High volume small pigment print production?

[Richard.Wills]

We regularly get asked for small prints, particularly with our film scanning service, but also for sets of work prints for photographers and artists. I've been looking at something like the Fuji DX100 as a starting point, but this is "just" a dye printer. Around 10-15% of processing and scanning orders request prints, so I'm looking at ITRO 1-300 6/8/10" prints. Occassionally I'll run these for good clients on  our Canon 8400, often on Canson Prestige Baryta, HPR of IFA24. It is a PITA to trim these out from a 17 or 24" roll, first with a scalpel, then with an old, but clean 30" rotatrim.

I think the Fuji is Epson based, and the print longevity probably isn't terrible, but I'm looking to create an option that turns into the legacy print - the box of prints in a (acid free) shoebox or album that gets passed on, and has a chance to exist long after facebook's servers have stopped running. If the DX has accepable dark storage qualities, then this makes an easily scalable option.

Other lines of thought include a dedicated 17/24" modern pigment machine, and something like the fotoba digiprint cutter. This would be a much larger investment. We currently don't have the budget for one of the larger Epson Drylabs (dye based, but I've seen great results). Another option would be to get a newer Rotatrim technical, for which they make a production stop fitting, though I suspect I'd have almost as much success using an LED strip below the cutting edge.

Or find someone smarter than me to combine the stop control of https://www.duckafterduck.com/blog/how-to-make-a-lidar-driven-motorized-film-carrier with a motorised rotary cutter...

Or bite the test bullet, take in the orders to confirm business is there, and slave over the 10A's at the beginning. I'm running the Canon through a reasonable rip, so can gang the print orders up very easily on not too wide rolls. If the volume is there (and I think it is), then automate? Currently most of the staff are WfH or fuloughed, so I don't have a huge excess of bodies to help, but then, the volume of exhibitions we're producing is currently 1/T5th of normal.

I'm not looking for this to be a cheap service option, but don't have the space time budget to go for an RA4 or wet B&W laser service.
 

[mearussi]

How about a Pro 1000 and precut 4x6 and 5x7 paper?

[Panagiotis]

I am in a similar situation. I get asked regularly for test/work prints at small sizes 13X19,5 cm etc. I have a PRO-1000 and a PRO-4000. It is impossible to match the price of the drylabs. The solution for me until know is a cheap decent semigloss noname 190gsm 44" paper roll printed with Qimage on the PRO-4000 and cut on a mat with a 4 feet straight edge. I 've done it so many times that I am amazed by myself  of how fast I can do it . I wish for an Epson SureLab SL-D800 for which unfortunately I know nothing about it's BW capability.

[MichaelKoerner]

Have you considered Imageprint's cut-it-out w/Graphtec? Could be cheaper than a Fotoba solution. But - you already have a rip, so... Just my two cents.

Btw: This vendor in Germany offers Epson Surelab stations per leasing

[Richard.Wills]

I don't think pre-cut sheets will work for the volume, though I'll look in to it.

No-name materials aren't the segment I'm looking at - I need to have a certain faith in the product I'm producing.  I can rip down sheets faster from 24 or 17" than I can from 44"

The DL3000 - a friend had one, which I profiled, and the result was amazingly good, B&W was very neutral, but it's a dye machine, and damnedly expensive. I believe it's same ink/tech as the Fuji, and one minilab tech I spoke with rated the Fuji DX100 over the SL800 for reliability... I know the DX100 / SL800 are designed to do most of what I want, stackable and modular and that makes a lot of sense. Am I kidding myself about the benefit of pigment inks?

I've looked at the Imageprint / Graphtec combo. It's pounce cut, rather than clean cut, so there would be tails at least on the  corners. Haven't priced it against the Fotoba.

I've used a few rips over the years - proof master, ImagePrint, EFi Express, as well as the mindnumbing production software that is EZ controller from Noritsu, which was a £1200 add on to the film scanner, and worth every penny and grey hair.

