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larkis

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Phase One questions
« on: May 03, 2021, 01:57:10 pm »

Seems like most of the phase one dealers don't list any prices for the actual camera system, so I would like to ask a few things here.

1) How much is the phase one XT system with the 150 IQ4 back in Canada
2) What are the longer shooting options for the phase eco system in general ? I frequently shoot at 120mm or even 300mm on my Pentax 645z.
3) Does the XT system have weather sealing of any sort ? It's not heavy and great to take into high mountains, but will it put up with the weather and temperature swings ?
4) Are there focus stacking options on the XT ?
5) How much is the back by itself without the XT camera and lens ?

Paul2660

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2021, 03:13:24 pm »

You really need to contact a dealer, as all pricing as you noted is very difficult to locate.  US/Canadian dollars are different, I have not checked the difference in a while. 

Actual list on the IQ4 US dollar is between $49K to $54K, this is list with no trade in.  Phase One does offer reasonable trade ins from older backs.

Last time I checked the list price US of the XT was $5995.00, 2020 pricing, odds are it's gone up.

No weather sealing on the XT, or IQ4 or XF camera.  Not sure of any tech camera with weather sealing, (Alpa, Cambo, XT or Arca)

Focus stacking would require AF, so on the XT there is no automated focus stacking.  On the XF there is and it works quite well.  You can obviously manually stack on the XT.

Longer lenses:

Longest Phase One lens would be the 240mm Schneider, there is a teleconverter option that will take it further.

You can use older Mamiya Glass on the XF so the older White Mamiya lenses would work on the XF at least the 300mm.  You may have to modify the lens mount to work on the XF, where as it will work on the older AFDIII, II bodies.  But the IQ4 will only work on the XF.

Longest tech lenses I am aware of in normal use are the Rodenstock 180mm and 210mm.  Both require extensive back extensions on a tech camera.  There are I am sure older lenses that could be used, I am just familiar with the more modern offerings, from Schneider and Rodenstock for tech lenses. 

Paul
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Dan Wells

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2021, 10:35:02 pm »

They really do make the pricing difficult to find... It's probably CA $60,000+. I've heard there is substantial bargaining room, plus the backs are often leased.

Phase One is, however, REALLY expensive - you could buy a (literally) complete GFX system - all four bodies plus all the lenses for just about the price of the IQ4 back alone. If you didn't need an original GFX 50S body (or choose any other body to eliminate), three bodies plus all the lenses is clearly cheaper than the IQ4 150.

I don't know how well the tech camera adapters for Fujifilm bodies work, but they certainly exist... Cheaper than the XT, same idea, a bit less convenient because they're using a whole camera as a back.

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larkis

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2021, 11:35:49 pm »

In your opinion could you tell the difference between the gfx 100s and an iq 4 150 in a 40x30 print ? Do they have similar colour contrast and micro details given the optics ? The Fujifilm seems to have a great sensor (i had the gfx 100 on loan) but everything else about the system seems to be designed for mass market appeal. Is the quality control of the lenses good or are they hit and miss from a build quality/optical performance standpoint ?

Dan Wells

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Re: Phase One questions (includes pricing - finally found a list)
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2021, 02:23:30 am »

For the first time in decades, there is posted Phase One pricing (found a price sheet at a US dealer). There was a price cut last year...

Suggested retail prices (not sure how much room there is to bargain below this - there used to be quite a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if the decrease in prices also decreased bargaining room).

IQ4 150 system (includes back, XF camera, quite a few accessories, no lens).      $47990
IQ4 150 back only                                                                                           $39990
Upgrades to IQ4 150 from older backs                                                   $19000-$25000

The lowest upgrade prices depend on trading in a relatively new, high-end back (to pay $19000, you'd have to have an IQ3 100 MP Trichromatic, which is worth much more than $20000 used)...

 The $25000 upgrade allows an older back as a trade in that can be had for much less than $15000, so there's either negotiating room or it makes sense to buy an old IQ1 40 MP back on eBay for a few thousand dollars, only to trade it in right away.

Even if the IQ4 150 is really a $30000 back and a $38000 camera once you add the body, it's still over 6x the price of the GFX 100S for 50% more of the same pixels. It does come with warranty and support well beyond what lesser cameras have...

