Designjet Z3200 PS - Faulty Carriage PCA?

[Brett L]

So my 24" Z3200 PS has a problem whereby certain colours print incorrectly - Notably MK-R but also Green. They lack saturation and appear faded. Especially on certain papers such as HP Matte Litho Realistic. Sometimes on a diagnostic print they won't print at all. I am also regularly instructed to reseat the MK-R printhead. If I switch the machine off and on again the printhead no longer needs to be reseated. After a huge process of elimination (replacing inks and printheads, cleaning printhead contacts, running diagnostics and finding high DeltaE readings, cleaning the colour spectrophotometer etc) I replaced the spectrophotometer. It was an educated gamble. It has not cured the problem.

Now when I run a diagnostic of the spectro it passes with a Maximum DeltaE of 3.724. However if I run a diagnostic of the Carriage Assembly the test fails on several things - including the ESP with a 58:11 'DeltaE out of limits'. The ESP is correctly seated. The Carriage assembly also fails on a PCA rev of 2.313 (apparently the value should fall between 0.823 and 1.005). Also the carriage voltage (+VS) should read between 43.6 and 46.3. Mine is 32.355.

Today the machine is insisting I replace various printheads. I replaced one (E-G) and then it said a different one needed replacing plus E-G needs replacing again - with the printhead not an hour old.

I thought I'd calibrate the line sensor too, seeing as it is part of the carriage assembly and connects to the carriage PCA. That failed too.

I don't believe that all of these individual parts can be at fault. They are all part of the Carriage Assembly and connect to the Carriage PCA. I'm ready to replace the assembly, in the hope that the problem will be solved for good. Or is the Carriage PCA sufficient? Or is it time to push my lightly used z3200 off a cliff?

Sorry for the long post but it's a complicated problem. Any advice would be gratefully received.

Many thanks

Brett

[Ernst Dinkla]

So my 24" Z3200 PS has a problem whereby certain colours print incorrectly - Notably MK-R but also Green. They lack saturation and appear faded. Especially on certain papers such as HP Matte Litho Realistic. Sometimes on a diagnostic print they won't print at all. I am also regularly instructed to reseat the MK-R printhead. If I switch the machine off and on again the printhead no longer needs to be reseated. After a huge process of elimination (replacing inks and printheads, cleaning printhead contacts, running diagnostics and finding high DeltaE readings, cleaning the colour spectrophotometer etc) I replaced the spectrophotometer. It was an educated gamble. It has not cured the problem.

Now when I run a diagnostic of the spectro it passes with a Maximum DeltaE of 3.724. However if I run a diagnostic of the Carriage Assembly the test fails on several things - including the ESP with a 58:11 'DeltaE out of limits'. The ESP is correctly seated. The Carriage assembly also fails on a PCA rev of 2.313 (apparently the value should fall between 0.823 and 1.005). Also the carriage voltage (+VS) should read between 43.6 and 46.3. Mine is 32.355.

Today the machine is insisting I replace various printheads. I replaced one (E-G) and then it said a different one needed replacing plus E-G needs replacing again - with the printhead not an hour old.

I thought I'd calibrate the line sensor too, seeing as it is part of the carriage assembly and connects to the carriage PCA. That failed too.

I don't believe that all of these individual parts can be at fault. They are all part of the Carriage Assembly and connect to the Carriage PCA. I'm ready to replace the assembly, in the hope that the problem will be solved for good. Or is the Carriage PCA sufficient? Or is it time to push my lightly used z3200 off a cliff?

Sorry for the long post but it's a complicated problem. Any advice would be gratefully received.

Many thanks

Brett

Could the ribbon cables to the head carriage be on their last legs? Too much resistance in a wire that has several threads broken?  I do not experience the same what you see but here the ribbon cables do not bend and run that elegant anymore on my printer and make more noise so I fear that they will wear faster. Any sign of that on your printer?

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

[Brett L]

Could the ribbon cables to the head carriage be on their last legs? Too much resistance in a wire that has several threads broken?  I do not experience the same what you see but here the ribbon cables do not bend and run that elegant anymore on my printer and make more noise so I fear that they will wear faster. Any sign of that on your printer?

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Hi Ernst,

I also wondered if it might be the trailing cable but it seems pretty flexible and in good condition. Although I've owned the machine since 2011 it has really only had light use and so wear is less than you'd normally expect. I am pretty stumped as to the best way forward. Maybe I should consider replacing the cable as a process of elimination? Though I'd rather not have to unless I'm sure.