My suspicion is that I'll go with a little drylab for gloss, lustre, and possibly IFA24 (which is like a no OBA Epson enhanced matt, and relatively dust free) and initially the 8400 for the premium options. After the first 500 baby prints from the 8400, I'll upgrade the Rotatrim, if I haven't gone further in the madness. I'll also reach out to the UK Fotoba distributors, to see how it handles fragile media.

What I'd really love is a 17" Z9 DR with multiple V cutters. DR, to reverse the roll of the papers, as well as work the profiles, flawless software, and a foot massage.

[Panagiotis]

I don't think pre-cut sheets will work for the volume, though I'll look in to it.

No-name materials aren't the segment I'm looking at - I need to have a certain faith in the product I'm producing.  I can rip down sheets faster from 24 or 17" than I can from 44"

The DL3000 - a friend had one, which I profiled, and the result was amazingly good, B&W was very neutral, but it's a dye machine, and damnedly expensive. I believe it's same ink/tech as the Fuji, and one minilab tech I spoke with rated the Fuji DX100 over the SL800 for reliability... I know the DX100 / SL800 are designed to do most of what I want, stackable and modular and that makes a lot of sense. Am I kidding myself about the benefit of pigment inks?

I've looked at the Imageprint / Graphtec combo. It's pounce cut, rather than clean cut, so there would be tails at least on the  corners. Haven't priced it against the Fotoba.

I've used a few rips over the years - proof master, ImagePrint, EFi Express, as well as the mindnumbing production software that is EZ controller from Noritsu, which was a £1200 add on to the film scanner, and worth every penny and grey hair.

My suspicion is that I'll go with a little drylab for gloss, lustre, and possibly IFA24 (which is like a no OBA Epson enhanced matt, and relatively dust free) and initially the 8400 for the premium options. After the first 500 baby prints from the 8400, I'll upgrade the Rotatrim, if I haven't gone further in the madness. I'll also reach out to the UK Fotoba distributors, to see how it handles fragile media.

What I'd really love is a 17" Z9 DR with multiple V cutters. DR, to reverse the roll of the papers, as well as work the profiles, flawless software, and a foot massage.

If you print for a portfolio box aren't cut sheets better due to the fact that they are flat?

I was also in doubt about the quality of the the no name luster paper but it end up to print beautifully. It is the only way for me to keep the cost as low as possible for the pigments printers.

Good to know that the SL-D3000 prints nice BW but I believe that is discontinued. Is the inkset the same for SL-D800?

How to do plan to print IFA-24 with the drylab? Are there Innova rolls at that size?

The Z9 second roll doesn't have the ability to act as a take up reel in order to decurl the paper. But I am not sure.

[Richard.Wills]

Roll curl is certainly an issue that I'll need to address. I have pretty good luck on larger, or strips of prints with a heavy roll of brown craft paper, but that obviously won't wiork with individual small prints.

I will have a lok at some of the lesser name papers - I've had amazing results from Fuji matt bond, and even Epson singleweight matt (though, I wouldn't rate either of them for long term performance).

I think the inkset on the DL800 is from the same family, so with profiling, I'm sure there is an option for clean printing.

The IFA24 is something I use in larger rolls - there are supplies of small rolls of other matt materials - I'll have a look at spectrumviz when I'm back in the office. If there's nothing suitable, I'll consider getting a fine tooth blade for the chop saw.

It might have been the dual roll canon, or even one of the solvent printers I've been looking at for other projects, that had the option of rolling print face in. Given that the Z9 doesn't seem to exist in a 17" version, my chances of a foot massage seem minimal.

[mearussi]

If money were no object I'd buy the Epson P5000, which can hold dozen of cut sheets at once, and then put them through the Fotoba Digaprint 20. Unfortunately for me, Fotoba is not imported into the U.S. but you might check it out.