Interestingly enough, everything else that uses the same type of sensor  is more or less "priced by the pixel" to within a reasonable margin of error. The same basic Sony sensor comes in APS-C, FF, 33x44mm and the 54x40mm Phase One size, with resolution directly proportional to size.

Fujifilm X-T4             $1699          26 MP APS-C
Sony A7R IV              $3000          61 MP Full-frame
Fujifilm GFX 100S      $6000          102 MP 33x44mm
Phase One IQ4 150    $38000        150 MP 54x40mm

The A7R IV is a bit cheaper than it "should be", and the X-T4 is a tiny bit more expensive - but they're all within 10% or so, and the A7R IV just saw a price cut from $3500 (at $3500, it would have been right on the curve).

 Is the Phase radically more expensive because volumes are so low? Is making the big sensor without defects 6x as difficult as the 33x44mm sensor? Is the Phase extremely expensive to manufacture because it's essentially handmade?


« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 02:35:01 am by Dan Wells »
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Dan Wells

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2021, 02:34:20 am »

As for the image quality, I'm going to have the other three members of the Sony 3.76 m sensor progression all around for a multi-week test later in May and into June. I own an A7r IV, and both the GFX 100S and the X-T4 are on their way for review. I'll also have a Sigma fp L, which seems to use the A7r IV sensor...

 I'd LOVE to have the Phase in for review with its stablemates, but it's so rare and so expensive that it's probably a lot harder to borrow. I'm shooting the other three in a variety of National Parks as I drive from California to Massachusetts, and large prints will be made.

We'll see what print size (and technique) it takes to see the differences... Will the GFX (or anything else) actually take advantage of the 600 dpi mode on my Canon Pro 2000?

 If Capture Integration still has their office in New Hampshire, I wonder if I can borrow an IQ4 for a much shorter period, and take it up to the White Mountains for a day or two? Ideally while the Fujis are still around... THAT would make for an interesting review - four cameras with common sensor heritage, ranging from APS-C to 645...
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 02:38:27 am by Dan Wells »
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2021, 12:19:40 pm »

Dan, I would hope that you could conduct a test like that, with all the sensor sizes in the BSI Sony, 35mm, Crop MF 33 x 44 and Phase One 54 x 44.   

On the issue of image quality, it's a tough one as Phase tends to load up on their "user photographer" reviews.  (I can understand some of that however).

The first point would be that to get the best image quality you are tied to Capture One, especially on the IQ4 and some of it's advanced image capture options (dual exposure, frame averaging).  ACR/LR stock conversion of the both the 3100 and IQ4 are less than stellar, (typical one and done Adobe approach). 

Where the IQ4 Image quality really shines is with the tech camera.  As it's really the first CMOS sensor that can work with tech wides (Schneider 28 and 35, and Rodenstock 23,28,32 and 40) without considerable color cast.  Light fall off is also much less destructive.  The IQ4 also doesn't need the mandatory dark frame that the 3100 needs.  The 3100 had very harsh color cast and light fall off that could be corrected with LCC, but it still placed a strong load on the LCC.  With the IQ4 you hardly see color cast even on 15mm shifts, and nominal light falloff.  With the 3100, you pretty much needed to shoot a LCC after each shift per location in a days shooting.  Where as with the IQ4, you can take one series of LCC"s for the movements and continue to use them for the rest of the day as you are mainly correcting light falloff which is much more constant in nature than color cast.

Phase One offers a lower true base ISO with the BSI chip of 50.  Nikon and Fuji (not sure on Sony) all offer 50, but with the caveat that you no longer have the full dynamic range.

16 bit vs 14 bit, that subject has been beaten to death, personally I don't see much difference in the the two 16 bit offerings on the IQ4 vs 14 bit but still tend to stay in the 16 bit setting on the back. Depending on who you read, Fuji has little offer between 16 bit and 14 bit. 

