Photoshop CS3 - what does it seem to offer...

[revneil]

Looking at CS3, AKA Photoshop 9, I can only see a very few benefits for upgrading.  Yes, merging images, better B/W conversion etc, but ...

The new ACR machine is derived from the buyout of Pixmantec's Rawshhoter software that is also being integrated with Lightroom.  Curiously, at this stage, Adobe have not quite married the two up viz Lightroom and Photoshop!

What  does seem to me is a possible market try out of some very important new techniques that so many of us hope might be incorporated into Lightroom.  

Most importantly is the introduction of Smart Filters.  Non-destructive use of Filters.  This philosophy is at the base of the Lightroom experience and its coming into PS shows that Adobe may be committed to this type of editing for the future.  I really welcome it.

One wonders if, has been mooted elsewhere, that the end of the road for PS is now in sight.  For so long it has been the de facto for image editing and yet has also been trying to be so many things to so many different groups.  The whole idea of PS being part of CS tells its own tale.

A clear delineation between photographer's needs and those of the broader spectrum of the design community are clearly needed.  

A programme that is aimed fairly and squarely at the photographic community that can work with all the plugins etc. offered over recent years by many third party companies - that have mostly been aimed at photographers - can be the only answer.

Lightroom does seem to be the answer so long as it can deliver the range and creativity that photographers can take advantage of ~ but  can we anticipate receiving the advantages that CS3 seems to herald in Lightroom's first release, or are we destined to have to wait a couple of years whilst Adobe sort out their marketing and so leave us in a sort of limbo?

The challenge seems to me to be to Adobe ~ to finally differentiate their market segments and thus provide for each the best products they can - which we all know would be the very best.

[Schewe]

Looking at CS3, AKA Photoshop 9, I can only see a very few benefits for upgrading.  Yes, merging images, better B/W conversion etc, but ...

The new ACR machine is derived from the buyout of Pixmantec's Rawshhoter software that is also being integrated with Lightroom.  Curiously, at this stage, Adobe have not quite married the two up viz Lightroom and Photoshop!
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Well, let me stop you right there...don't PRESUME you know the degree to which Michael Jonsson has contributed to Camera Raw/Lightroom. Because certain functions (fill light & vibrance) have shown up in Camera Raw, it's not because of any direct code from RSP. The concepts may have been Michael's but the code is Thomas Knoll & Zalman Stern. Michael hasn't really settled in in San Jose yet and he's not yet done a lot of code-he's still learning the Adobe way of coding-which by default must be cross-platform. So, the Camera Raw 4 "alpha" (cause it's gonna change before release) is -NOT- derived from RSP but rather influenced by it.

Most importantly is the introduction of Smart Filters. Non-destructive use of Filters. This philosophy is at the base of the Lightroom experience and its coming into PS shows that Adobe may be committed to this type of editing for the future. I really welcome it.

Uh, Smart Filters come from Smart Layers which are already in CS2. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between metadata editing (as from Lightroom) and re-editable edits via Smart Object/Filters.

One wonders if, has been mooted elsewhere, that the end of the road for PS is now in sight. For so long it has been the de facto for image editing and yet has also been trying to be so many things to so many different groups. The whole idea of PS being part of CS tells its own tale.

If you presume that, you would also be wrong...the public beta is just that. There's still a lot coming in CS3 that has not yet been revealed...Camera Raw 4 is merely an alpha at this stage...and while the interface and the UB compile is essentially done, that's not to say that you've yet seen ALL the features of Photoshop CS3 yet...only those that Adobe has chosen to show at this time. Just remember that photographers actually make up a relatively small % of the Photoshop user base.

BTW, Photoshop CS3 is actually version 10.x, CS2 was 9.x

[Mark D Segal]

I've been probing this new set of releases (Bridge, ACR, PSCS3 Beta) as well as carefully absorbing the tutorials on the NAPP site and Russel Brown's Quicktime material. It is an ALREADY impressive set of new stuff, and if as Jeff says there is more to come, it will most likely be a "must-have" up-grade. I think it is not worthwhile ruminating about who Photoshop is written for and what % of the clientele does this or that in the graphic arts. There are so many tools and such an infinite combination of permutations and combinations for using them, that whether it is photography or graphic anything else, the only limitation is the creativity, knowledge and imagination of the user.

