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Author Topic: Covid Vaccine  (Read 13600 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #180 on: January 28, 2021, 11:29:22 am »

As I stated earlier, you have no idea who Biden consulted before making the statement.  That he appeared by himself, does not make it a “unilateral” decision.  Biden has a history of “doing his homework” before coming to a decision, vs his predecessor who was know for ‘hip shooting’.
I believe Biden made the decision more for political reasons than medical.  He wanted to show his upcoming administration would be pro-active.  I don't fault him for that.  In fact, it might turn out to be a good recommendation in the end.  If people look fairly at the Warp SPeed program I posted earlier, they'll see the Trump was very pro-active as well.  It's why here we're so far ahead of most countries in getting our shots.  They're way behind except for GB, Israel, and a few others.

But we didn't know how Biden worked at the time.  That was before the inauguration.  No one ever gave Trump the benefit of the doubt in 5 years.  Yet with Biden, everyone just goes along with what he says with smiles and approval and no real hard questions. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #181 on: January 28, 2021, 11:42:41 am »

Both, Biden and Trump had advisors and experts who made their recommendations to them. The difference is that Biden listened and acted wisely and responsibly whereas the other didn't listen and acted irresponsibly. Or didn't act at all. 
Let me post the Warp Speed timeline of what Trump accomplished last year.  It's a different link than I posted earlier.  But it summarizes so it's easier to read than the first. How didn't he act at all?  How were these things irresponsible?
https://www.defense.gov/Explore/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Operation-Warp-Speed/Operation-Warp-Speed-Timeline/

TechTalk

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #182 on: January 28, 2021, 11:49:06 am »

As this is now nothing more than a political thread, maybe you should consider moving the conversation.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #183 on: January 28, 2021, 11:52:46 am »

True enough - I can't be sure that experts didn't suggest to him that injecting bleach was a good idea. My bad.
He put that in question form directing it to the experts who were present at his conference.  It was just an idea that I feel is perfectly acceptable.  If antiseptics work on the surface, can they be adapted to work inside as well.  It's up to the scientists to figure out how to do that safely.  But it's a perfectly acceptable out-of-the-box concept that's worthy of discussion.  After all, when I went to the dentist, I gargled with an antiseptic wash before he worked on me to kill any viruses.  Could there be some way of reducing the danger from poisoning so it can be applied to areas in the throat and lungs to kill the virus there?   A very logical and astute suggestion.  Only a political enemy would knock the concept. Of course, his presentation was distorted by the press as they have been for 5 years.

Alan Klein

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #184 on: January 28, 2021, 11:59:17 am »

No, his statement was what he would do when he became President. It was common sense and something (reserving full 2nd dose supply) that I had been upset about.  Anyone with any appreciation supply chain management would understand you do not need to buffer 100% of supply. 

One would think it must have be3n a good idea....or why would Azar say he was going to do it 6 days later.  Unfortunately he wasn’t aware of the supply situation, which he should have.  The supply logistics director (General Perna) had already released it in late December.

At the COVID briefing yesterday, it was confirmed that all supply was being release, except for 2-3 days worth, to provide a slight buffer to cover any minor glitches in manufacturing.  States are responsible to manage their allotments to cover both 1st & 2nd dose requirements, per CDC instructions.
When Azar came out with the same recommendation a few days after Biden, all I could think of he was protecting his job so he wouldn't be fired by the new administration when they took over. It's always good to agree with your boss.   I think Fauci parroted it as well a few days later but he was more circumspect.

It may have been common sense.  But the argument against Trump was he shouldn't use common sense. That he should be listening to his experts only to make decisions, only the medical ones.  Ignore the economic experts.  Yet this standard was not applied to Biden's "Common sense" recommendation.  It's the double standard I'm complaining about, not whether the recommendation is a good one or not. 

faberryman

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #185 on: January 28, 2021, 12:06:21 pm »

I wonder if anyone who insulted me calling me an old fart who only cares about himself and not little girls has the guts to apologize for their meanness and insensitivity as well as being just wrong about the facts?

You were bitching and moaning about the patient pool being expanded to include those younger than 65 with comorbidities. I asked you why you thought you should get your vaccine first ahead of them. In other words, discuss the trolley problem adapted to setting vaccination preferences. Instead, you offered no response. Then we get this:

As I said previously, I was ready to give up my first shot so my wife could get it. At the time, we weren't sure both of us had an appointment.  But frankly, I'm not willing to give up my second shot for an unknown stranger.

You may have an elaborate moral and ethical rational for your position, but in the absence of your articulating it: res ipsa loquitur.

If people here are so unselfish about these things, let them not ask for an appointment until everyone else got their shot.  That's the only way they could prove to me their heart is bigger than their mouth.

