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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 107098 times)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #260 on: March 05, 2021, 12:15:16 pm »


That is exactly the proof that it was negligible enough not to kill the economy and end life as we know it because of it.

"end life as we know it"?  A bit much but ok.


35,000 is, more or less, the accepted avg number of yearly deaths in the entire US population from flu. In the past year, 35,000 under-55s died from one virus, but you continue to refuse to address that as a special case requiring special action. I know you take some kind of pride in not following the "crowd" as if that action has some kind of merit in and of itself, but that tendency may be leading you astray.

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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #261 on: March 05, 2021, 12:34:59 pm »

I don't understand why we're arguing about statistics.  According to Biden, everyone will have their shots by the end of May or June so we'll all be in herd immunity or whatever.


First, the end of May date is when we will have enough vaccine for all adults, not when all adults will be vaccinated. Some adults will tarry and dawdle getting their first shot and then won't be eligible to get their second shot for 3-4 weeks after that. Second, the under 16 crowd is not included. No telling when the vaccines will be approved for them and how long it will take them to get vaccinated. Third, the last poll I saw said 42% of Republicans and 25% of the whole population are planning not to get vaccinated, so we are going to have a tough time getting to herd immunity once we deduct the anti-vaxxers and under 16. Fourth, having herd immunity does not mean no one will contract the disease. Fifth, what will change from the day before we achieve herd immunity and the day after?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 12:49:14 pm by faberryman »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #262 on: March 05, 2021, 12:38:39 pm »



Beyond just sounding dumb, you are employing two logical fallacies: straw man and reduction to absurdity.

With you, perhaps, with Jeremy, I disagree. 

Jeremy has made it known that he highly disapproved of me traveling to Chicago and TX in January for work, and to Providence back in October.  He also, on more then one occasion, stated his disapproval of me photographing local projects and continuing to work, which requires me to leave my house and enter other properties. 

He is pushing the absurd notion, albeit indirectly, we should only be leaving our houses for food and necessary supplies.  That is essentially fully locking down everyone. 

Unless he would like to share a nuanced view of how he would like to see this handled, and how those whom need to leave our house to work should proceed, this is how I interpret his feelings on the subject. 
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degrub

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #263 on: March 05, 2021, 12:45:04 pm »

anyone for getting back to the vaccine topic ?
Surely there are some learned opinions ?  ;D
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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #264 on: March 05, 2021, 12:57:29 pm »

I think we all judge risk differently, even with other things beside Covid.  And those change as we age or circumstances change.

Next week, I'm going to get a haircut and wash the cars to get a year's worth of mud off.  The cars, not my hair.

I always wash my hands but stopped washing my car a long time ago. The melting snow takes down both the mud and the virus.
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #265 on: March 05, 2021, 12:59:30 pm »

With you, perhaps, with Jeremy, I disagree. 

Jeremy has made it known that he highly disapproved of me traveling to Chicago and TX in January for work, and to Providence back in October.  He also, on more then one occasion, stated his disapproval of me photographing local projects and continuing to work, which requires me to leave my house and enter other properties. 

He is pushing the absurd notion, albeit indirectly, we should only be leaving our houses for food and necessary supplies.  That is essentially fully locking down everyone. 

Unless he would like to share a nuanced view of how he would like to see this handled, and how those whom need to leave our house to work should proceed, this is how I interpret his feelings on the subject.

That's not how I read Jeremy's posts, but I'll leave it to you to sort it out with him.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #266 on: March 05, 2021, 01:00:24 pm »


First, the end of May date is when we will have enough vaccine for all adults, not when all adults will be vaccinated. Some adults will tarry and dawdle getting their first shot and then won't be eligible to get their second shot for 3-4 weeks after that. Second, the under 16 crowd is not included. No telling when the vaccines will be approved for them and how long it will take them to get vaccinated. Third, the last poll I saw said 42% of Republicans and 25% of the whole population are planning not to get vaccinated, so we are going to have a tough time getting to herd immunity once we deduct the anti-vaxxers and under 16. Fourth, having herd immunity does not mean no one will contract the disease. Fifth, what will change from the day before we achieve herd immunity and the day after?
By the time that rolls around, let's say June, maybe earlier, the number of people dying will be less than the common flu.  So why couldn't we just get on with life as we did before Covid?

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #267 on: March 05, 2021, 01:01:52 pm »

I always wash my hands but stopped washing my car a long time ago. The melting snow takes down both the mud and the virus.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, I garage my cars.  So the muck on them just hardens.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #268 on: March 05, 2021, 01:10:20 pm »

With you, perhaps, with Jeremy, I disagree. 