That much said, I think Adobe may have released this a bit prematurely. There are REALLY some very annoying bugs in it that have more to do with O/S interface than anything within the operating procedures of the programs themselves. To wit:

- The new Bridge is buggy - at least in Windows XP Professional on my (new) computer. It crashed often enough on opening (the old one doesn't), doesn't always produce some of the thumbnails it should, etc. that I've reverted to the old one. This is a shame because it has nifty new file comparison features I would have liked to use.

- PSCS3 makes one's photo printer the default printer unless you go back into the O/S and reverse it each time (many people me included have more than one printer and use a non-photo machine as a default printer).

- It is pure hell to get file-association settings to stick and respond as intended allowing one to chose which application to use as the default for which type of files. One needs this flex especially during a transition period when one of the applications is still a beta. It just seems to disobey what it is told to do.

These are seemingly elementary expectations and one hopes that Adobe will attend to them sooner rather than later. I could not find a feedback loop within the Adobe Labs website for PSCS3 - I know there is a user to user discussion forum but they don't mention whether they are even monitoring its contents. They do make a point it is for users to talk to eachother, and by inference not to Adobe. Their approach to user feedback for Lightroom is much more "inviting" - unless I've missed something I should have seen.

[bjanes]

Looking at CS3, AKA Photoshop 9, I can only see a very few benefits for upgrading.  Yes, merging images, better B/W conversion etc, but ...

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revneil is one edition behind: PSCS3 is actually PS10. He may not be that much more up to speed concerning the changes over PSCS2.

[Schewe]

- The new Bridge is buggy - at least in Windows XP Professional on my (new) computer. It crashed often enough on opening (the old one doesn't), doesn't always produce some of the thumbnails it should, etc. that I've reverted to the old one. This is a shame because it has nifty new file comparison features I would have liked to use.
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So, you don't remember the original Bridge 1.0.0 release? It was followed by Bridge 1.01 in about 8 weeks because 1.0.0 wasn't usable (particularly on Windows).

That is part of the reasoning behind the beta...to get it in the wild and test it. We have two MAJOR OS upgrades just around the corner. Vista AND Leopard...

And, Adobe -DID- call it BETA...and it's working just like a beta will work. . .only partially and with bugs.

I guess since I've been doing alpha/beta testing for so many years, little stuff like this doesn't bother me. I'm rather pleased that Adobe decided to do a public beta and give people the opportunity to offer feedback for the first time with Photoshop.

Nobody is/will be holding a gun to your head to -FORCE- you to use Photoshop CS3.

[Mark D Segal]

Yes Jeff I remember it all too well, and I do understand what a Beta is all about, and I know using it is completely voluntary and I still think Adobe has been in this business long enough to at least assure BASIC O/S operational functionality before releasing it to the public - if only so that users who don't have your depth of experience won't be distracted by what you call minor bugs (but still consume nervous energy and time to work-around) and instead focus their minds on what Adobe wants us to focus on - which is the internals of the programs themselves.

Some of these functionality issues are steps backward - one expects Betas to have problems with new stuff going forward - not elememtary things that have been working properly for years in previous versions. And I take your point that they release it for user feedback which is fine, but I ask a second time, where do they provide for it? Is it the User to User Forum on Labs website, because it still isn't obvious to me from what they say whether they are monitoring that material. One would hope the whole purpose is that they would, but ARE THEY - if so they should say so.

As far as Vista is concerned - that's Microsoft and if they perform per tradition risk-averse users should wait until Service Pack 2 before installing it. Their Beta spreads right through into the commercial product we pay for, so in perspective Adobe is doing just fine, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't mention legitimate concerns and raise legitimate questions. Otherwise what's the point of the Beta? They are big boys - they can absorb this kind of discussion without going off the deep end.

All that said and done, as I mentioned in my previous post, what they've produced has great features I really like, so I have taken the trouble to avail myself of the new ACR, which does almost all the luminance and colour adjustment one needs - and better, while I stick with old Bridge for sorting and selection and PSCS2 for plugins and printing. I'll move onward from that contrived hybrid once the bugs get ironed out. But that's just me and my set-up - No doubt, like they used to say on "Naked City" back in the 1950s - eight million souls - eight million stories.

Take care.

Mark

[picnic]

So, you don't remember the original Bridge 1.0.0 release? It was followed by Bridge 1.01 in about 8 weeks because 1.0.0 wasn't usable (particularly on Windows).

That is part of the reasoning behind the beta...to get it in the wild and test it. We have two MAJOR OS upgrades just around the corner. Vista AND Leopard...

