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Author Topic: The "Joel Grimes Method".  (Read 14995 times)

William Walker

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The "Joel Grimes Method".
« on: June 30, 2021, 07:11:56 am »

I came across this video yesterday and have tried this method of B&W conversion.

The difference is quite noticeable!

https://youtu.be/z4HYksU_7Tg
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Bob_B

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2021, 06:56:43 am »

Thanks for the tip, William.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2021, 02:52:13 pm »

What's the tip?  I don't have time to watch the whole thing.

marvpelkey

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2021, 07:29:47 pm »

Coincidently, I watched a few minutes of two of his recent videos.

I had to stop each after only a short while as I found it frustrating to listen to him. He may know his stuff but, boy his "public" speaking skills are lacking. It's like he didn't have any prior plan or thought on how he was going to present the material and just jumped right in and started talking.

By the way, William, if you would be willing to elaborate a bit - "The difference is quite noticeable", - from what?

Marv
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rabanito

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2021, 03:51:46 am »

Hmmm....
I think that it was a nice thing to share the link with us.
I've learned lots of things from this kind of "tutorials" and am grateful for it.
Some speakers are not perfect communicators, others put horrible background music, others  use (at least to me) ununderstandable English, depending on the region of the world they come from...
But most are for free and it's up to you to do the most of it. Or not-
Just MHO
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Bob_B

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2021, 10:01:22 am »

For those impatient with the presentation (and for good reasons), start the video around 19:00: that's his tip in a nutshell.
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mdijb

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2021, 08:39:45 pm »

After watching the video I did my own testing and can confirm what he is saying.   I compared the 16 bit and 32 bit processing and saw that the 32 bit had noticeably better details and contrast, especially in the shadows.  On some images the differences were small but present, on others it was more dramatic.  I also compared his method to the method built into Lightroom and saw the same results.  I think that Lr is using a 16 bit method to make its results.  I also compared the Lightroom "merge to HDR Pano" feature that automates a lot of the work and found the results compared to merging the image sets individually was not as good.  It was more work but I think the results were worth it.  I just completed a Pano of some beautiful Monsoon clouds we get here in AZ, using his method and am very pleased with the results.  I suggest you try  his stuff for yourself.

MDIJB
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rabanito

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2021, 04:27:59 am »

For those impatient with the presentation (and for good reasons), start the video around 19:00: that's his tip in a nutshell.

Thanks for the tip, Bob
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William Walker

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2021, 08:05:35 am »

After watching the video I did my own testing and can confirm what he is saying.   I compared the 16 bit and 32 bit processing and saw that the 32 bit had noticeably better details and contrast, especially in the shadows.  On some images the differences were small but present, on others it was more dramatic.  I also compared his method to the method built into Lightroom and saw the same results.  I think that Lr is using a 16 bit method to make its results.  I also compared the Lightroom "merge to HDR Pano" feature that automates a lot of the work and found the results compared to merging the image sets individually was not as good.  It was more work but I think the results were worth it.  I just completed a Pano of some beautiful Monsoon clouds we get here in AZ, using his method and am very pleased with the results.  I suggest you try  his stuff for yourself.

MDIJB

Those were my findings too.

I have altered my workflow from his based on another similar video: I take the three images into "Merge to HDR Pro in Photoshop", set it to 32-bit, but uncheck the Camera Raw box. It ends up as a 32-bit Tiff in PS. Save that back to Lightroom and in the Library Module go to "Library" at the top and take the option to "Convert to DNG". The Tiff file is converted into a 32-bit DNG. Carry on with your usual workflow.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 06:29:57 am by William Walker »
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William Walker

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2021, 08:11:27 am »

Coincidently, I watched a few minutes of two of his recent videos.

I had to stop each after only a short while as I found it frustrating to listen to him. He may know his stuff but, boy his "public" speaking skills are lacking. It's like he didn't have any prior plan or thought on how he was going to present the material and just jumped right in and started talking.

By the way, William, if you would be willing to elaborate a bit - "The difference is quite noticeable", - from what?

Marv

Hi Marv - there is little doubt that different tone backgrounds are noticeably smoother than any other method I know of. See "MDIJB's" comment... Try the different methods and see for yourself .
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David Eckels

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2021, 08:59:27 am »

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2021, 12:28:51 pm »

I have altered my workflow from his based on another similar video: I take the three images into "Merge to HDR Pro in Photoshop", set it to 32-bit, but uncheck the Camera Raw box. It ends up as a 32-bit Tiff in PS. Save that back to Lightroom and in the Library Module go to "Library" at the top and take the option to "Convert to DNG". The Tiff file is converted into a 32-bit DNG. Carry on with your usual workflow.
I tried Bob_B's suggestion to start the video at 19 minutes, but the explanations were so vague and the illustrations too small to see any of the desired effect.

