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Author Topic: Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?  (Read 1803 times)

nicoswartz

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Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?
« on: August 08, 2021, 04:40:21 am »

Hi All! Thanks for all the great advice I've received so far.
Another question about the longer focal lengths on my WRS-1200 / IQ3100
For the wider angles, I own Rodenstock lenses.
For the longer ends (70mm and up) I'm considering using my Hasselblad V (cfe/cfi) lenses.
Is there a major difference in quality between the V-lenses and (for example) the 70mm Digaron-W?
I know there's a big difference in the image circle. But that's not important for me.
It's more about the sharpness, If they don't differ that much I like to go for the V's
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 05:20:30 am by nicoswartz »
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Rod.Klukas

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Re: Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2021, 02:45:05 pm »

I believe the 70mm is better.  Up through 150mm on Hasselblad V lenses, you should be OK.  But with the 180mm and longer the lenses began to get quite heavy and the torque leverage increase as well.  This may cause issues with your camera.  Maybe, Maybe not.  I have not tried longer than 150mm CF lens, so can't be definitive.  But I would consider this.  The Hassy lenses are front loaded compared to a large format style lens.

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Balafre

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Re: Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2021, 04:38:34 pm »

Bear in mind the old 'V' series lenses only have image circles large enough to cover a 6x6 cm piece of film - tilting and shifting will reduce this drastically. The only Hasselblad lenses with V mounts that were specifically designed for movements were the Rodenstock Grandagon's made to pair the Hasselblad Arc body made around 2000 for a few years. They are small, back loaded, optically superb and have monstrous image circles. From memory there were 35, 45 and 75 mm lenses. They are also specific centre filters for use if needed, and while they're very hard to find they're worth the search.
Apart from this the 180 f4 CF was an optical masterpiece of the time and left the 150 wallowing in the dust. The 180's acuity and tone were astonishing. Rod Klukas's comment about rotational leverage is very relevant, but if you don't leave the lens permanently mounted I'd feel confident using it in studio on an 'as required' basis.
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2021, 04:08:24 pm »

Bear in mind the old 'V' series lenses only have image circles large enough to cover a 6x6 cm piece of film

The image circle for Hasselblad V mount lenses are not identical throughout the range and most have image circles larger than the film format. This is especially true of the longer V mount focal lengths from 100 mm and longer, although even the 60 and 80 mm lenses also offer noticeably larger image circles than the 40 and 50 mm focal lengths.

Hasselblad made the FlexBody camera for V system lenses and accessories providing +/- 14 mm shift and 28º rear tilt utilizing the image circle which extends beyond the film size. The user manual for the FlexBody camera has a chart on the first page showing the usable shift range for some of the lenses (at infinity and f/16). Of course, if you focus closer than infinity, the image circle will increase.

There is also a thread from 10-years ago with some user supplied information on usable shift range for Hasselblad V mount lenses.

The only Hasselblad lenses with V mounts that were specifically designed for movements were the Rodenstock Grandagon's made to pair the Hasselblad Arc body

The lenses for the Hasselblad Arc camera are not V mount lenses. Their lens mount is exclusively for the Arc camera. Other Hasselblad V system accessories are interchangeable with the Arc camera, but not lenses.

Apart from this the 180 f4 CF was an optical masterpiece of the time and left the 150 wallowing in the dust.

The 180 mm is certainly a fine lens in the V mount series. I have also used the 150 mm many times and never had one that wallowed in the dust, your experience may differ. The Hasselblad 100 mm lens is a V system lens known for its high resolution and near zero distortion. Lens data sheets with MTF charts for Hasselblad V mount lenses can be found here.
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Balafre

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Re: Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2021, 05:33:28 pm »

The image circle for Hasselblad V mount lenses are not identical throughout the range and most have image circles larger than the film format.

Hello - I'm not sure where you source your information here. THE Ernst Wildi himself made this 6x6 image circle claim in his Hasselblad Manual 'Bibles, of which I had several editions up to the Fourth.

I also owned a Flex Body, and 40/60/80/120 macro/180 CF & 110 FE lenses that I ran on a 205 TCC Body, (and a 38 mm 905SWC) - the point being the Flex Body was a dog, and movements only ever robbed me of image area - I could get a perfectly shifted/tilted 4 x 4 cm image on a 6x6 piece of film! It undermined the whole value of MF to end up with something nearer 35 mm!

But as I only ever borrowed the Arc Body I 'll defer to you comments here re the Rodenstock Grandagon mounting flanges, and apologise for my error.
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2021, 12:54:45 am »

Hello - I'm not sure where you source your information here.