And, Adobe -DID- call it BETA...and it's working just like a beta will work. . .only partially and with bugs.

I guess since I've been doing alpha/beta testing for so many years, little stuff like this doesn't bother me. I'm rather pleased that Adobe decided to do a public beta and give people the opportunity to offer feedback for the first time with Photoshop.

Nobody is/will be holding a gun to your head to -FORCE- you to use Photoshop CS3.
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I have to say I have had very few bugs--and that's with a system that isn't extremely high powered.  The few that I've encountered have been minor annoyances.  I have processed a number of files with no problems in processing.  I have reported 2--a problem opening Bridge from PS--I open it separately now.  I need to deal with scripts so it opens quickly.  Other than that--occasionally I can't view at full pixel or full page from tool setup--only menu, but it happens only occasionally.   All in all---I've found it pretty bug free for me as a beta.  Much easier to deal with than LR.  I love having it available--I'm using ACR fully, B/W adj. layer that gives me great control (after muti layer, much processing in the past) and printing is easy and intuitive--and quick selection and enhance edges are terrific..  I know I will buy the upgrade alreadyl  I prefer working in PS to LR--since I end up there anyhow, use Imatch and Qimage or print from PS.  I will get vs. 1 of LR free anyhow since I"m an RWP license holder, but I bet I won't use it.

Diane

[Jack Flesher]

I'm rather pleased that Adobe decided to do a public beta and give people the opportunity to offer feedback for the first time with Photoshop.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well said -- and it is clearly labeled a BETA version

Quick question since I don't visit the feedback forums: Are the XP print dialog bugs all reported?  IE; Paper size issues, resets the default printer on PC's, does NOT hold the settings in the print set-up screen on the CS dialog page and then forces the print set-up screen to pop up immediately after hitting print in the CS dialog?

Other issues in XP include tool menus disappearing during heavy lifting; having to reduce RAM to 2G or so to get heavy photomerge to run to completion.

PS: Love just about everything else about it, even with the bugz!

[Schewe]

Are the XP print dialog bugs all reported?  IE; Paper size issues, resets the default printer on PC's, does NOT hold the settings in the print set-up screen on the CS dialog page and then forces the print set-up screen to pop up immediately after hitting print in the CS dialog?
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Don't know...but from the [a href=\"http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/messageview.cfm?forumid=72&catid=626&threadid=1223864&enterthread=y]Photoshop CS3 FAQs[/url] comes this:


KNOWN ISSUES:
Known issues for the Photoshop CS3 beta include the following:

* Installer fails to run on Mac (initialization appears for a second and then disappears)
Workaround:
1) Turn FileVault and "Use secure virtual memory" off in System Preferences > Security
2) Restart your computer

* Uninstalling CS3 removes the photoshop-9.jsx file and breaks CS2 Photoshop/Bridge interactions
Workaround: Re-install CS2

* The Adobe Media Gallery (available in the File > Automate menu) is non-operational in the Photoshop CS3 Beta.
Workaround:
1) Move the CS2 Presets from Adobe Photoshop CS2 > Presets > Web Photo Gallery to Adobe Photoshop CS3 > Presets
2) Move the WebContactSheetII.plugin from Adobe Photoshop CS2 > Plug-Ins > Adobe Photoshop Only > Automate to Adobe Photoshop CS3 > Plug-Ins > Automate
3) (Intel-based Macs) Select the Photoshop CS3 app and do Get Info on it and select "Open using Rosetta"
4) Launch Photoshop and choose Web Photo Gallery from the File > Automate menu

*CS2 version of Bridge/Photoshop launching CS3 versions - Workaround:
1) Quit all versions of Photoshop and Bridge
2) Mac: Delete the /Library/Application Support/Adobe/Launch/photoshop/10.0/ folder on your Desktop
Win: Delete the C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Launch\photoshop\10.0 folder on your Desktop
3) Mac: Delete the /Library/Application Support/Adobe/Launch/bridge/2.0/ folder on your Desktop
Win: Delete the C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Launch\bridge\2.0 folder on your Desktop

* Printing to non-default page sizes (Windows Only):
1. File > Print > check on scale to fit
2. Page setup > Select your paper size > Ok
3. Toggle the orientation buttons to force scale to fit to reflect the new paper size. After scale to fit reflects the proper size for your paper you can uncheck it at this point if needed.
4. Toggle centered checkbox on and off if you want the final output centered.
5. Print > Select preferences > set your page setup again to match the settings you selected in step 2 page setup
6. Print

