled to provide a match and it does. But when you do it with the display, you control the white of everything on that display. And the "make my image look like crap" issue goes away. And you can easily edit the image, with all the tools, without having to worry that the white of those tools affects the preview (soft proof).
It works. It's been done for a very long time. At least since the early 2000s when Karl designed the Artisan. For Black and White. For the entire ratio of the display. Other's followed Karl as I indicated. For good reasons.

Thanks for that.

Or could it be that the procedural steps you use, and the steps I use achieve similar visual accuracy by virtue of the fact that the true wildcard in screen to print matching not accounted for by CIE color science is the human perceptual phenomenon called lateral adaptation? I pay particular attention to this effect when I'm making image edits in my softproofing workflow. Wasn't mentioned in your tutorial, and it's not accounted for by monitor contrast range adjustments or by ICC profile LUTS or the CMM. Must be accounted for by the printmaker's full understanding of the phenomenon.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imging.com
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 08:16:13 am by MHMG »
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digitaldog

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2022, 09:27:11 am »

Thanks for that.
Any time.  ;)

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Or could it be that the procedural steps you use, and the steps I use achieve similar visual accuracy by virtue of the fact that the true wildcard in screen to print matching not accounted for by CIE color science is the human perceptual phenomenon called lateral adaptation?
Try the procedural steps I outline, let us know.
"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it". -Joseph Joube
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MHMG

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2022, 10:53:58 am »

Any time.  ;)
Try the procedural steps I outline, let us know.
"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it". -Joseph Joube

I did so yesterday, and confirmed that, in my opinion, matching the contrast ratio of the monitor to the media white/media black contrast range does not lead in my viewing environment(s) to fundamentally better softproofing (better being defined by me as a soft proofing experience that enables superior image edits for print in less time and material losses and which result in superior image quality in a typical real world range of viewing environments.

Moreover, constantly resetting monitor contrast to match print output is impractical for printmakers like myself who frequently change media, inks, and even use different printer models on a regular basis. Additionally, the impact of double compensating for paper black, first by adjusting the monitor to the paper contrast, then by invoking the simulate paper color function in PS which, wait for it, also dramatically compensates the image contrast albeit not the non color managed element of real estate on the monitor. And this double compensation error gets worse and worse for media choices as their L* minimum printed black point goes up, e.g., for fine art matte papers and canvas media where L*min > 15 is very common, i.e., typically < 50:1 contrast range; negating for me, any realizable advantage gained by lowering the visual contrast of non color managed real estate on the monitor. As noted in an earlier post in this thread, I find I can mitigate the influence of the non color managed real estate in view by setting menu color/tones responsibly, and no,I don't feel a need to resort to full screen image deployment in PS to achieve an excellent soft proofing experience, but that is indeed a personal "how one's brain ignores imperfections or not" kind of issue ;D

And as I've noted earlier in our debate/discussion I do agree that professional display calibration software should indeed allow the enduser to specify the monitor white point and monitor black point over a generous contrast range e.g., as low as 50:1 to the "native"highest response of the monitor (which nowadays can easily be 700:1 or greater). If, for example, a photo lab or print studio owns multiple monitors that aren't all factory/dealer matched and may indeed be made by different manufacturers, then wise color management practice would be to calibrate all the monitors to a commonly achievable contrast ratio. I can also see where some printmakers will prefer Digitaldog's recommendations and perhaps even tune their setup to soft proof with reasonable expectations without even turning the "simulate paper color" feature on. But from a color science perspective compensating for print contrast range by using both monitor contrast reduction and then applying a simulate paper color algorithm on top of that is not technically defensible. It's kind of like double profiling. Not really sure why it works for you Digitaldog, but if that's your experience, I'm not inclined to believe I can get you to change your mind. So, let's just agree to disagree.  ;)
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digitaldog

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2022, 11:35:25 am »

Moreover, constantly resetting monitor contrast to match print output is impractical for printmakers like myself who frequently change media, inks, and even use different printer models on a regular basis.
Takes me mere seconds on a SpectraView.
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I can also see where some printmakers will prefer Digitaldog's recommendations and perhaps even tune their setup to soft proof with reasonable expectations without even turning the "simulate paper color" feature on.
That was never my recommendation!
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So, let's just agree to disagree.
Use any workflow that works for you. The OP asked as did others, I explained mine and like you, they can go in any direction that they desire that works for them.
But the bigger point is, that control over calibration and DR of a display I've explained is common among higher-end products and solutions for a reason many of us find very, very useful.
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MHMG

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2022, 02:41:47 pm »

UPDATE - Good news.