Jeremy has made it known that he highly disapproved of me traveling to Chicago and TX in January for work, and to Providence back in October.  He also, on more then one occasion, stated his disapproval of me photographing local projects and continuing to work, which requires me to leave my house and enter other properties. 

He is pushing the absurd notion, albeit indirectly, we should only be leaving our houses for food and necessary supplies.  That is essentially fully locking down everyone. 

Unless he would like to share a nuanced view of how he would like to see this handled, and how those whom need to leave our house to work should proceed, this is how I interpret his feelings on the subject.
 
Maybe Jeremy can send you half his paycheck?  Would you accept British Sterlings?  :)

An interesting note is that for those who make the least in society here in America, the unemployment rate is around 20%, not 6%.  These are the people living week to week, paycheck to paycheck.  These are the people most hurt by a shutdown and inability to earn a living to feed their family.  Yet so many here are so nonchalant about that, so stuck on the possibilities of death from Covid they forget people die from starvation too.  Should these people live on the street?  I've been watching the homeless videos of people in LA living in tents on the streets there.  It's pathetic.  Like a third-world nation. Maybe some foreigners here just wish us ill.  They enjoy seeing America in trouble.  So they propose policies that make it worse for us. 

faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #269 on: March 05, 2021, 01:17:04 pm »

An interesting note is that for those who make the least in society here in America, the unemployment rate is around 20%, not 6%.  These are the people living week to week, paycheck to paycheck.  These are the people most hurt by a shutdown and inability to earn a living to feed their family.  Yet so many here are so nonchalant about that, so stuck on the possibilities of death from Covid they forget people die from starvation too.  Should these people live on the street?  I've been watching the homeless videos of people in LA living in tents on the streets there.  It's pathetic.  Like a third-world nation. Maybe some foreigners here just wish us ill.  They enjoy seeing America in trouble.  So they propose policies that make it worse for us.

You are opposed to Biden's COVID relief bill. How do you propose helping the people you describe without spending money?
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #270 on: March 05, 2021, 01:28:18 pm »

By the time that rolls around, let's say June, maybe earlier, the number of people dying will be less than the common flu.  So why couldn't we just get on with life as we did before Covid?

What are you currently unable to do as a result of local, state, and federal government restrictions?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 02:12:38 pm by faberryman »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #271 on: March 05, 2021, 01:42:49 pm »

Maybe Jeremy can send you half his paycheck?  Would you accept British Sterlings?  :)

Naah - I'm sure Joe doesn't want that - he is opposed to outside economic interference.  The more substantive point is that this pandemic has shown up the difference between countries with strong social systems and those with Devil-take-the-hindmost philosophies. Sweden was able to keep relatively few restrictions, at least for a while, because they could rely on people staying home if they tested positive.

Quote

An interesting note is that for those who make the least in society here in America, the unemployment rate is around 20%, not 6%.  These are the people living week to week, paycheck to paycheck.  These are the people most hurt by a shutdown and inability to earn a living to feed their family.  Yet so many here are so nonchalant about that, so stuck on the possibilities of death from Covid they forget people die from starvation too.  Should these people live on the street?  I've been watching the homeless videos of people in LA living in tents on the streets there.  It's pathetic.  Like a third-world nation. Maybe some foreigners here just wish us ill.  They enjoy seeing America in trouble.  So they propose policies that make it worse for us.

Absolutely not. I am very well aware that the stupidity displayed by some Americans is not representative of the population and I have great respect for many aspects of the US, but at the end of the day it is you who have chosen to not have proper support for the poor - those policies have been chosen by you.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #272 on: March 05, 2021, 01:50:50 pm »

With you, perhaps, with Jeremy, I disagree. 

Jeremy has made it known that he highly disapproved of me traveling to Chicago and TX in January for work, and to Providence back in October.  He also, on more then one occasion, stated his disapproval of me photographing local projects and continuing to work, which requires me to leave my house and enter other properties. 

He is pushing the absurd notion, albeit indirectly, we should only be leaving our houses for food and necessary supplies.  That is essentially fully locking down everyone. 

Unless he would like to share a nuanced view of how he would like to see this handled, and how those whom need to leave our house to work should proceed, this is how I interpret his feelings on the subject.

To be honest when you described the precautions you took for work on one occasion (don't remember what) I thought they seemed reasonable.  What I don't find reasonable is the idea that you'll just suit yourself.  A lot of the precautions are for protecting others. If going out for ribs or whatever was just a risk for you, that's fine (assuming you don't expect a hospital bed), but it's largely a risk you're imposing on others.