* Fixed height palettes turns blank when dragged to the top of a second monitor
* Large cursors are not displayed on Intel-based Macs.
* The Pattern Maker plug-in is not available on Intel-based Macs
* Uninstall causes Acrobat 7 Pro and Reader to be automatically reconfigured on Windows XP.
* Interpolation on image resize is not working correctly.
* Certain plug-Ins are not being loaded on Intel-based Macs (AltiVec, PPCCore, Embed and Read Watermark).
* Camera Raw is not yet scriptable.
* Photoshop may crash on quit when running on a developer seed of Mac OS X 10.5 "Leopard."
* Non-Photoshop Open EXR files fail to open in Photoshop CS3.
* PDF settings are not included. If you do not have Acrobat 8, you will not be able to save out as PDFx.
* The Adobe Media Gallery (available in the File > Automate menu) is non-operational in the Photoshop CS3 Beta.
* Unable to open a CMYK JPEG or images larger than 10,000 pixels per side if "Prefer ACR for JPEG" preference is checked.
* Recovery and fill light sliders don't respond immediately on first use. If unable to open more then one JPEG on the Mac the workaround is to check the preference option to "Prefer ACR for JPEG."
* Thumbnails don't always update in Bridge after editing raw file in PS ACR.
* TWAINBridge preventing Mac installer from working (solution: use Activity Monitor to quit that process)
* MacTel platform cannot read BMP format files
* Camera Raw dialog box cut-off at 1024x768 monitor resolution

[Mark D Segal]

Jeff,

Thanks for reproducing that long laundry list of "Known Issues". I would like to add another one:

*The new Bridge does not recognize  any image settings creted in the old Bridge. This likely means the sidecars, which I keep with each raw file, are not being picked-up.

(To remind, I'm using Windows XP Professional on a state-of-the-art Dell 690 Precision Workstation, Xeon 5160 Dual Core Processor)

I discovered this when after sorting, rotating and labeling a whole folder of files in old Bridge, I would try once again to open new Bridge, load that folder and see how it behaves. Well, it misbehaved - I was starting all over again. Nothing sorted, nothing rotated, nothing labeled.

I basically agree with you and Jack that Adobe is due much credit and gratitude for launching this application into the public domain as a free Beta to registered CS2 customers. BUT frankly there remains in my mind a question of WHEN is the right time. The issue I'm reporting here is so elementary, i.e. backward compatibility of core functionality at least from the immediately previous version is so basic to modern programming that one wonders why such things were not checked and corrected before the BETA got released. Why the rush to publish at Adobe? Who's the competition? I just don't understand it - and I do understand what a Beta is.

Anyhow, I hope the bug I mention just above gets reported to Adobe's development team - I still don't see how to access them in a way I know the message gets there.

[Raw shooter]

Jeff,

Thanks for reproducing that long laundry list of "Known Issues". I would like to add another one:

*The new Bridge does not recognize  any image settings creted in the old Bridge. This likely means the sidecars, which I keep with each raw file, are not being picked-up.

(To remind, I'm using Windows XP Professional on a state-of-the-art Dell 690 Precision Workstation, Xeon 5160 Dual Core Processor)

I discovered this when after sorting, rotating and labeling a whole folder of files in old Bridge, I would try once again to open new Bridge, load that folder and see how it behaves. Well, it misbehaved - I was starting all over again. Nothing sorted, nothing rotated, nothing labeled.

I basically agree with you and Jack that Adobe is due much credit and gratitude for launching this application into the public domain as a free Beta to registered CS2 customers. BUT frankly there remains in my mind a question of WHEN is the right time. The issue I'm reporting here is so elementary, i.e. backward compatibility of core functionality at least from the immediately previous version is so basic to modern programming that one wonders why such things were not checked and corrected before the BETA got released. Why the rush to publish at Adobe? Who's the competition? I just don't understand it - and I do understand what a Beta is.

Anyhow, I hope the bug I mention just above gets reported to Adobe's development team - I still don't see how to access them in a way I know the message gets there.
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On my machine. I checked a preference setting, and all the sidecars did apply to the thumbs in Bridge CS3.  It may work on your machine too.
I will link the setting
[attachment=1413:attachment]

[Mark D Segal]

Thank you ever so much it worked. It was set at the default "Quick Thumbnails" when I opened it, because that seemed fine - I wanted - speed, but I guess it only picks up the old stuff with "High Quality" checked. Good to know!

