Pages: 1 ... 17 18 [19] 20 21 ... 153   Go Down

Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 107113 times)

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4851
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #360 on: March 10, 2021, 07:42:18 am »

What did people do before Google search?  Do you ever trust your own judgment and experience in life? Or do you always check things out with others?  Maybe they're dumb and just have a good line and BSing you.  A lot of people have great credentials and not a bit of common sense. Being able to read between the lines is often more important then the words themselves.

That is about what I would expect to hear from you, a purveyor of false facts and logical fallacies. What you suggest is simply intellectual laziness on your part. Instead of ascertaining the facts about whether the COVID mortality rate is lower for older people without comorbidities than for older people with comorbidities, you just want to make a wild ass guess, and then expect to be taken seriously.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 10:13:43 am by faberryman »
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #361 on: March 10, 2021, 08:38:54 am »

That is about what I would expect to hear from you, a purveyor of false facts and logical fallacies. What you suggest is simply intellectual laziness on your part. Instead of ascertaining the facts about whether the COVID mortality rate is lower for older people without comorbidities than for older people with comorbidities, you just want to make stuff up.
I don't think people who have read my posts believe that Frank. I think they've learned a lot from what I've had to say.   Challenging assumptions like I do and thinking out of the box is intellectual curiosity, not laziness. It's the people who always believe what they read who are lazy.

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4851
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #362 on: March 10, 2021, 08:50:20 am »

I don't think people who have read my posts believe that Frank. I think they've learned a lot from what I've had to say.   

You are, of course, free to believe anything you want.

Challenging assumptions like I do and thinking out of the box is intellectual curiosity, not laziness.

Making stuff up is not challenging assumptions and thinking outside the box.

It's the people who always believe what they read who are lazy.

But not as lazy as those who don't bother reading at all.

Let's revisit how this conversation started:

For example, they say older people with comorbidities are more likely to die.  Well, most older people have some commorbities like heart issues, diabetes, etc.  But the main reason they might be dying is because they're, well, old.  Their bodies can't handle the Covid attack. So they die.  Not because of the comorbidities but because the virus takes a toll on it's own.  But it's hard to prove they would have died anyway just of old age and COvid by itself.

Why would that be hard to prove? You could look at data and see if the mortality rate was the same in old patients with and without comorbidities.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 10:13:59 am by faberryman »
Logged

jeremyrh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #363 on: March 10, 2021, 09:56:29 am »

I don't think people who have read my posts believe that Frank. I think they've learned a lot from what I've had to say.   Challenging assumptions like I do and thinking out of the box is intellectual curiosity, not laziness. It's the people who always believe what they read who are lazy.

How lazy are the ones who don't read and just invent stuff?
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #364 on: March 10, 2021, 10:22:20 am »

I don't think people who have read my posts believe that Frank. I think they've learned a lot from what I've had to say.   Challenging assumptions like I do and thinking out of the box is intellectual curiosity, not laziness. It's the people who always believe what they read who are lazy.

+1

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #365 on: March 10, 2021, 10:56:42 am »

How lazy are the ones who don't read and just invent stuff?
But I read the Daily Mall article and it didn't make sense regarding the 73% vs 74% overweight statistic.  Even you said the article was BS.  So I questioned it as I should have.  Now you object to my doubt about it.  Make up your mind. 

jeremyrh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #366 on: March 10, 2021, 11:19:31 am »

But I read the Daily Mall article and it didn't make sense regarding the 73% vs 74% overweight statistic.  Even you said the article was BS.  So I questioned it as I should have.  Now you object to my doubt about it.  Make up your mind.

I pointed out that the charts it showed were reliable, and made sense in the context of age and risk.  So you didn't read the article properly, and you didn't read my comment on it properly.  Other than that - great job!
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #367 on: March 10, 2021, 11:25:11 am »

I pointed out that the charts it showed were reliable, and made sense in the context of age and risk.  So you didn't read the article properly, and you didn't read my comment on it properly.  Other than that - great job!
When the first paragraph of an article seems to make a mistake in concept, why would I waste my time reading and trusting the rest of what they have to say?  How could anyone trust anything they have to say? How can you so criticize the paper that published it as you did yet still trust what they're saying? What part of the article is true?  How do you know? 

jeremyrh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #368 on: March 10, 2021, 12:00:19 pm »

When the first paragraph of an article seems to make a mistake in concept, why would I waste my time reading and trusting the rest of what they have to say?  How could anyone trust anything they have to say? How can you so criticize the paper that published it as you did yet still trust what they're saying? What part of the article is true?  How do you know?

Read my comment and you'll find out.
Logged

TechTalk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3612
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #369 on: March 10, 2021, 12:35:12 pm »

Am I missing something?

Perhaps you're missing the difference between correlation and causation. Correlation in statistics may be an indicator of causation or it may not. Causation requires deeper investigation to determine if there are one or more additional factors that may be the causation for the correlation shown in data or to determine if the correlation is simply coincidental and unrelated to causation. Those are just a couple of examples. There are others. The point being that it is not safe to make assumptions on causation based solely on correlation without additional investigation or other supporting evidence.
Logged
Respice, adspice, prospice - Look to the past, the present, the future

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #370 on: March 10, 2021, 01:01:06 pm »

Perhaps you're missing the difference between correlation and causation. Correlation in statistics may be an indicator of causation or it may not. Causation requires deeper investigation to determine if there are one or more additional factors that may be the causation for the correlation shown in data or to determine if the correlation is simply coincidental and unrelated to causation. Those are just a couple of examples. There are others. The point being that it is not safe to make assumptions on causation based solely on correlation without additional investigation or other supporting evidence.
You didn't answer my question.  So let me paste the whole original question I asked.