Phase One developed in camera Frame Averaging and Dual Exposure. Both of these solutions handle all of the processing in camera (some may be done in final in C1).  Frame Averaging outdoors has limited workability since any slight subject movement creates blur that is most times not recoverable or blend-able (tree limbs against the sky for example).  But it create a basically noise free file and is workable through out the ISO Range of the back.  So in low light conditions were I know noise will be a possibility, I always shoot a frame averaged shot as many times I can blend in parts of the images (rocks or other stationary object and water).  Frame Averaging can create a very nice effect with moving water at times.  I realize this can be done in photoshop after the face, but the fact that the back can do all of this and kick out a ready to use raw file is impressive to me and no other camera yet I know of can do this.

Dual exposure is the real gem, only works up to ISO 400, however it creates amazing clean files that usually contain slightly more detail, especially in the shadows.  Dual exposure is not limited in shutter speed and combines a slow and faster exposure together into 1 raw file.  I pretty much use it all the time with the IQ4 as the results to me create the best image quality of any digital camera or back I have used.  Dual exposure can have issues with extreme subject movement, but in most situations, you will not get aliasing. 

Both of these solutions do require the E shutter use and a tripod.

Fuji, IMO should be able to implement one or both of these solutions.  Frame Averaging may be limited by the in camera processor (Phase IQ4 is Linux based). not sure on Fuji.  But I can't see why Fuji could not implement a dual exposure type of shot. 

It's a matter of cost and practical use issues for sure as the Phase One XF is very limited when compared to a modern mirrorless camera like the Sony 35mm or Fuji MF bodies.  Phase has no weather protection on anything XF, XT, IQ back or lenses.  The XF and 40-80 is a massive camera solution, requires a tripod for most if not all shots. Fuji with the 100s has a much smaller, lighter, hand holdable camera with very good image quality, even without the dual exposure or frame averaging offer.  I just feel Fuji would greatly benefit from adding one or both of these.

Paul
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Dan Wells

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2021, 01:11:47 pm »

I'm hoping I can come up with a Phase for a few days in late May/early June...The rest are arranged (or, in the case of the Sony, I own it) Does anybody know if Capture Integration still has an office in NH? they used to have a branch in Manchester (which is conveniently located between Boston, where I'll be for about three weeks, and the White Mountains, which are great landscape photo locations). Better yet, is Steve Hendrix still on the MF forum?

I'm probably going to use C1 for raw conversion anyway - I normally prefer DxO for critical work, but having an X-Trans camera (the X-T4) in the mix means no DxO, unless I use a mix of converters (which adds variables). I prefer C1 to Adobe for quality, and this is about quality, when there are several world-class cameras in the mix... One of the big questions is "just how big do you need to go to see the differences"? I'm sure the Phase would win a 10 foot print viewed from two feet away, but that's undisplayable in almost any circumstance.

Where does the X-T4 fall away from the pack? I know it eventually does, because I have good APS-C and good high-res FF prints on a wall, and the difference is visible at 16x24" and glaring at 24x36". The APS prints are X-T2, so the X-T4 is better, but it's not THAT much better...

Can the FF pixel monsters keep up with medium format at 24x36"? Or is there more detail to unlock? If there's more, how to unlock it? Will a really good inkjet print do it? Does it need the double-resolution mode that normally makes little difference? Or does it need LightJet to avoid dot gain, but giving up inkjet's archivality and gamut.

If everybody's clustered at 24x36", time to go BIG... What about 40x60"? 

I'm not a tech camera user (yet), and I wonder if learning one in the limited time I have would be realistic...
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2021, 01:42:49 pm »

Seems like most of the phase one dealers don't list any prices for the actual camera system, so I would like to ask a few things here.

1) How much is the phase one XT system with the 150 IQ4 back in Canada

I can't speak to Canada, but our website openly/directly lists the list price of all components and kits. For example:
https://www.photo-digitaltransitions.com/product/xt-phase-one-iq4-150mp-camera-system-copy/

Just keep in mind that there is almost always some promotion/deal/combo/whatever, so once you're moving from initial-gut-check to actual-consideration you should really be in touch with a dealer. It's literally their job to make it easy and pleasent for you to figure out what a ready-to-use kit will cost you in total; if they aren't doing that job, find another dealer.

There's also plenty of accessories (extra batteries, shades, mounts, etc) that factor in to total price. We (DT) have a custom line of accessories specific to the XT: https://www.photo-digitaltransitions.com/product-category/dt-exclusive-accessories/

2) What are the longer shooting options for the phase eco system in general ? I frequently shoot at 120mm or even 300mm on my Pentax 645z.

As mentioned above the highest native lens would be the Schneider 240mm with 2x adapter. To compare that on a composition-to-composition basis you can use this tool we created:
https://www.photo-digitaltransitions.com/support/lens-visualizer-tools/

There are also a large number of legacy lenses that can be adapted to the XT using a V mount or M mount. The Mamiya 300/4.5 or (quite rare) 300/2.8, various long Hassy 500 series lenses, etc. In general these older long lenses hold up better to 150mp scrutiny than their shorter brethren. Note there are some workflow limitations to using very very long lenses with a system without any optical viewfinder; you may have to mount the lens to the tripod rather than the camera, and you will probably want a fully-geared and very preceise head because even very small movements translate to large subject matter shift  but I suspect you know this already.

Also keep in mind that if your use case for very long lenses is only occasional, and you aren't a strict "compose in camera" adherent, you also have the option to crop in on the 150mp raw to achieve a longer effective focal length. In effect that's like using a 33x44 or 24x36 section of the sensor, but with the added benefit of being able to shift within the FOV of the 54x40 sensor. So for example, while it's true that a 300mm on your 645Z can be considered "longer" than a 300mm would be on a IQ4 150mp, if you used a 300mm on both cameras and cropped the IQ4 150mp to the same composition you'd actually end up with more pixels / more detail than the 645z.

3) Does the XT system have weather sealing of any sort ? It's not heavy and great to take into high mountains, but will it put up with the weather and temperature swings ?

No. It does not have any weather sealing rating. However, in 14 years of working with myriad Phase One clients it's been exceptionally rare for someone to have a weather-related failure of any kind. Probably that is attributable to some combination of the system being more robust to bad weather than you'd think, and owners treating it more carefully than they actually need to. In my personal experience I've felt totally comfortable working with various P1 cameras in any weather where it was still fun to shoot (others may find it fun and interesting to shoot in heavy rain; I personally do not).

4) Are there focus stacking options on the XT ?

Nothing automatic. However, the focus ring is direct/mechanical rather than fly-by-wire, so is a comfortable/tactile when doing manual focus stacking.

5) How much is the back by itself without the XT camera and lens ?

https://www.photo-digitaltransitions.com/product/phase-one-iq4-150mp-system/

Same caveat; use as a budgetary number. Promos/bundles/etc always changing.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 02:19:51 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2021, 02:06:49 pm »

Seems like most of the phase one dealers don't list any prices for the actual camera system, so I would like to ask a few things here.

1) How much is the phase one XT system with the 150 IQ4 back in Canada
2) What are the longer shooting options for the phase eco system in general ? I frequently shoot at 120mm or even 300mm on my Pentax 645z.
3) Does the XT system have weather sealing of any sort ? It's not heavy and great to take into high mountains, but will it put up with the weather and temperature swings ?
4) Are there focus stacking options on the XT ?
5) How much is the back by itself without the XT camera and lens ?

About 2), I am using the Hasselblad 180mm V on the Phase One XT, it's a very good & sharp lens and can be had for a song compared to Phase prices and it doesn't require any extensions and the like, just the Cambo adapter for Hasselbad V lenses.

Hope this helps, best regards

Vieri
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2021, 02:16:49 pm »

I'm hoping I can come up with a Phase for a few days in late May/early June...The rest are arranged (or, in the case of the Sony, I own it) Does anybody know if Capture Integration still has an office in NH? they used to have a branch in Manchester (which is conveniently located between Boston, where I'll be for about three weeks, and the White Mountains, which are great landscape photo locations). Better yet, is Steve Hendrix still on the MF forum?

I can't speak to Steve/CI. But DT has a physical office in NYC (easy train trip; our office is a 5 min walk from where the Boston train gets in) and a full-time employee that lives full time in lower Maine 2-3 hours from the White Mountains.