But William Walker's description gives a clear outline of the essential steps (once you know what "the three images" are,) so Thank You William!
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William Walker

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2021, 06:16:16 am »

Crop of 16-bit and 32-bit - identical Lightroom adjustments.

32-bit above. 16-bit below.

Edit: I forgot to add that this is about a 200% crop.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 10:27:48 am by William Walker »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2021, 07:33:20 am »

Crop of 16-bit and 32-bit - identical Lightroom adjustments.

32-bit above. 16-bit below.

It reduces noise!?

Can you describe how you got to the final pics, please? Is the process the one from the post #8?

Alan Klein

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2021, 07:52:36 am »

Would adjusting noise or masking sliders with one picture reduce noise similarly? 

William Walker

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2021, 09:03:51 am »

It reduces noise!?

Can you describe how you got to the final pics, please? Is the process the one from the post #8?

Yes Slo: I take 3 photos -2EV, 0.0EV, +2EV. From Lightroom I go to "Merge to HDR Pro in PS". In HDR Pro I set it to 32-bit and uncheck "Tone In ACR". It ends up in PS as a 32-bit TIFF. Save. It appears in Lightroom as a TIFF.
In Library Mode, I go to "Library" in the menu bar and select Convert to DNG. It converts it to a DNG. Check 32-bit as per Screenshot.

You now go ahead and process the image as you normally would. (In Lightroom! The moment you send it back to PS it becomes 16-bit.)

All I did in the above pics of the church was as described in the process above then I selected the 0.0EV photograph and synced the adjustments (with the 32-bit DNG) and ended up with the two examples I posted.

Simple!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 09:10:03 am by William Walker »
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Alan Klein

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2021, 09:34:47 am »

Yes Slo: I take 3 photos -2EV, 0.0EV, +2EV. From Lightroom I go to "Merge to HDR Pro in PS". In HDR Pro I set it to 32-bit and uncheck "Tone In ACR". It ends up in PS as a 32-bit TIFF. Save. It appears in Lightroom as a TIFF.
In Library Mode, I go to "Library" in the menu bar and select Convert to DNG. It converts it to a DNG. Check 32-bit as per Screenshot.

You now go ahead and process the image as you normally would. (In Lightroom! The moment you send it back to PS it becomes 16-bit.)

All I did in the above pics of the church was as described in the process above then I selected the 0.0EV photograph and synced the adjustments (with the 32-bit DNG) and ended up with the two examples I posted.

Simple!
William: Have you compared the three picture process to adjusting noise or masking sliders with one picture?  It would be interesting to know the difference if any.   

It reminds me of scanning the same film image twice.  The process winds up combining or smearing grain from the two scans so it looks cleaner.  But you can accomplish the same thing by using adjustments on one picture in half the scan time and three times simpler.

James Clark

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2021, 09:55:39 am »

What I see is a reduction in noise (or maybe reduction in granularity is a better description), but without the usual accompanying loss of sharpness or increased smearing you get with simple NR.

Looking at this (and at the OP's recent image in User Critiques), I'm sort of ambivalent about this process, I guess.  Any poor soul that's been paying attention to my sort-of-infrequent posts lately knows that I've been on a pretty heavy BW kick, and I've been playing mainly with X-Trans Fuji equipment.  Maybe it's just my own personal perspective, but what I'm finding is that, for what I'm shooting right now, I'm enjoying the "filmic" quality of the Xtrans BW files and prints, and I'm not certain that this method isn't resulting in "digitizing" what I am tryong so hard to "de-digitize"

Do I see the smoother tones and transitions, and the resultantincreased sharpening and clarity?  Yep - sure do.  Do I think it improves the picture?  Not quite as certain.  Could that opinion just be me putting too much emphasis on imitating the "feel" of something traditional isntead of embracing the advantages of a technique like this?  100% it could be. 

I'd be interested in looking at the ultimate difference in my "typical" end result - a 20x30 print on a rough matte paper.  Iwonder if the smothenss and the clarity would add to or detract from the fine art look I strive for.

Interesting discussion - thanks for sharing!

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William Walker

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2021, 10:20:03 am »

William: Have you compared the three picture process to adjusting noise or masking sliders with one picture?  It would be interesting to know the difference if any.   

It reminds me of scanning the same film image twice.  The process winds up combining or smearing grain from the two scans so it looks cleaner.  But you can accomplish the same thing by using adjustments on one picture in half the scan time and three times simpler.

Alan, I don't think it is noise... 32-bit allows you to make more aggressive adjustments on the colour sliders, especially the blue. If you have ever been too heavy on dragging the blue slider too far to the left you will know what happens to the sky.
What you are seeing - I think - is those artefacts which the 16-bit can't handle.

I will gladly bow to a superior theory!
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The "Joel Grimes Method".
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2021, 12:56:44 pm »

"Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur."   :)
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