We have discussed at some length in this thread the potential impact of a non color managed PS or LR interface on one's ability to achieve good screen to print matching while soft proofing the image. Digitaldog's video discusses one approach to the problem, namely calibrating your monitor to a lower contrast ratio similar to what the paper and ink choice delivers so that no areas on the display exceed the contrast ratio of the paper.

I was curious to figure out why I have not felt a need to drop my monitor contrast as per Digital dog's recommendation in order to compensate for these non color managed areas of the PS interface. I used my Mac's digital color meter app to evaluate all the PS interface color values.  It turns out that in recent versions of PS, Adobe has modernized its user interface appearance themes. There are four to choose from: very dark gray, dark gray, gray, and light gray such that for the most part they safely work within a narrower contrast range compatible with pretty much any chosen media, i.e., presenting a luminance contrast range no greater than approximately 50:1 over the vast majority of the PS interface. The dark gray and gray themes are good to go right out of the box. The very dark gray and lightest gray choices have some minor issues which I'll talk about below.

VERY DARK GRAY theme:  If one chooses the very dark gray interface theme, then the preview area in the interface, i.e., the area surrounding the image when the image isn't magnified enough to fill the interface, is too dark, not RGB 0,0,0 but still too dark to be an optimal choice. Thus, when choosing this very dark gray theme the discerning user should simply go one step further to customize its preview area by right clicking on the Mac (probably similar shortcut key on a PC) with the mouse pointer hovering over this preview area and then choosing "select custom color". That brings up the color picker tool and using the tool's LAB numeric fields just select a value for L between 20 and approximately 90 with a* and b* left at zero. These values represent typical worst-case paper white and paper black outcomes.  Or you can get fancy and match your paper white or paper black LAB values exactly if you like.  In other words, simply customize the preview area of your chosen workspace interface so that it is compatible with even the lowest contrast matte papers you are likely to print on, or if you like, match your paper white or paper black LAB value exactly, and you're good to go with this VERY DARK GRAY theme.

LIGHT GRAY theme: Like the dark gray and gray interface appearance themes, the lightest gray PS interface theme is essentially good to go out of the box as well, but it does use L=100 for some minor menu bar areas, and that choice does not appear to be user addressable. These menu bars constitute less than 98% of your display area, so the human visual system will basically treat it like a specular highlight and not change its overall brightness adaption level. However, if you want to be obsessive compulsive about your soft proofing environment, just don't choose this lightest gray appearance theme.  I've personally never used this lightest interface theme because I think it looks butt ugly, but somebody out there must like it  :)

Bottom Line: While it can still be argued that in a perfect world the whole PS interface should be color managed using the chosen ICC printer profile when in soft proof mode, Adobe's modern interface appearance themes largely avoid brightness adaptation level problems by virtue of the fact that their neutral color range graphics design stays within a much lower (approximately 50:1) contrast range whether your display is calibrated to a much higher contrast range or not.

final note: I don't use LR and haven't checked its interface design, but I'd wager it follows the PS interface design closely. Hence, LR will likely also pose no brightness level adaptation problems when using its soft proofing features.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 02:46:00 pm by MHMG »
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digitaldog

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2022, 03:00:40 pm »

final note: I don't use LR and haven't checked its interface design, but I'd wager it follows the PS interface design closely. Hence, LR will likely also pose no brightness level adaptation problems when using its soft proofing features.
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Might want to check before we wager.  ;D
In some respects, LR is superior and more modern in handling all this UI when soft proofing; you can actually select paper white for the image surround, unlike Photoshop, or like PS, a larger number of percentages of white to dark. But unlike PS, it doesn't do this everywhere; the menu text menubar is one example. But for that matter, PS doesn't alter the menu text either, although that's pretty tiny, and if you use key commands, not pertinent. And like PS, tab key provides full screen mode.
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It turns out that in recent versions of PS, Adobe has modernized its user interface appearance themes.
This has been around since at least CC 2017.
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FrankG

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2022, 09:34:07 am »

Feedback & a question.