One of the big questions is "just how big do you need to go to see the differences"? I'm sure the Phase would win a 10 foot print viewed from two feet away, but that's undisplayable in almost any circumstance.

My experience is that people come for the resolution and stay for the dynamic range, color, rendering, and work process. Having more pixels is definitely helpful, especially for cropping and big prints, but even on a small print the dynamic range, color, tone, and rendering of a Phase One file is hard to beat. Re the work process having tools like in-camera automatic raw-file frame averaging, the in-camera behind-the-lens movements, the physicality of the system etc all create a very different capture experience notably some people will love it and some people will hate it; it's much closer in mentality and process to a 4x5 than an iPhone, and that isn't universally a better or worse thing.

Where does the X-T4 fall away from the pack? I know it eventually does, because I have good APS-C and good high-res FF prints on a wall, and the difference is visible at 16x24" and glaring at 24x36". The APS prints are X-T2, so the X-T4 is better, but it's not THAT much better...

I own a Fuji XH-1, an iPhone 12 Pro Max, and can use any of our P1 gear at any time. In my opinion you're asking the wrong question. It's really not about print size; it's about what and how you are shooting. When I have time, space (physical and mental), and opportunity (e.g. the subject matter is conducive to being shot on P1), I will always use the Phase One; it's rare that my motivation is the increased resolution, though it never hurts.

I'm not a tech camera user (yet), and I wonder if learning one in the limited time I have would be realistic...

I've been on plenty of workshops with photographers who started the week with their first-ever tech camera experience and were perfectly comfortable using it by the middle of the week. There is a learning curve, and on a short trip there is definitely a trade-off  it's always possible the best sunrise of your life will happen when you're still learning the ropes. Generally what I'd recommend is to set up for any given scene and shoot first with the camera you're totally comfortable with, and work the scene until you're comfortable you have something you're proud of. Then switch to the new camera and expend any remaining time reshooting the scene with the new camera. That poses the least trade-offs in my experience. It also gives you reasonably similar images to compare to see if you think the results are worth the various costs.

As for any comparisons, I encourage you to look beyond direct head-to-head image quality tests. Those are of some value (e.g. pixel peeping detail and directly comparing color) but they address a fairly narrow range of questions, and spoiler alert, the one built at a higher cost for a narrower range of goals (the P1) will win. Such tests also tend to converge toward the lowest common denominator in order to keep everything equal-and-fair. Do those kinds of comparisons; get them out of the way. But after that, and once you're familiar enough with the P1 that you're thinking more about the image than the machine, I encourage you to spend at least a day with each system as the only one you're carrying, and work each scene based exclusively on what that system allows. That is, use each to its absolute fullest the way you would if that was the only camera you had to explore the scene and create images. That way, your comparison is more holistic and, in my opinion, realistic. Reality, especially the reality of art, is messier than theoretical lab-based all-variables-controlled. If you connect with a camera and its work process, and you enjoy making images with it, and its modality of working fits your modality of creating, then you will get better images from it. That goes either direction; if the Fuji (or iPhone, or Sony, or film, etc) suits you better than an XT IQ4 then any resolution/detail/lens/color/DR comparison is moot. I can promise you that you will not be disappointed with the image quality from P1; I can't promise you that its work process will suit you  only you can determine that. Likewise I can tell you that you won't be disappointed by the acceleration or cornering of a super-car, but I can't tell you if you'll enjoy driving it. So, in any case, it's good you're thinking about testing.

Dan Wells

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2021, 04:40:10 pm »

This is an extremely useful reply - thanks, Doug!

 I'm very interested in getting the Phase One in on the test (which is an upcoming article on The Luminous Landscape - for those who don't know me, I'm the Dan who writes a large share of the technical content on the site). I'll PM or e-mail Doug to see what might be done. I'll also take him up on the idea of shooting with each system for a day or two.
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narikin

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2021, 02:11:26 pm »

In your opinion could you tell the difference between the gfx 100s and an iq 4 150 in a 40x30 print ? Do they have similar colour contrast and micro details given the optics ? The Fujifilm seems to have a great sensor (i had the gfx 100 on loan) but everything else about the system seems to be designed for mass market appeal. Is the quality control of the lenses good or are they hit and miss from a build quality/optical performance standpoint ?

I own both systems (plus others)

Yes, you can tell a difference, when you look closely. Phase IQ has the best color bar none.

I suspect it's simply that the Capture One profiles for IQ4-150 are the absolute ultimate they can create, whereas all the others - Fuji, Sony, Canon are 'very good'. Hair splitting/ pixel peeping for sure, but 'difficult' colors just seem to be mapped with the Phase but get the tiniest bit lost in Fuji/ Sony etc.

Your decision rests on the type of photography you are using them for - is its landscape trekking, with no reason to use on sensor PDAF, EVF, etc. Then Phase is good, simple, direct photography.
If you are using it for general photography, including fine resolution portraits, then the Fuji is far superior.
If action, and you need fast tracking with accurate focus: Sony A1/A7 or Canon R5.  Fuji AF is not reliably good enough.

Good luck.


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Dan Wells

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2021, 06:38:52 pm »

It seems very likely that the C1 profiles for Phase One backs WOULD be better than for anything else. For one thing, they know the exact spectral response of the various filters on their own back (they may well have designed them, and even if they're catalog parts, they know EXACTLY what they ordered). With a camera made outside of Phase One, they have to guess what the camera's seeing to at least some extent... I don't know how much information sharing they get, given their relationships with Sony, Fujifilm and Nikon - but it's probably not the same as "we designed this ourselves".
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2021, 04:25:15 pm »

They really do make the pricing difficult to find... It's probably CA $60,000+. I've heard there is substantial bargaining room, plus the backs are often leased.

Phase One is, however, REALLY expensive - you could buy a (literally) complete GFX system - all four bodies plus all the lenses for just about the price of the IQ4 back alone. If you didn't need an original GFX 50S body (or choose any other body to eliminate), three bodies plus all the lenses is clearly cheaper than the IQ4 150.

I don't know how well the tech camera adapters for Fujifilm bodies work, but they certainly exist... Cheaper than the XT, same idea, a bit less convenient because they're using a whole camera as a back.


Some dealers do not make Phase One pricing available, but there are those that do. Capture Integration is a Phase One specialized dealer, and we've posted the list pricing for Phase One for years. As Doug noted, you would be well served by contacting a dealer and seeing what sort of pricing arrangement you could make, especially important if you are upgrading from an existing digital back.

https://www.digitalback.com/collections/phase-one

An important distinction between using a Fuji GFX on a tech/view camera vs using a Phase One digital back on a tech/view camera is that the Fuji will not be able to shoot with wide angle view camera lenses (due to the extra depth of the camera body).


What are the longer shooting options for the phase eco system in general ? I frequently shoot at 120mm or even 300mm on my Pentax 645z.




The best options in my opinion are the Schneider 240mm/4.5 AF LS Blue Ring for new, and for legacy lenses, I have numerous clients who are happily using Hasselblad V lenses (specifically the Super Achromat 250). If using a tech camera, I like the Rodenstock 180 HR-S lens, very sharp, and will shift beyond what the 80mm image circle spec would imply. Also, some legacy view camera lenses can be impressive (Schneider Super Symmar HM 120mm being one such example).

Below is a recent article I wrote on the Schneider 240mm lens:

https://www.captureintegration.com/the-maddening-amazing-phase-one-240mm-blue-ring-lens/


Steve Hendrix/CI





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Dan Wells

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Re: Phase One questions
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2021, 05:59:48 pm »

The point about wider lenses on tech cameras attached to a body vs. a back is an important one... A second body adding spacing will certainly restrict what lenses can be focused. A GFX has a 26.7mm flange focal distance from mount to sensor (which is pretty darn short for medium format, although Hasselblad X has an incredibly short 18mm flange focal distance). The "flange focal distance" of a bare Phase back, however, is probably something like 3mm (the sensor is recessed from the surface of the back, but only a tiny bit). You can't mount a lens directly on the back, of course, but it only adds a few mm to whatever body is on there. Attaching a second body in front of a Fujifilm body means dealing with 26.7 mm plus the second body instead of ~3mm plus the (only)body.

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