Kind of sounds like a Lord of the Flies, doesn't it?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 01:01:24 pm by faberryman »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #186 on: January 28, 2021, 12:26:54 pm »

He put that in question form directing it to the experts who were present at his conference. It was just an idea that I feel is perfectly acceptable.  If antiseptics work on the surface, can they be adapted to work inside as well.  It's up to the scientists to figure out how to do that safely.  But it's a perfectly acceptable out-of-the-box concept that's worthy of discussion.  After all, when I went to the dentist, I gargled with an antiseptic wash before he worked on me to kill any viruses.  Could there be some way of reducing the danger from poisoning so it can be applied to areas in the throat and lungs to kill the virus there?   A very logical and astute suggestion.  Only a political enemy would knock the concept. Of course, his presentation was distorted by the press as they have been for 5 years.

Was it his own idea or did he heard it somewhere? Have you tried that perfectly acceptable remedy? With ideas like that Trump could open a university to promote such teachings.

But to be on the safe side, I would recommend  to gargle with an industrial grade toilet cleaner, that would kill more germs than just the regular antiseptic. Very logical and astute method.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 01:23:07 pm by LesPalenik »
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faberryman

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #187 on: January 28, 2021, 01:03:47 pm »

I haven't heard any compliments from Democrats for a job well done.

So what? What is this obsession of yours with Trump getting praise?
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TechTalk

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #188 on: January 28, 2021, 01:03:58 pm »

Maybe the fact the new administration changed the protocol has something to do with it.

That's the opposite of a fact. It's a falsehood.

It is quite amusing to observe the dynamic in this group. All those who ganged up on Alan for his complaint about the second dose did so thinking they are defending Bided administration's decision. Now when it turns out it was actually Trump administration's decision, the gang will have to realize they were defending the enemy and that they should have to then side with Alan (gasp!) in criticism of the decision   ;D ;D ;D

I have no idea what relevance your reply has to my post which you quoted. My primary interest in participating in an online forum is the separation of fact from fiction. The fact is that both decisions—to advise states to expand vaccinations to virtually everyone and to ship out the vaccine reserves—were made by the prior administration. That's a fact. There's nothing to defend or support regarding a decision that Biden was unable to make before taking office. Biden did vocally oppose the former and supported the latter. That is also a fact. They were recommendations and not decisions as neither he nor his team were in a position to make decisions before taking office.

As for myself, I don't view the world in simplistic, ideological, black and white terms. Specifically, as this thread is about vaccines, I think that it makes sense to vaccinate the most vulnerable first. That would include the elderly and front line workers that are exposed to patients with Covid-19. In addition to those two groups, I think it reasonable for medical professionals to have the flexibility to vaccinate others that are especially vulnerable due to compromised immune systems, as an example chemotherapy patients or possibly others based solely on rational medical practice. As for distribution, that requires a granular knowledge of several factors to which no one here has access. Distribution decisions likely don't lend themselves well to black and white thinking like always keeping half in reserve for a second dose or shipping every dose as soon as it arrives for distribution. There is likely a more effective and rational middle course of keeping a reserve buffer amount that would fluctuate based on several considerations that include, but are not limited to,: current manufacturing output; a buffer to cover temporary variations or interruptions; and planned expansions of production.

And as for smiley faces, I suspect that they are directed toward ones ego and not outward bound.
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jrsforums

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #189 on: January 28, 2021, 01:06:04 pm »

I believe Biden made the decision more for political reasons than medical.  He wanted to show his upcoming administration would be pro-active.  I don't fault him for that.  In fact, it might turn out to be a good recommendation in the end.  If people look fairly at the Warp SPeed program I posted earlier, they'll see the Trump was very pro-active as well.  It's why here we're so far ahead of most countries in getting our shots.  They're way behind except for GB, Israel, and a few others.

But we didn't know how Biden worked at the time.  That was before the inauguration.  No one ever gave Trump the benefit of the doubt in 5 years.  Yet with Biden, everyone just goes along with what he says with smiles and approval and no real hard questions.

I agree making the ANNOUNCEMENT was probably political.  In addition, it was not really a medical decision as much as a suppy chain (aka inventory management) decision.

We had 36 years of Biden in the senate and 8 years as VP, so had a track record.  His record is one of making thoughtful decisions and based on the needs of the country.  He has not always made correct decisions (a decision being a judgement call which can go either way), but has been honest when his decision has been proven wrong and has been will to change it.

We had 40+ years to know Trump....which showed that his primary decision making was based on what was best for him.  One only needs to look at Atlantic City, where he arrange to unload his debt to shareholders, who got left holding the bag in bankruptcy.  In 2020, his winning strategy was a strong economy.  Had he managed the pandemic, vs trying to keep pushing the economy, we might still be stuck with him.  With the Washington Post final fact check poll of 32K+ lies over his presidency, it is difficult to know how anyone could not doubt him.
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John

TechTalk

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #190 on: January 28, 2021, 01:06:55 pm »

I believe Biden made the decision more for political reasons than medical.

It is no surprise that you believe that.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Covid Vaccine
« Reply #191 on: January 28, 2021, 01:17:06 pm »

It's just another attempt to get the thread closed.

Enough. I have suspended the ability of several people to post and this thread is locked. Genuine discussion of vaccines is perfectly acceptable; political discussions are not.

Jeremy
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 01:22:13 pm by Jeremy Roussak »
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