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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 107052 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #380 on: March 10, 2021, 05:20:19 pm »

... Let's say there are 1000 Americans.  That means 740 are fat.  100 Americans get sick from COvid and die.  73 of the 100 are fat.  Well,  that's expected because 74 of the 100 are fat.  What does fat have to do with dying?

Let me write the article a different way.  Let's say 74% of all Americans are women.  So if 73% who die are women, would you say women are more likely to die because they're women?...

I get it now, makes sense, thanks.

Except being obese is not healthy. It puts a lot of strain on various organs, heart in particular. Contributes to diabetes. Makes it more difficult for the immune system to fight. So it could be both at the same time: coincidental and causal.

faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #381 on: March 10, 2021, 05:41:53 pm »

Maybe I should go eat dinner.  I'm just not getting it.

I am not sure eating dinner will help. But perhaps it will.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #382 on: March 10, 2021, 05:55:34 pm »

I get it now, makes sense, thanks.

Except being obese is not healthy. It puts a lot of strain on various organs, heart in particular. Contributes to diabetes. Makes it more difficult for the immune system to fight. So it could be both at the same time: coincidental and causal.
I agree.  You have two strikes against you.  Old and sick to begin with. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #383 on: March 10, 2021, 05:56:36 pm »

I am not sure eating dinner will help. But perhaps it will.
Leftover Chinese.  The worse stuff for old people who are fat like me. 

EricV

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #384 on: March 10, 2021, 07:36:51 pm »

CNBC uses different stats. The percentages of obese people quoted below are from 2018, so either in the last two years more people ate more junk or one of the sources uses wrong data.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html

Read more carefully ... this article is also clueless and misleading.
If 42% of the population is obese, what fraction of the population is obese or overweight?

I hate to agree with Alan, but I see no evidence from these statistics that obesity increases Covid mortality.

Here is a link to actual CDC data, for anyone who wants to play with real statistics:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR3-wrg3tTKK5-9tOHPGAHWFVO3DfslkJ0KsDEPQpWmPbKtp6EsoVV2Qs1Q#Comorbidities
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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #385 on: March 10, 2021, 08:15:03 pm »

Read more carefully ... this article is also clueless and misleading.
If 42% of the population is obese, what fraction of the population is obese or overweight?

I hate to agree with Alan, but I see no evidence from these statistics that obesity increases Covid mortality.

Here is a link to actual CDC data, for anyone who wants to play with real statistics:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR3-wrg3tTKK5-9tOHPGAHWFVO3DfslkJ0KsDEPQpWmPbKtp6EsoVV2Qs1Q#Comorbidities

What I meant was that obesity contributes to reduced immunity which among other things leads to an increase of inflammation and that creates other problems.

Quote
Obesity shares with most chronic diseases the presence of an inflammatory component, which accounts for the development of metabolic disease and other associated health alterations. This inflammatory state is reflected in increased circulating levels of pro-inflammatory proteins, and it occurs not only in adults but also in adolescents and children. The chronic inflammatory response has its origin in the links existing between the adipose tissue and the immune system. Obesity, like other states of malnutrition, is known to impair the immune function, altering leucocyte counts as well as cell-mediated immune responses.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22429824/
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #386 on: March 10, 2021, 10:01:08 pm »

Read more carefully ... this article is also clueless and misleading.
If 42% of the population is obese, what fraction of the population is obese or overweight?

I hate to agree with Alan, but I see no evidence from these statistics that obesity increases Covid mortality.

Here is a link to actual CDC data, for anyone who wants to play with real statistics:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR3-wrg3tTKK5-9tOHPGAHWFVO3DfslkJ0KsDEPQpWmPbKtp6EsoVV2Qs1Q#Comorbidities
Thnaks for your comments and chart. I thought I'd personally figure it out to see what the truth really is.  But after looking at the chart which is foreboding enough, I then read the Notes under the chart and decided I'm really not interested any longer.  In fact, I'd rather blow my brains out or start scanning again all night before I would tackle it. :o

NOTE: Empty data cells represent counts between 1-9 that have been suppressed in accordance with NCHS confidentiality standards. Conditions contributing to the death were identified using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD–10). Deaths involving more than one condition (e.g., deaths involving both diabetes and respiratory arrest) were counted in both totals. To avoid counting the same death multiple times, the numbers for different conditions should not be summated. Some deaths involve more than one of the same condition category (e.g. deaths involving unintentional and intentional injury often include two or more injury ICD-10 codes), the number of mentions presented on the table above represents the number of instances where the condition was cited on the death certificate. Number of deaths and number of mentions reported in this table are tabulated from deaths received and coded as of the date of analysis and do not represent all deaths that occurred in that period. Data for this table are derived from a cut of the National Vital Statistics System (NVSS) database taken at a particular time, separate from other surveillance tables on this page which are tabulated on the date of update. As a result, the total number of COVID-19 deaths in this table may not match other surveillance tables on this page. Data during recent periods are incomplete because of the lag in time between when the death occurred and when the death certificate is completed, submitted to NCHS and processed for reporting purposes. This delay can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death. United States death counts include the 50 states, plus the District of Columbia and New York City. New York state estimates exclude New York City.