Many thanks

Brett

https://www.Whose-Art.com

[deanwork]

Did you try removing the formatter board on the top back of the printer and replacing that battery?

I had my carriage unit replaced on my 12 year old z3100 when the tech damaged the old one when replacing the belt and this thing now runs and makes profiles like a brand new printer. Seriously . But I would check for any loose or damaged cable connections.

Can we still get new parts for these machines?

I found a source for the HP synthetic oil at a very reasonable price -

http://www.partshere.com/online/detail.asp?partno=6040-0855&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3smABhCjARIsAKtrg6JYQgDgve4ga7vLRFLn0EkRRipG7OkbXtHVoIwnUnHqXjgDUu4TciYaApKmEALw_wcB

John

Hi Ernst,

I also wondered if it might be the trailing cable but it seems pretty flexible and in good condition. Although I've owned the machine since 2011 it has really only had light use and so wear is less than you'd normally expect. I am pretty stumped as to the best way forward. Maybe I should consider replacing the cable as a process of elimination? Though I'd rather not have to unless I'm sure.

Many thanks

Brett

https://www.Whose-Art.com

[Mark Lindquist]

Hi Brett,
I understand you've done seemingly all there is to do. One of the mistakes Z3200-ists do is just start replacing parts. This can cause problems that aren't there.

I don't know how old your inks and print heads are, but they need to be at least 1/2 full or more for force reseat.

This is HP's approach in almost every instance:

Get carriage to move, (just open and close the cover) pull the plug from behind (and the LAN cable), move carriage to the spot where the printhead door can be opened. Pull all printheads, then all cartridges.

Good idea to either at this point, put all new printheads in, and all new cartridges. (If you buy from HP, they are required to do support if they don't work)

If you have old expired cartridges, if you have minimally half to 75% full - good idea to bag and shake for a good long time.

Making sure the power switch is off, plug in the printer. Do not plug the lan cable in until the printer is completely working.

Power on. The printer will see there are no printheads, no cartridges and it thinks it is initializing for the first time.

It will tell you to install the cartridges one by one. Do so.

Next it will ask for the printheads, install them.

Let it go through the entire initialization and have a 24" wide glossy sheet or some glossy 24" wide paper ready to load.

If you get this far, often it will ask to do a head alignment.

If so, do that.  See what happens.

Often this just works.  This is the first action anyone should take when encountering any serious issue that is undiagnosed or mis-diagnosed.

Rather than doing a diagnostic print, just first run a known print and see how it looks.

If there are problems, then go to the diagnostic print.

After this, if problems still persist, again check your error codes and start trouble shooting again.

Hope this helps, I imagine you've done a variation of this, but perhaps try this in this sequence.

Best,

Mark

[Brett L]

Did you try removing the formatter board on the top back of the printer and replacing that battery?

I had my carriage unit replaced on my 12 year old z3100 when the tech damaged the old one when replacing the belt and this thing now runs and makes profiles like a brand new printer. Seriously . But I would check for any loose or damaged cable connections.

Can we still get new parts for these machines?

I found a source for the HP synthetic oil at a very reasonable price -

http://www.partshere.com/online/detail.asp?partno=6040-0855&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3smABhCjARIsAKtrg6JYQgDgve4ga7vLRFLn0EkRRipG7OkbXtHVoIwnUnHqXjgDUu4TciYaApKmEALw_wcB

John

Many thanks John. I have taken your advice and renewed the battery in the formatter board. Cables and connections all seem fine. At least it's encouraging to hear that if I do replace the carriage assembly it may bring all sorts of other improvements too. As of yet the colour issues (namely with MK) remain.

Thanks

Brett

https://Whose-Art.com

[Brett L]

Hi Brett,
I understand you've done seemingly all there is to do. One of the mistakes Z3200-ists do is just start replacing parts. This can cause problems that aren't there.

I don't know how old your inks and print heads are, but they need to be at least 1/2 full or more for force reseat.

This is HP's approach in almost every instance:

Get carriage to move, (just open and close the cover) pull the plug from behind (and the LAN cable), move carriage to the spot where the printhead door can be opened. Pull all printheads, then all cartridges.