I agree with you that it seems that the risk of infection while outside is largely very small, given elementary precautions, so a lot of outdoor activities I'd guess are safe. Hopefully vaccines will take the pressure off the health services so that they can concentrate on tracing and combatting new variants that will inevitably pop up.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #273 on: March 05, 2021, 01:53:20 pm »

By the time that rolls around, let's say June, maybe earlier, the number of people dying will be less than the common flu.  So why couldn't we just get on with life as we did before Covid?

Because as long as there are a lot of infected people there is a good risk of new variants emerging which evade the vaccines, and that health services are not equipped to handle the resulting surge in infections.  This has been explained many times, Alan.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #274 on: March 05, 2021, 01:57:15 pm »

If you move to Cambodia or Greenland, you'll eliminate C-19 dangers altogether. They haven't had any C-19 deaths.

Moving to Greenland has some attractions, at least for a while!
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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #275 on: March 05, 2021, 02:00:23 pm »

Moving to Greenland has some attractions, at least for a while!

Much cleaner air, for sure.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #276 on: March 05, 2021, 02:02:00 pm »

To be honest when you described the precautions you took for work on one occasion (don't remember what) I thought they seemed reasonable.  What I don't find reasonable is the idea that you'll just suit yourself.  A lot of the precautions are for protecting others. If going out for ribs or whatever was just a risk for you, that's fine (assuming you don't expect a hospital bed), but it's largely a risk you're imposing on others.

I agree with you that it seems that the risk of infection while outside is largely very small, given elementary precautions, so a lot of outdoor activities I'd guess are safe. Hopefully vaccines will take the pressure off the health services so that they can concentrate on tracing and combatting new variants that will inevitably pop up.

So just to be clear, going out to work while taking precautions you feel is reasonable, along with engaging outdoor activities.  (I can live with that.) 

Going out to eat however is not. 

I, unlike other conservatives, will admit that the data clearly shows indoor dining is a vector for transmissions.  Personally though, I feel people should have the right to choose if they want to dine out, which is something we will have to agree to disagree on. 
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jeremyrh

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #277 on: March 05, 2021, 02:12:32 pm »

So just to be clear, going out to work while taking precautions you feel is reasonable, along with engaging outdoor activities.  (I can live with that.) 

Going out to eat however is not. 

I, unlike other conservatives, will admit that the data clearly shows indoor dining is a vector for transmissions.  Personally though, I feel people should have the right to choose if they want to dine out, which is something we will have to agree to disagree on.

Let's leave it there :-)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #278 on: March 05, 2021, 02:20:13 pm »

You are opposed to Biden's COVID relief bill. How do you propose helping the people you describe without spending money?
If we gave $2000 (not the $1400 proposed in the $1.9 trillion billi) to each of the 10 million people unemployed, it would cost $20 billion.  Add $400 a week for 12 more weeks of unemployment insurance payments = $48 billion.  That's $68 billion compared to $1900 billion in the latest bill. That's  a savings of over $1.8 trillion.

By the way, there's almost one trillion left over from the last stimulus bill unspent.  All this money is doing is making richer people richer as stock market, real estate and other assets increase in value.  Meanwhile, the cost of living increases due to inflation will punish these poorer people on fixed income.  The wealth between rich and poor will increase. Wasteful economics. Hurtful social policy. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #279 on: March 05, 2021, 02:30:12 pm »

To be honest when you described the precautions you took for work on one occasion (don't remember what) I thought they seemed reasonable.  What I don't find reasonable is the idea that you'll just suit yourself.  A lot of the precautions are for protecting others. If going out for ribs or whatever was just a risk for you, that's fine (assuming you don't expect a hospital bed), but it's largely a risk you're imposing on others.

I agree with you that it seems that the risk of infection while outside is largely very small, given elementary precautions, so a lot of outdoor activities I'd guess are safe. Hopefully vaccines will take the pressure off the health services so that they can concentrate on tracing and combatting new variants that will inevitably pop up.
But everyone who goes to restaurants understands the risk.  I wouldn't go and haven't although I have stopped by a restaurant for take-out to eat at home.  Others find even my doing that as too risky.  Everyone draws the line differently.  If someone is willing to risk working to feed his family, you seem to be very hard on someone trying to take care of their kids.  "Stay home" you insist.  His family apparently isn't as important as yours.

Don't you see the conflict in your demands?  You're doing what you accuse others of doing.  Caring more for yourself and your family than you do for them and their loved ones.
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