[1] Deaths with confirmed or presumed COVID-19, coded to ICD–10 code U07.1

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #387 on: March 10, 2021, 10:07:53 pm »

On the plus side for those doubters of the possibility of herd immunity and who only trust the experts, Fauci has just announced that he believes America will reach herd immunity by the end of August or early Fall.  I didn't hear his usual qualification, "...it's most likely...", so that is a good sign some of us might actually see the end of the year.  :)

jeremyrh

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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #389 on: March 11, 2021, 07:59:38 am »

Thnaks for your comments and chart. I thought I'd personally figure it out to see what the truth really is.  But after looking at the chart which is foreboding enough, I then read the Notes under the chart and decided I'm really not interested any longer.  In fact, I'd rather blow my brains out or start scanning again all night before I would tackle it. :o

So much for intellectual curiosity.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #390 on: March 11, 2021, 08:03:38 am »

So much for intellectual curiosity.
I looked at the chart.  I tried.  But, they were too obtuse for me.  Maybe you can figure them out and report back. 

faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #391 on: March 11, 2021, 08:46:40 am »

I looked at the chart.  I tried.  But, they were too obtuse for me.  Maybe you can figure them out and report back.

It's not really my issue. Joe is responsible for introducing that link into the conversation.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #392 on: March 11, 2021, 08:56:32 am »

It's not really my issue. Joe is responsible for introducing that link into the conversation.
You'd have to be a masochist to try to figure that chart out. With what the Notes say, you'd never get to a complete conclusion in any case.

degrub

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #393 on: March 11, 2021, 08:59:20 am »

welcome to dealing with the real data behind science.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #394 on: March 11, 2021, 10:06:15 am »

On the plus side for those doubters of the possibility of herd immunity and who only trust the experts, Fauci has just announced that he believes America will reach herd immunity by the end of August or early Fall.  I didn't hear his usual qualification, "...it's most likely...", so that is a good sign some of us might actually see the end of the year.  :)

Your comments about "doubters" or not trusting experts makes no sense. I don't recall anyone here doubting the importance of herd immunity, only that it hasn't been reached yet. And Dr. Fauci is saying exactly that, isn't he? After all, isn't what vaccines provide an "accelerated" herd immunity, i.e., you don't have to wait for it to occur naturally by infection and illness/death.

I think you're so hell-bent on being antagonistic, instead of engaging in discussion for the purpose of greater understanding, that you unthinkingly always take what you perceive to be an opposite position, but you do so to absurd lengths. You are not alone in this. In fact it's commonplace these days, and lame "two-sided" debate TV news shows have perpetuated the farce, which are not debates at all. It's a front people put on, a show. Not many people actually behave like this in real life, not without consequence anyway. But for some reason, many now think this is how public discourse should proceed.
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degrub

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #395 on: March 11, 2021, 10:28:09 am »

It's just bar talk.... ;D
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #396 on: March 11, 2021, 11:13:10 am »

Your comments about "doubters" or not trusting experts makes no sense. I don't recall anyone here doubting the importance of herd immunity, only that it hasn't been reached yet. And Dr. Fauci is saying exactly that, isn't he? After all, isn't what vaccines provide an "accelerated" herd immunity, i.e., you don't have to wait for it to occur naturally by infection and illness/death.

I think you're so hell-bent on being antagonistic, instead of engaging in discussion for the purpose of greater understanding, that you unthinkingly always take what you perceive to be an opposite position, but you do so to absurd lengths. You are not alone in this. In fact it's commonplace these days, and lame "two-sided" debate TV news shows have perpetuated the farce, which are not debates at all. It's a front people put on, a show. Not many people actually behave like this in real life, not without consequence anyway. But for some reason, many now think this is how public discourse should proceed.
There are many here who have stated over and over that either there is no herd immunity or America would never reach it.  I would like to hear what they now think since an expert is predicting that it will happen. 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 11:16:41 am by Alan Klein »
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #397 on: March 11, 2021, 11:29:27 am »

There are many here who have stated over and over that either there is no herd immunity or America would never reach it.  I would like to hear what they now think since an expert is predicting that it will happen.

I have never heard anyone here state that "there is no herd immunity" or that "America will never reach it."

A few days ago I mentioned that there might be a problem reaching herd immunity by the end of summer given that polls indicate nearly half of Republicans have said that they don’t plan on getting vaccinated and that the vaccine has not yet been approved for people 16 and under. That is a lay opinion and I would defer to Dr. Fauci’s analysis. He certainly has access to better data than I do. I just know what I read in the news. Who knows, maybe approval of the vaccine for people 16 and under is imminent, and the Republicans who say they are not going to get vaccinated are lying to the pollsters.  I hope both of those things are true. The sooner we get everyone vaccinated the better.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 07:45:59 am by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #398 on: March 12, 2021, 03:17:48 pm »

There are many here who have stated over and over that either there is no herd immunity or America would never reach it.

What utter nonsense. The negative comments regarding "herd immunity" were regarding suggestions to forget about restrictions and just let the virus spread in order to achieve herd immunity instead of waiting on vaccines to accomplish that goal. Achieving immunity in a portion of the herd thru infection, as opposed to waiting for the herd to be immunized thru vaccination, results in greater thinning of the herd—and in this case the herd is people.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 04:30:30 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #399 on: March 12, 2021, 04:22:26 pm »

With all this talk about herds, I think I'm going to Bar B Q steak tonight for dinner. 
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