[islandbuck]

It's hard to get an intelligent perspective out on the internet these days without the sophomoric gear heads shooting you down spewing out some techy minutia and repeating marketing gibberish from the manufacturer.

I agree with you.  Adobe needs to delineate their market better.  I personally don't like the UI influence Macromedia is having on Adobe.  I'm not into the "latest cell phone grovey stuff" getting in my way.  I'm much more concerned with the "meat and potatoes" of it all.  In practical terms as a photographer CS3 offers nothing for me over CS2 except higher hardware resource consumption and an improved B&W conversion dialog and B&W conversion in ACR.  Not much of an upgrade from my perspective.  Not worth the major pain of a reinstall.

[Jack Flesher]

In practical terms as a photographer CS3 offers nothing for me over CS2 except higher hardware resource consumption and an improved B&W conversion dialog and B&W conversion in ACR.  Not much of an upgrade from my perspective.  Not worth the major pain of a reinstall.
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Have you tried the new photomerge?

,

[islandbuck]

Add to that the expense of the inherent bugs that will be in the new software.  Just more time and expence for not much gain.  It took Adobe more than a year to reasonably clean things up from CS2 and Bridge 9.0 - 9.0.2.  After a years investment in scripting and action automation of our workflow not the kind of dark waters we want to just jump into just because the pallets come out the side.

On the other hand I love the basic concept of Lightroom but it's execution and practicality in it's current state leaves a lot to be desired.  Not there yet for me.  Maybe in a few years they will sort things out.  I hope.  Seems like what we all really need.

As always, it boils down to time and money.  The less time a software manufacturer makes for us on the computer the more money we spend.  After all, thats the name of the automation game isn't it?

[islandbuck]

If they would have added (just to ACR)

- The ability to repair blown channels (saturation/de-saturation mask sliders with auto)
- B&W conversion (they did this one)
- Noise reduction capabilites at least on par with the current state of the industry
- Output Sharpening/Interpolation (print and otherwise) that is best in the industry or at   on par with the industry.

I would upgrade in a heartbeat.  I would be the first in line.  This kind of stuff is real time and money stuff.

[macgyver]

I'm betting that, regardless of features, this will be a "must have" upgrade for many people who either:

1.) Have an intel mac now and want performance optimitzed for it.

2.) Have a PPC mac and CS1 or earlier and didn't want to spend the money on CS2 becuase in the long term, their next machine will be intel and there's no use spending so much money and then just having to respend it again.  (This is where I am)

I plan on buying this, barring massive reason not to, for the second reason (as I said).  I'll bet that many people are in those two boats and, as a result, Adobe can probably get away with not a whole ton if they would like to do so simply because they know they have a captive audiance.  I'm not saying this is what they are doing, at least I hope not, but I am willing to bet that they know they will ship gazillilons regardless.

Understand that I have not seen the beta yet and therefore have no idea what it offers, this is just my thinking on the situation.  That being said, thank goodness I can get education discounts.

-mac

[islandbuck]

Good point.

[MatthewCromer]

Well, let me stop you right there...don't PRESUME you know the degree to which Michael Jonsson has contributed to Camera Raw/Lightroom. Because certain functions (fill light & vibrance) have shown up in Camera Raw, it's not because of any direct code from RSP. The concepts may have been Michael's but the code is Thomas Knoll & Zalman Stern.

That's too bad, because I find the RSP conversions far more detailed and sharper than the ACR versions.

[Mark D Segal]

That's too bad, because I find the RSP conversions far more detailed and sharper than the ACR versions.
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Matthew, hard to second-guess anybody about what they SEE, but I have to admit I find this perplexing for two reasons: (1) Adobe bought Pixmantec, so they must know from the inside-out what RSP is capable of doing, and (2) the people involved with the development of ACR have the most experienced and the finest, most innovative mathematical minds in the business - period.

But as they say - the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so could you do us a favour - to the extent this is capable of revealing anything - take an image (raw file) you consider typical/representative; convert it in the new ACR, and convert the raw file again using RSP, do a screen capture of each conversion and post them on this website. It's probably best not to intervene with any adjustments for one set, and do another set with what you consider to be typical adjustments, but make them the same for both converters, do the screen captures and post them on the web. Of course, you need to make sure the background settings for example in terms of sharpening, noise reduction etc. are either turned off or the same for both. I for one, and I'm sure other readers of this thread would be curious to see exactly what you are seeing.