[Richard.Wills]

Not such a bad idea - I'll play with layouts tomorrow for cut sheet, but I don't think I'll see 36-40 prints very sensibly from A2 or 17x22. Switching out stacks of matt/lustre/gloss paper wouldn't feel terribly efficient, but a suitable paper rack could be built to accomodate.

If I could find a digitrim second hand, then I could start out with the 8400, using thinner papers (less curl). Equally, I think there is the potential to take over part one of my tables, to build a series of production stops (T-slots?) for a good new rotatrim (£500 vs £4k+). I'd favour the Fotoba!

If money were no object, I'd have me some assistants again. And the toys.

[deanwork]

The new HPZ9+ comes with both a horizontal and a vertical cutter. It’s supposed to work well.
I assume this is designed for production pigment printing, especially small prints.

When I do small prints in editions of hundreds, it takes me four times longer to trim and flatten the work than to set it up, test it, and print it.

John



quote author=Richard.Wills link=topic=137346.msg1204333#msg1204333 date=1610660212]
Not such a bad idea - I'll play with layouts tomorrow for cut sheet, but I don't think I'll see 36-40 prints very sensibly from A2 or 17x22. Switching out stacks of matt/lustre/gloss paper wouldn't feel terribly efficient, but a suitable paper rack could be built to accomodate.

If I could find a digitrim second hand, then I could start out with the 8400, using thinner papers (less curl). Equally, I think there is the potential to take over part one of my tables, to build a series of production stops (T-slots?) for a good new rotatrim (£500 vs £4k+). I'd favour the Fotoba!

If money were no object, I'd have me some assistants again. And the toys.
[/quote]

[Richard.Wills]

The new HPZ9+ comes with both a horizontal and a vertical cutter. It’s supposed to work well.
I assume this is designed for production pigment printing, especially small prints.

When I do small prints in editions of hundreds, it takes me four times longer to trim and flatten the work than to set it up, test it, and print it.

John

I think four times is an understatement! The post production is the killer.

[mearussi]

Not such a bad idea - I'll play with layouts tomorrow for cut sheet, but I don't think I'll see 36-40 prints very sensibly from A2 or 17x22. Switching out stacks of matt/lustre/gloss paper wouldn't feel terribly efficient, but a suitable paper rack could be built to accomodate.

If I could find a digitrim second hand, then I could start out with the 8400, using thinner papers (less curl). Equally, I think there is the potential to take over part one of my tables, to build a series of production stops (T-slots?) for a good new rotatrim (£500 vs £4k+). I'd favour the Fotoba!

If money were no object, I'd have me some assistants again. And the toys.

Or back to my original idea of a small printer that will print full bleed single sheet 4x6 and 5x7.

P900 specs:
Main Top-loading Up to 17" x 22"; up to 120 sheets plain paper, 30 sheets photo paper, and single sheet loading of thicker fine art paper
Front Media Path Up to 17" x 22"; single sheet manual feeder, designed for thicker papers up to 1.5 mm thick
BorderFree Print Widths:
3.5" x 5", 4" x 6", 5" x 7", 8" x 10", A4 (8.3" x 11.7"), letter (8.5" x 11"), 11" x 14", B (11" x 17"), A3 (11.7" x 16.5"), Super B (13" x 19"), 16" x 20" and C (17"x 22")

[Ernst Dinkla]

We regularly get asked for small prints, particularly with our film scanning service, but also for sets of work prints for photographers and artists. I've been looking at something like the Fuji DX100 as a starting point, but this is "just" a dye printer. Around 10-15% of processing and scanning orders request prints, so I'm looking at ITRO 1-300 6/8/10" prints. Occassionally I'll run these for good clients on  our Canon 8400, often on Canson Prestige Baryta, HPR of IFA24. It is a PITA to trim these out from a 17 or 24" roll, first with a scalpel, then with an old, but clean 30" rotatrim.