Good idea to either at this point, put all new printheads in, and all new cartridges. (If you buy from HP, they are required to do support if they don't work)

If you have old expired cartridges, if you have minimally half to 75% full - good idea to bag and shake for a good long time.

Making sure the power switch is off, plug in the printer. Do not plug the lan cable in until the printer is completely working.

Power on. The printer will see there are no printheads, no cartridges and it thinks it is initializing for the first time.

It will tell you to install the cartridges one by one. Do so.

Next it will ask for the printheads, install them.

Let it go through the entire initialization and have a 24" wide glossy sheet or some glossy 24" wide paper ready to load.

If you get this far, often it will ask to do a head alignment.

If so, do that.  See what happens.

Often this just works.  This is the first action anyone should take when encountering any serious issue that is undiagnosed or mis-diagnosed.

Rather than doing a diagnostic print, just first run a known print and see how it looks.

If there are problems, then go to the diagnostic print.

After this, if problems still persist, again check your error codes and start trouble shooting again.

Hope this helps, I imagine you've done a variation of this, but perhaps try this in this sequence.

Best,

Mark

Hi Mark

Many thanks for this.

I have done exactly as you suggest and it has certainly cured the machine from requesting new printheads. All of those messages have disappeared.

The colours have improved too (in terms of saturation). I was having an issue with Green and that has now been resolved. So that's great.

Unfortunately the original problem that started it all off still remains.

MK seems to be less saturated than it used to be and image quality is affected. There's no issue with blockage as it prints very black at the bottom of the diagnostic image (where the lines are located). It's just on the larger patch at the top of the diagnostic sheet that the colour appears more grey than black.

Again I sometimes randomly get a message to reseat the MK-R printhead when switching the machine on.

The printhead is new but the problem occurred with the previous printhead too. MK and R cartridges have also been recently replaced but this hasn't helped.

I've also updated the paper calibration but this has had no impact.

I have just run a diagnostic on the colour sensor. It passed. When I then ran a diagnostic on the carriage assembly it failed on the colour sensor (as well as a couple of voltage issues) - I have attached some photos.

Is it possible that this could be the carriage PCA?

I have checked cables and connections etc and they seem fine. I am able to get a whole carriage assembly and trailing cable new on eBay (from China) at a price that isn't prohibitive.

I'm very tempted to go down this road, in the hope I can move on. However if there are other things I should be trying then I'm keen to do so. I'd be really grateful for any thoughts.

Many thanks

Brett

https://Whose-Art.com

[sportmaster]

"One of the mistakes Z3200-ists do is just start replacing parts."   Guilty.

[Brett L]

If you need to replace your carriage assembly it is cheaper to buy individual parts rather than the whole unit.  The main housing should be ok. 

I changed my carriage PCA board, trailing cable and the ribbon cable assembly from printheads to the PCA.  The hardest part was connecting ribbon cables in the confined space.

LPS is a great source from parts and advice.

Thanks for this. What sort of symptoms was your Designjet suffering that made you change those parts? Were you getting a specific fault code or were you going through a process of elimination?

Were your issues resolved as a result?

I'm looking for a crumb of comfort from a success story!

Many thanks,

Brett

https://Whose-Art.com

[kers]

If i have a problem with ink- like you with mk- i make an image in photosop with that colour and make some prints to see if that helps

[Brett L]

So I’m perilously close to the dreaded “swapping out parts” moment.

Before I’m forced down that road, I was wondering if there are any other secret startup/reboot/magic-HP-fairy-dust ways of getting this Z3200 to fire on all cylinders?

Removing all of the printheads & cartridges prior to start up has definitely fixed the problem with Green. However the MK issue remains.

Strangely, if I produce a test swatch purely of black in Photoshop it prints well. However as soon as I print the diagnostic image or a more complex image (that has previously printed perfectly), the black lacks saturation.

Is it possible to uninstall and reinstall the firmware?

Also am I right in thinking that restarting the printer with the formatter board removed, as well as the printheads & cartridges, will help the Z3200 relax and get it right? Or would that be like removing its heart?

I have no desire to commit an act of Designjet murder...yet...

Any thoughts very welcome!

Many thanks

Brett

https://Whose-Art.com

[GST]

Can you post a picture of that diagnostic image?

[Brett L]

Can you post a picture of that diagnostic image?