I gave links to the sources in my earlier reply. 1) The Hasselblad FlexBody manual. 2) User supplied shift data from a thread on the topic a decade ago on Luminous Landscape. The latter includes the 180 mm lens which has been discussed.

An additional technical note, 6x6 cm is the nominal Hasselblad image size. The actual image size is approximately 55 x 55 mm (as given in the FlexBody manual chart of lens shift range). The image diagonal is approximately 78 mm.

In addition to being able to use the full square format, the FlexBody (and some later model V cameras) can be used with a variety of masks inserted in the back of the camera body (or simply cropped after capture) for various rectangular aspect ratios. Among them is a set (Cat #41151) which includes a "6x4.5" (approximately 42 x 55 mm) format mask which reduces the image diagonal to approximately 69 mm and a "6x3" ratio panoramic mask. Included with the FlexBody is a "4x5" mask (40 mm x 50 mm) which has an image diagonal of 64 mm. When using 6 x 4.5 or 4 x 5 as the aspect ratio, the usable shift range with the FlexBody increases for the 80 mm and shorter focal lengths as well as the 250 mm.

THE Ernst Wildi himself made this 6x6 image circle claim in his Hasselblad Manual 'Bibles, of which I had several editions up to the Fourth.

Yes. I'm well acquainted with "THE Ernst Wildi himself". If you'd prefer getting information for V series lenses and their maximum recommended shift with the FlexBody from him, it can be found on page 224 (Table 13-1) of his 7th edition of The Hasselblad Manual. His recommendations are the same as in the FlexBody manual which I linked earlier, but with the useful addition of maximum shift recommendations for the included 4x5 format mask. * There is a minor error in the Wildi Hasselblad manual which states that the 6x4.5 mask is included with the FlexBody—it is the 4x5 mask which is included.

Full square format: 40 mm - 0; 50 mm - 5 mm; 60 & 80 mm - 10 mm; 100 & 120mm - 14 mm; 250 mm - 10 mm

With Mask: 40 mm - 7mm; 50 mm - 12 mm; 60 mm thru 250 mm - 14 mm * The maximum shift range of the FlexBody is +/- 14 mm.

The rear tilt mechanism does not move the image plane outside of the lens image circle and is very useful in situations where the lens on the camera base rail axis and back are both tilted for the desired perspective and depth of field control as in this example. Also, I'll note here again, when focusing closer than infinity, your image circle will generally increase in approximate proportion to magnification although this depends on the lens design.

The precise wording he uses in discussing generally the "limited covering power" of the V series lenses is with regard to the maximum format the "lenses were designed to cover". That's correct. The lenses were designed to cover the maximum film format of the various V system cameras (nominally 6 x 6 cm). However, the image diagonal the lenses are designed to cover and the image diagonal that they are actually able to cover is not the same thing. There are users of tilt-shift lenses designed for 35 mm (24 x 36 mm) format now using those same lenses with current 33 x 44 mm medium format cameras successfully.

As is generally the case with any lens, as you move away from the center of the image circle toward the edges resolution and contrast decrease and vignetting increases. Some FlexBody users feel that the Hasselblad recommendations are a little conservative and find results acceptable for their needs a bit beyond the suggested limits. This is determined by the individual user's requirements and the specific lens being used.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 07:21:31 am by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2021, 11:24:22 pm »

I also owned a Flex Body, and 40/60/80/120 macro/180 CF & 110 FE lenses that I ran on a 205 TCC Body, (and a 38 mm 905SWC) - the point being the Flex Body was a dog, and movements only ever robbed me of image area - I could get a perfectly shifted/tilted 4 x 4 cm image on a 6x6 piece of film! It undermined the whole value of MF to end up with something nearer 35 mm!

Your individual experience and assessment is yours. Others, myself included, have had very different experiences from your own. There are a number of FlexBody owners who have commented online regarding their own satisfaction in using the camera system and the resulting images. Of course, it's easy to find different opinions about any equipment.

Since this thread is about using the V lenses on a different camera, I'll leave it at that.
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BAB

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Re: Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2021, 04:50:10 am »

Great stories and conversations they bring back memories to my mind of a Once great company aggressively producing Fine Haute Couture cameras and lenses…someone must have pissed off the new owners so until the present contract elapses we all take ride!
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alatreille

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Re: Hasselblad V's or Rodenstock for longer focal length's?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2021, 04:12:40 pm »

I'll chime in briefly here.

I've used the Pentax 645 A* 300mm F4 on my Arca with the IQ4150 and Rm3di

One word for it.  Fantastic.
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