I just received c-type prints from the lab after soft proofing with their icc profile & using the above mentioned 'makes my image look like crap' button.
I made some contrast & other layer adjustments to bring the image back to being closer to how it was & as I'd ideally like it.
Worked out well.

However, one thing I did notice on a few images that contained warm tones (yellow / red) is that these colours are a little more saturated than expected. This could of course be a problem with their profile or my display calibration or my layer adjustments...
I contacted them and they recommend calibrating to D50 & viewing at D50. Whereas Ive been calibrating to D65 & my old Pantone viewing box is, I think/not 100% sure, 5000K (D50)

Q1: Would the difference between their recommended D50 & my D65 (1500K?) calibration be what accounts for the yellows being more saturated?
Q2:And if so, would it make more sense to re-calibrate to D50 (considering that that profile & paper/print type isn't the only one that I use), or to simply compensate by adding a Hue/Sat adjustment layer and taking down the yellow (&/or red) a little when using it (trial & error)?
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digitaldog

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2022, 12:18:56 pm »

However, one thing I did notice on a few images that contained warm tones (yellow / red) is that these colours are a little more saturated than expected. This could of course be a problem with their profile or my display calibration or my layer adjustments...
I contacted them and they recommend calibrating to D50 & viewing at D50. Whereas Ive been calibrating to D65 & my old Pantone viewing box is, I think/not 100% sure, 5000K (D50)
The print itself is more saturated than the display in yellows? These colors may be out of the display color gamut. If you post an example of the yellows (I need say 300x300 pixels, even a crop) and your display profile, I can compare the color gamuts in ColorThink Pro.
DO NOT futz with the calibration at this point or based on what they said just because some yellows are not a perfect match. Is the rest of the image when soft proofing close?
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Q1: Would the difference between their recommended D50 & my D65 (1500K?) calibration be what accounts for the yellows being more saturated?
Q2:And if so, would it make more sense to re-calibrate to D50 (considering that that profile & paper/print type isn't the only one that I use), or to simply compensate by adding a Hue/Sat adjustment layer and taking down the yellow (&/or red) a little when using it (trial & error)?
There is only one device that actually produces D50 or D65, it is 93 million miles from your display. 1500K is a large range of possible colors too! CCT expressed in Kelvin isn't a defined color like D50 or D65 as seen below:

On the line labeled e-f, any color can be called/considered 5000K.
You can recalibrate and see if the soft proof is closer or farther off but again if everything 'syncs' up visually but a range of yellows, you may likely be in a good place and just dealing with out of gamut colors. Altering the WP as suggested will alter all the colors which may not be what you want or need.
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FrankG

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2022, 03:48:20 pm »

I went through the entire process and started a reply with an attached 300px crop + the display profile.
And then had another long and close look at the prints and the screen image and re-evaluated.
Now find that it's not as far off the mark as I had at first thought. The difference is more my misinterpretation of what exactly I delivered to the printer. I'm going to re-do the file/s and re-print them. I'll get back to the thread (it takes a couple weeks for the print job turnaround + the postal service to deliver). Sorry to waste your time now.

The chart with the e-f line shows the explanation of different colours all being at 5000K very well . Thanks.
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FrankG

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2022, 09:39:25 am »

Ever since I was taught here to check the 'simulate paper / ink' my results have improved dramatically. I do thenwork with adjustment layers to bring the image back to the pre-soft proof look (to match the original) as best I can within the limitations.
A small detail...in Edit>Col Settings >Advanced... what % do you desaturate your display ? The default is 20% (see screenshot). Or is it already taken into account by the display calibration software? Any other settings here that I should be changing?

For your interest only, no debate needed, there's a daily 'photo land' newsletter Petapixel that just this morning published another article on soft proofing that again omits the 'simulate paper & ink' button - https://petapixel.com/soft-proofing/
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digitaldog

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2022, 10:15:28 am »

Your color settings seem fine* and indeed, keep the desaturate option OFF; it's a huge hurt me button you should never use.
The Petapixel omits an important step in soft proofing while mucking up some understanding of this topic; nothing new.  :'(
*Edit: I personally prefer Ask over Preserve but that's not critical.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 10:25:11 am by digitaldog »
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FrankG

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Re: Soft Proofing - Simulate Paper Col question
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2022, 10:41:03 am »

Thanks
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