Right, I start with immediate apologies for the lamentable quality of the photos! But I had to use my phone and shadows etc played havoc. Hence the strange angles...

In the first photo (with two diagnostic charts), the chart on the left shows MK the way it looks on my Z3200 when functioning properly. The chart on the right shows the current status. Hopefully you can see that, on the right, the MK is more grey than black. If you look at the bottom of the diagrams you can see that, on the faulty chart, a richer black is printed for the MK when showing whether the head needs cleaning. So it is capable of printing the rich blacks. It just appears to be refusing when it counts.

The second photo shows a freak recent occurrence whereby MK-R was omitted from the diagnostic image altogether (which makes me wonder if it's a carriage PCA or even a firmware issue?). I restarted the machine and the problem didn't repeat. However MK-R is the baby that I'm often asked to randomly reseat (it's brand new and well within warranty/expiry - though I had the same issue with the previous printhead).

Photos 3 and 4 are not accurate in terms of the actual colours in the photo (they don't reflect what the images are really like). However hopefully you can see where darks are present in image 3 that aren't present in image 4. Especially if you look at the darks on the horses. Image 3 was printed when the machine functioned properly. Image 4 is the current effort. The differences between the two images are far more noticeable in the flesh.

I realise it's pretty shameless of me to post such shockingly low quality photos on such a prestigious forum. Sadly it's the best I could offer under the circumstances. I apologise unreservedly!

Any thoughts/suggestions (not on my photography skills) would be enthusiastically received.

Many thanks

Brett

https://whose-art.com

[deanwork]

That is some strange stuff. I haven’t followed the whole thread, but did you remove all the designjet software and reinstall?

Right, I start with immediate apologies for the lamentable quality of the photos! But I had to use my phone and shadows etc played havoc. Hence the strange angles...

In the first photo (with two diagnostic charts), the chart on the left shows MK the way it looks on my Z3200 when functioning properly. The chart on the right shows the current status. Hopefully you can see that, on the right, the MK is more grey than black. If you look at the bottom of the diagrams you can see that, on the faulty chart, a richer black is printed for the MK when showing whether the head needs cleaning. So it is capable of printing the rich blacks. It just appears to be refusing when it counts.

The second photo shows a freak recent occurrence whereby MK-R was omitted from the diagnostic image altogether (which makes me wonder if it's a carriage PCA or even a firmware issue?). I restarted the machine and the problem didn't repeat. However MK-R is the baby that I'm often asked to randomly reseat (it's brand new and well within warranty/expiry - though I had the same issue with the previous printhead).

Photos 3 and 4 are not accurate in terms of the actual colours in the photo (they don't reflect what the images are really like). However hopefully you can see where darks are present in image 3 that aren't present in image 4. Especially if you look at the darks on the horses. Image 3 was printed when the machine functioned properly. Image 4 is the current effort. The differences between the two images are far more noticeable in the flesh.

I realise it's pretty shameless of me to post such shockingly low quality photos on such a prestigious forum. Sadly it's the best I could offer under the circumstances. I apologise unreservedly!

Any thoughts/suggestions (not on my photography skills) would be enthusiastically received.

Many thanks

Brett

https://whose-art.com

[GST]

Good thing about the diagnostic stuff, there is no driver or software involved.
Talking about the first diagnostic images, it looks as if not only the MK black but also the red suffers a bit? Or is this just because of the Photo?
Very odd: on the left diagnostic the MK shows some missing droplets while on the (less saturated) right it looks perfect?
Hoping for some experts to chime in ...

regards
Gernot

[Brett L]

That is some strange stuff. I haven’t followed the whole thread, but did you remove all the designjet software and reinstall?

I have removed and reinstalled the drivers etc. In the past when I've had colour reproduction issues, a firmware update has done the trick. Obviously nowadays there are no firmware updates and I can't see how to uninstall and reinstall firmware.

[Brett L]

Good thing about the diagnostic stuff, there is no driver or software involved.
Talking about the first diagnostic images, it looks as if not only the MK black but also the red suffers a bit? Or is this just because of the Photo?
Very odd: on the left diagnostic the MK shows some missing droplets while on the (less saturated) right it looks perfect?
Hoping for some experts to chime in ...

regards
Gernot

You're quite right, Gernot the red is affected too. It's just that the MK is so noticeable that I'm kind of obsessing with it.

And yes, the diagnostic on the right shows no droplets missing.

I have repeatedly cleaned all contacts and connections for the MK-R. The mystery continues...

Many thanks

Brett

https://whose-art.com

[Mark Lindquist]

Brett,

Please list in order the inks, how much is in each cartridge and the expiration date.

Same thing, please list the expiration date of all printheads.

Looking at your diagnostic chart, it looks like you have a bad MK/R printhead.

You say it's brand new.  You can call HP and they should send you a new one.

It's not uncommon, unfortunately, for current printheads to be less than perfect these days. (Go figure).

I admire your stick-to-it-ness.  Keep on, you'll get there one way or another.

If you have an earlier firmware, you can reinstall it.  But... you should have both the current one and the previous or earlier one.

What OS are you using?

Best,

Mark

[Brett L]

Brett,

Please list in order the inks, how much is in each cartridge and the expiration date.

Same thing, please list the expiration date of all printheads.

Looking at your diagnostic chart, it looks like you have a bad MK/R printhead.

You say it's brand new.  You can call HP and they should send you a new one.

It's not uncommon, unfortunately, for current printheads to be less than perfect these days. (Go figure).

I admire your stick-to-it-ness.  Keep on, you'll get there one way or another.

If you have an earlier firmware, you can reinstall it.  But... you should have both the current one and the previous or earlier one.

What OS are you using?

Best,

Mark

Mark,

I feel a bit like a guilty student summoned to the Principal's office - and not without reason!  I buy my consumables in bulk and then they sit until required. So I'm definitely using expired inks etc. Though I must admit, I have been told many times that the ink expiry date isn't an issue? That's why I've happily gone down that route.

In terms of the ink levels: This problem has been ongoing since late November. So a lot of test images and diagnostics have been printed in the meantime. I mean loads. So the inks have all at some stage been 80% or more whilst the problem has been ongoing. Some have been replaced in that time.

I totally agree about the MK-R printhead appearing faulty. It's only the fact that I changed the printhead in the hope that it might fix the issue, that makes me think that's not the problem. I had exactly the same issues with the previous printhead. Having said that, i'm going to get it replaced under warranty anyway as a precaution. Plus it's been reseated so many times that the little blue handle has broken off!

Anyway, here is all the requested information. The printer has worked faultlessly before with inks etc that have expired by similar margins. So I'm hoping this isn't the problem. However I carry spares of all inks (sadly, many expired by now) so can replace any in an instant.

OS:

Mac 10.11.6 (El Capitan)
Mac 10.14.4 (Mojave)

Same issue with either OS - two different computers.

Firmware:

TR12-RB_15.0.0.2

Product: Q6720A

Inks:

All inks have been installed within the last 12 months (from sealed packaging), regardless of expiry date.

E. April 2017. 45%
G. August 2020 50%
B. April 2011 49% - That looks old even to me. I can replace it with a newer one if you think it would help?
GN. May 2015 92%
M. March 2014 66%
Y. Oct 2017 55%

LM. Sept 2014 62%
LC. June 2011 40% - Again perhaps worth a swap?
PK. Sept 2020 57%
LG. Dec 2021 18%
MK. March 2016 22% - This was old stock which I installed after the fault developed, in the hope it would fix things. So I've used 78% on tests!! It does seem to be thirsty. I have another with exp of March 2020 which I can replace it with again straight away?
R. June 2015 26% - Again this has been installed after the fault developed (replacing a newer cartridge) in the hope it might fix things. It's used 74% on test images. Again that seems to be using up ink more quickly than the others.

Printheads:

E-G: Feb 2017 (installed in the last week or so)
B-GN: Jan 2018 (installed after the fault had developed)
M-Y: May 2022
LM-LC: March 2021
PB-LG: Sept 2018
MK-R: June 2021 (purchased and installed in December 2020 - after the fault had developed)

The only other fact that may be relevant is that I have owned this printer since new (March 2011) and didn't actually know how important it is to keep it switched on at all times until about 3 years ago. So it's been on constantly for the last 3 years but for the previous 7 years it was on and off for varying periods. Only genuine HP products have ever been used.

All is laid bare, Mark! Please go easy on me...

Many thanks,

Brett

[GST]

I´m using mostly expired inks and old printheads, way older than yours. I cant imagine this to be causing color shifts.
Were you able to calibrate some papers in this state? This should either fix it or fail completely.