But the article also says that 74% of all Americans are overweight.  So if 73% who die are overweight, that seems like there's no relation between weight and death.  In fact, it lines up exactly.  Am I missing something?

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #371 on: March 10, 2021, 01:12:28 pm »

The obesity is only a symptom of an unhealthy life style, the real cause is a wrong diet or lack of essential nutrients, contributing to a reduced immunity.

Quote
(NEXSTAR) — Obese individuals may be at a greater risk of severe COVID-19 complications, according to a new report released by The World Obesity Federation. The report links obesity with a series of health complications related to COVID-19. It found that increased bodyweight “is the second greatest predictor of hospitalization and a high risk of death for people suffering from COVID-19.” Only age ranks as a higher risk factor.

“We show that in those countries where overweight affects only a minority of the adult population, the rates of death from COVID-19 are typically less than one-tenth the levels found in countries where overweight affects the majority of adults,” the report states. It also found that “drivers” of obesity, including the consumption of high levels of processed foods, “are associated with mortality from COVID-19,” as a diet low in essential nutrients may weaken the immune system’s defenses.

https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/obesity-second-greatest-predictor-of-hospitalization-for-covid-19-report-says/
Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #372 on: March 10, 2021, 01:18:48 pm »

CNBC uses different stats. The percentages of obese people quoted below are from 2018, so either in the last two years more people ate more junk or one of the sources uses wrong data.

Quote
About 78% of people who have been hospitalized, needed a ventilator or died from Covid-19 have been overweight or obese, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said in a new study Monday.
Just over 42% of the U.S. population was considered obese in 2018, according to the agency’s most recent statistics. Overweight is defined as having a body mass index of 25 or more, while obesity is defined as having a BMI of 30 or more.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html
Logged

jeremyrh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #373 on: March 10, 2021, 01:58:38 pm »

You didn't answer my question.  So let me paste the whole original question I asked.

But the article also says that 74% of all Americans are overweight.  So if 73% who die are overweight, that seems like there's no relation between weight and death.  In fact, it lines up exactly.  Am I missing something?

One more time - read what I wrote !!
Logged

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4851
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #374 on: March 10, 2021, 02:16:06 pm »

You didn't answer my question.  So let me paste the whole original question I asked.

But the article also says that 74% of all Americans are overweight.  So if 73% who die are overweight, that seems like there's no relation between weight and death.  In fact, it lines up exactly.  Am I missing something?

I've got an idea. Instead of spending time trying to reconcile the figures in the Daily Mail article, which several here have mentioned may not be the most reliable source for that sort of data, why don't you go over to the CDC and get the figures straight from the horse's mouth. Once you have the figures in hand, you can analyze them, and share your conclusions with the group.  This is where you can put your vaunted intellectual curiosity to the test.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 03:52:34 pm by faberryman »
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #375 on: March 10, 2021, 03:06:54 pm »

You didn't answer my question.  So let me paste the whole original question I asked.

But the article also says that 74% of all Americans are overweight.  So if 73% who die are overweight, that seems like there's no relation between weight and death...

Can you explain what you mean by "seems like there's no relation between weight and death." How did you come to that conclusion?

TechTalk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3612
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #376 on: March 10, 2021, 03:09:38 pm »

You didn't answer my question.  So let me paste the whole original question I asked.

But the article also says that 74% of all Americans are overweight.  So if 73% who die are overweight, that seems like there's no relation between weight and death.  In fact, it lines up exactly.  Am I missing something?

I gave you a clue. So let me paste a highly simplified version that may be easier to understand.

"Correlation in statistics may be an indicator of causation or it may not. The point being that it is not safe to make assumptions... based solely on correlation"

Am I missing something?

Looks like it. I'd rather not speculate as to what it might be.
Logged
Respice, adspice, prospice - Look to the past, the present, the future

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #377 on: March 10, 2021, 04:55:12 pm »

CNBC uses different stats. The percentages of obese people quoted below are from 2018, so either in the last two years more people ate more junk or one of the sources uses wrong data.

Quote: About 78% of people who have been hospitalized, needed a ventilator or died from Covid-19 have been overweight or obese, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said in a new study Monday.
Just over 42% of the U.S. population was considered obese in 2018, according to the agency’s most recent statistics. Overweight is defined as having a body mass index of 25 or more, while obesity is defined as having a BMI of 30 or more.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html

I believe most of the people were elderly people who went to the hospital.  These people are often overweight, I believe.  Have your analysis and the article's analysis taken into account that because so many of the 78% are old, they would have died of old age anyway, not necessarily due to their overweight? Their weight was just coincidental.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #378 on: March 10, 2021, 05:06:11 pm »

Can you explain what you mean by "seems like there's no relation between weight and death." How did you come to that conclusion?
I said:
But the article also says that 74% of all Americans are overweight.  So if 73% who die are overweight, that seems like there's no relation between weight and death...

Let's say there are 1000 Americans.  That means 740 are fat.  100 Americans get sick from COvid and die.  73 of the 100 are fat.  Well,  that's expected because 74 of the 100 are fat.  What does fat have to do with dying?

Let me write the article a different way.  Let's say 74% of all Americans are women.  So if 73% who die are women, would you say women are more likely to die because they're women?   

Maybe I should go eat dinner.  I'm just not getting it. 

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #379 on: March 10, 2021, 05:09:31 pm »

I gave you a clue. So let me paste a highly simplified version that may be easier to understand.

"Correlation in statistics may be an indicator of causation or it may not. The point being that it is not safe to make assumptions... based solely on correlation"

Looks like it. I'd rather not speculate as to what it might be.
I didn't make the conclusion or assumption.  The article did. I'm questioning what their point was.  I don't see it as out of the ordinary.
Pages: 1 ... 17 18 [19] 20 21 ... 153   Go Up