I think the Fuji is Epson based, and the print longevity probably isn't terrible, but I'm looking to create an option that turns into the legacy print - the box of prints in a (acid free) shoebox or album that gets passed on, and has a chance to exist long after facebook's servers have stopped running. If the DX has accepable dark storage qualities, then this makes an easily scalable option.

Other lines of thought include a dedicated 17/24" modern pigment machine, and something like the fotoba digiprint cutter. This would be a much larger investment. We currently don't have the budget for one of the larger Epson Drylabs (dye based, but I've seen great results). Another option would be to get a newer Rotatrim technical, for which they make a production stop fitting, though I suspect I'd have almost as much success using an LED strip below the cutting edge.

Or find someone smarter than me to combine the stop control of https://www.duckafterduck.com/blog/how-to-make-a-lidar-driven-motorized-film-carrier with a motorised rotary cutter...

Or bite the test bullet, take in the orders to confirm business is there, and slave over the 10A's at the beginning. I'm running the Canon through a reasonable rip, so can gang the print orders up very easily on not too wide rolls. If the volume is there (and I think it is), then automate? Currently most of the staff are WfH or fuloughed, so I don't have a huge excess of bodies to help, but then, the volume of exhibitions we're producing is currently 1/T5th of normal.

I'm not looking for this to be a cheap service option, but don't have the space time budget to go for an RA4 or wet B&W laser service.
 

I wonder whether your customers can cope with a standard A3+, A3 or A4 size. You could deliver an inexpensive Chinese roll cutter with the first order if they need a custom size.  Innova IFA24 is available in sheets, 210 gr/m², the two sided IFA25 220 gr/m² only in sheets.

HP Pagewide Pro Officejets are available from A4 to A3+. 4 color pigment ink inkjet. Quit a straight media path through the printer, should handle up to 220gr/m² stacks, 300 gr/m² as single sheets. Auto dual print.  I have no experience what the print quality is but at the highest print quality the Pagewide models are still fast.

I had something else in mind with the Pagewide printers but my age starts to count.

Forgotten what I intended to write at the top first of all: There's is no dry minilab nearby to make a deal with?


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[mearussi]

Another option: http://www.ronmartblog.com/
review of Epson Surelab D870

[Richard.Wills]

I do like the idea of subbing the cutting out to the customer - I suspect that a proportion of the client base already have rotary trimmers.

I find the IFA24 to be a remarkably compliant material - straight from the roll, it has very little memory - and then cut down to around A3, and into an envelope for those collecting, a tube foir those when the post around us restarts. The advantage from my end is that I can create a hot folder in the rip, and just drop rolls onto it, with the sheet size being whatever I choose, and the rip can layout, and name each sheet. The Noritsu software could send the files, or I could export from LR, which is what I currently do for scan only (image rotation, quick grading etc).

The pagewide looks interesting, but I have trouble believing that the quality in this generation would match. I'll see if any of the local dealers have one that they would be prepared to run tests on. Even then, I don't have any data to say that the print life exceeds dye prints.

I'll pick up a small roll of the IFA24 next week, and time production. If that looks promising, then I'll try to plot the next part of the path.

Thank you all who have contributed thus far.

[Richard.Wills]

Another option: http://www.ronmartblog.com/
review of Epson Surelab D870

Interesting read, and very much describes what I'm trying to produce, all be it at a cost that covers my time, and addresses the multigenerational time scale.

Or perhaps I'm over thinking things, and as good, or slightly better than C-types is better than a future digital vacuum.

[Ernst Dinkla]

I do like the idea of subbing the cutting out to the customer - I suspect that a proportion of the client base already have rotary trimmers.

Another solution on the paper cutting could be a roller die cutting machine. They come in many shapes, sizes and prices. If you can find one that can use standard lasered plywood + metal band dies, the price of the dies is not that high. You can design them in Illustrator for example and export a DXF file for the die maker.

 

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

[Richard.Wills]

I cut some vinyls today on our Graphtec CE6000 (mask signs...). Not enough to bother webbing up the laminator, so laid the application tape down on a small (600x800) cutting matt, and squegeed (sp) the vinyl facedown. Used the cutting matt so I could rotate the sheets around, to speed up the trimming out. I'd forgotten that when you use a scalpel on a cutting mat, the edges of the paper bed down, in to the cutting path. Our graphtec is a European model, that has the option to do perf or die cut, so now my thoughts are sliding towards trying plotter, using the cutting mat as a carrier board. 18 6x4's fits onto a 610 x 750mm sheet (with room for the registration marks, to use cutting master).

Thanks Ernst, it was looking at a couple of videos of roller die cutting, that led me to start rethinking this. Given that some of the photographic inkjet papers are pretty tough on blades, I'll start out with a sandblast blade that came with the cutter. Just need to make the cutting templates in illustrator, transpose the positioning to EFi Express, rig up a feed in and out table for the cutter and... Hope.

And thanks Michael, I shouldn't have dismissed the Graphtec/Imageprint combo, but rather, embraced it. My version of EFi doesn't have cut control, but I think I can make a way to place the crop marks, based on a standard set of templates.

Or just get a Surelab...

[MichaelKoerner]

Having reread this very interesting thread this morning, here some additional cents:

First: I assume, our clients look for outstanding quality.  Surelab/Fuji is dye. Marc from Aardenburg did tests on Fuji some time ago: Between 17 and 43 MegaLux, depending on media. Not sure whether that has changed in the meantime. Not to forget the high amount of OBAs.
 
2. I have a deal with a very good wet lab for small prints. I can rely on their quality 100%, and that is what my customers want. They pay me the lab's price + my manipulating fee and are happy. I am not afraid to loose them to that lab - customers come to me for quality, advice, image manipulation/optimization, not for cheap prizes.

3. I own a P800. More than 5 small pre cut papers (< A5) often cause troubles, so I have to babysit such jobs. Could be the same issue with new P700/900...

4. AFAIK (from the manual) you can change hanger space & -size in cut-it-out. I'd call Imageprint to be sure, but in my understanding, if you put a slim roll into the graphtec with just one column of images on it, perhaps one could reduce hanger size to zero. Having a Graphtec and Imageprint at hand (don't you?), this could be the easiest solution.

Best regards, Michael

[Ernst Dinkla]

I cut some vinyls today on our Graphtec CE6000 (mask signs...). Not enough to bother webbing up the laminator, so laid the application tape down on a small (600x800) cutting matt, and squegeed (sp) the vinyl facedown. Used the cutting matt so I could rotate the sheets around, to speed up the trimming out. I'd forgotten that when you use a scalpel on a cutting mat, the edges of the paper bed down, in to the cutting path. Our graphtec is a European model, that has the option to do perf or die cut, so now my thoughts are sliding towards trying plotter, using the cutting mat as a carrier board. 18 6x4's fits onto a 610 x 750mm sheet (with room for the registration marks, to use cutting master).

Thanks Ernst, it was looking at a couple of videos of roller die cutting, that led me to start rethinking this. Given that some of the photographic inkjet papers are pretty tough on blades, I'll start out with a sandblast blade that came with the cutter. Just need to make the cutting templates in illustrator, transpose the positioning to EFi Express, rig up a feed in and out table for the cutter and... Hope.

And thanks Michael, I shouldn't have dismissed the Graphtec/Imageprint combo, but rather, embraced it. My version of EFi doesn't have cut control, but I think I can make a way to place the crop marks, based on a standard set of templates.

Or just get a Surelab...

A Houston DMC100 cutting plotter here, tangential knife. An old one but hardly used over time. I mainly used it for cutting silkscreen masks, red gelatine layer on PET foil. With an added table with register tabs also small  runs of stickers where die cutting was not economic.
I also thought you would need a blade for cutting sandblast foil, the minerals on the paper surface could be abrasive.  The other problem might be in RC papers where you also have to cut the PE foil at the back.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken