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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 470734 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9960 on: April 12, 2021, 06:14:27 pm »

Using a phone while driving is one of the stupidest things people do, including hands-free. There are literally dozens of studies showing this including one that reports phone usage is equivalent to driving drunk. As for seat belts, who do you think is going to pay for your medical care if you get serious injuries because of no belt? Not you, but Medicare (taxpayers) or insurance (premium payers) or other patients (if the hospital eats the cost).

Freedom does not mean that you are able to do whatever you want whenever you want. That's just selfishness. Remember what SCOTUS justice Potter Stewart said: Just because you have a right to do something does not mean it is the right thing to do.
The supreme Court has thrown out that rationale.  Taken to extension, you could then outlaw skiing, scuba diving, climbing mountains, smoking, eating at McDonald's, and hundreds of other things on the basis that the person doing it could get sick or die and becomes wards of the state.  It would give absolute authority to the state to control your every behavior.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9961 on: April 12, 2021, 06:20:52 pm »

You want your cake and eat it too.  The process you described is accurate.  But it's not democratic.  Your conclusion it is, is wrong.

If the requirement for a supermajority of democratically cast votes, under specific circumstances, is not "democratic" and is not authoritarian, then what is it?

Some states, as an example, have a process for amendments to their state constitution to be placed on the ballot for voters to approve, but require a supermajority of voters to approve the amendment. Are those voters not engaging in democracy because it requires more than a simple majority to alter their constitution?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9962 on: April 12, 2021, 06:23:11 pm »

Sovereignty over specific matters is divided between states and the federal government. Neither has absolute sovereignty, thus sovereignty is shared. However, supremacy is given to the federal constitution and federal laws and state constitutions or laws must not conflict with those of the federal government.

While sovereignty is limited in both state and federal government, states have no controlling authority regarding matters within the domain of the federal government. However, the federal government may, in some instances, intervene in state matters if there is conflict with federal authority or law. There are a multitude of examples that can be given for this, but do you need them?

This was just discussed. What is your confusion in this regard.
We agree with the divisions.  We're arguing over terminology.   Would independent states be better? Partially sovereign? I am willing to use another word.  I just look and found this definition.  Internal sovereignty.  I like that.  The 50 states have Internal Sovereignty.  Does that work for you?

The individual states of the United States do not possess the powers of external sovereignty, such as the right to deport undesirable persons, but each does have certain attributes of internal sovereignty, such as the power to regulate the acquisition and transfer of property within its borders.
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/State+sovereignty

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9963 on: April 12, 2021, 06:29:33 pm »

If the requirement for a supermajority of democratically cast votes, under specific circumstances, is not "democratic" and is not authoritarian, then what is it?

Some states, as an example, have a process for amendments to their state constitution to be placed on the ballot for voters to approve, but require a supermajority of voters to approve the amendment. Are those voters not engaging in democracy because it requires more than a simple majority to alter their constitution?
First off, a true democracy is one where the people govern directly.  We have a representative democracy that is further limited.  A majority vote can be overruled by the president or a group of unelected judges.  So the majority rule is limited. Again we agree with the basic process and are arguing over terminology.   

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9964 on: April 12, 2021, 06:38:15 pm »

I could see the first restriction because I became a danger to others by being distracted.  But wearing a seat belt is a personal choice that affects me.  It should be up to me to decide. 

Seatbelts are not solely for your protection. They also keep the driver in a position to maintain control of the car during sudden braking, evasive maneuvers, or in the event of a collision. It isn't just a driver safety issue; it's also a driving safety issue.

In addition, it also prevents people from injuring others in the car due to the impact of one person against another in a crash. Let's say that you're driving without a seatbelt and are hit broadside at 30 mph by a driver who runs a red light; as hard as your head is, can you imagine the damage it could do slamming into your poor wife's head at 30 mph while sitting next to you?
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9965 on: April 12, 2021, 06:49:55 pm »

You see.  You're insulting.  Only your opinions are "valid".  Only your "facts" are factual.  Like Twitter, you've made a decision that people who don't think and believe like you, who see things differently, should be silenced or have to explain themselves.  Hence your interrogation of me with loads of questions.   Only your beliefs are those that have to be accepted as truth.  Wow.

If you do not want your opinions challenged, then perhaps expressing them in a public discussion forum is not the best choice. Why not write a blog instead, and turn off the comments?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 08:24:03 pm by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9966 on: April 12, 2021, 07:00:23 pm »

Taken to extension, you could then outlaw skiing, scuba diving, climbing mountains, smoking, eating at McDonald's, and hundreds of other things on the basis that the person doing it could get sick or die and becomes wards of the state.  It would give absolute authority to the state to control your every behavior.

This is the logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum.  Using it weakens your argument.

I don't think we have the problem you raised. We have a mechanism to safeguard us from the absolute authority of the state to control our every behavior. Remember when a New York court said Bloomberg could not ban extra large sugary drinks at fast food joints on the grounds of public health? Thus, we retain the freedom to make choices that make us fat and cause our teeth to fall out. And, thanks to ObamaCare, the insurance companies can't charge us more for our health insurance when we do so. Neither can Medicare. Of course, we can always have discussions and disagreements about where the line should be drawn.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 08:38:24 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9967 on: April 12, 2021, 07:04:19 pm »

We're arguing over terminology.

The words sovereign and democratic have definitions and applications. I do think that it is helpful in a discussion that they be used properly to avoid confusion or misleading conclusions.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9968 on: April 12, 2021, 07:25:03 pm »

We agree with the divisions.  We're arguing over terminology.   Would independent states be better? Partially sovereign? I am willing to use another word.  I just look and found this definition.  Internal sovereignty.  I like that.  The 50 states have Internal Sovereignty.  Does that work for you?

The individual states of the United States do not possess the powers of external sovereignty, such as the right to deport undesirable persons, but each does have certain attributes of internal sovereignty, such as the power to regulate the acquisition and transfer of property within its borders.
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/State+sovereignty

"Individual" states is a perfectly appropriate and accurate description.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9969 on: April 12, 2021, 07:55:28 pm »

First off, a true democracy is one where the people govern directly.

What you're describing is called "direct democracy" not "true democracy". Both direct democracy and representative democracy are "true" forms of democracy, each with its own advantages and disadvantages.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9970 on: April 12, 2021, 08:26:35 pm »

The whole federal system of checks and balances is anti-democratic.

No. The "system of checks and balances" is not designed to be "anti-democratic" nor does it function to limit democracy. The "system of checks and balances" is designed to limit concentration of power in any one person, area, or branch of government in order to protect and preserve the system of representative democracy which was created in the same document as the checks and balances — namely the Constitution. The "system of checks and balances" is not an "anti-democratic" means of undermining democracy; it is the opposite.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9971 on: April 12, 2021, 09:27:33 pm »

Meanwhile, they seem to be honing the tactics of voter suppression in various places around the US, https://www.salon.com/2021/04/12/leaked-video-reveals-a-gop-plan-to-intimidate-black-and-brown-voters-in-houston/.

Trigger alert: the link is probably to a leftie site, so snowflakes should proceed with caution lest they be offended.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9972 on: April 12, 2021, 10:41:18 pm »

This is the logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum.  Using it weakens your argument.

I don't think we have the problem you raised. We have a mechanism to safeguard us from the absolute authority of the state to control our every behavior. Remember when a New York court said Bloomberg could not ban extra large sugary drinks at fast food joints on the grounds of public health? Thus, we retain the freedom to make choices that make us fat and cause our teeth to fall out. And, thanks to ObamaCare, the insurance companies can't charge us more for our health insurance when we do so. Neither can Medicare. Of course, we can always have discussions and disagreements about where the line should be drawn.

you're incorrect about Bloomberg.  He was overruled by the court because his Dept of Health exceeded its authority to outlaw it.Had he gone to NYC's city council and gotten their vote, the law would have been legal. Another freedom could have been lost.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9973 on: April 12, 2021, 10:47:00 pm »

No. The "system of checks and balances" is not designed to be "anti-democratic" nor does it function to limit democracy. The "system of checks and balances" is designed to limit concentration of power in any one person, area, or branch of government in order to protect and preserve the system of representative democracy which was created in the same document as the checks and balances — namely the Constitution. The "system of checks and balances" is not an "anti-democratic" means of undermining democracy; it is the opposite.
If it limits democracy and prevents the majority to rule, than it's not a democracy by definition.  The word democracy is Greek for the people rule.  If the people don't rule at the end, then it isn't a democracy.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9974 on: April 12, 2021, 11:00:13 pm »

If it limits democracy and prevents the majority to rule

The system of checks and balances doesn't limit democracy. Voters are free to democratically vote for their choice of representatives in the government. The checks and balances provide checks on power within areas of government and balance to the distribution of power. The system of checks and balances does nothing to check or limit the right of voters to democratically choose their representation as they see fit.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9975 on: April 12, 2021, 11:10:09 pm »

you're incorrect about Bloomberg.  He was overruled by the court because his Dept of Health exceeded its authority to outlaw it.Had he gone to NYC's city council and gotten their vote, the law would have been legal. Another freedom could have been lost.

I have read the concurring and dissenting opinions in the case. Since the court focused on the separation of power issue, and on that basis alone decided that the health department had exceeded its remit, it did not address the hypothetical substantive question of whether the regulation itself would have been enforceable on public health grounds if the city council had adopted it instead. It would inevitably have been challenged by the sugary drink interests, in which case the court would have had to address the underlying issue it previously managed to avoid taking up. Other jurisdictions have avoided the “portion cap” approach taken by NYC, which was plagued with issues noted by the court, not the least of which is it banned sugary drinks larger than 16 ounces in fast food joints but not convenience stores, and instead impose excise taxes on sugary drinks where they are on firmer legal ground. There is a bill currently pending in the NY state senate to do just that. In retrospect, I should have selected a more straightforward example of courts setting aside legislative overreach with respect to laws affecting health, safety, and welfare, and you are correct to distinguish this one.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 08:02:04 am by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9976 on: April 13, 2021, 08:29:37 am »

The system of checks and balances doesn't limit democracy. Voters are free to democratically vote for their choice of representatives in the government. The checks and balances provide checks on power within areas of government and balance to the distribution of power. The system of checks and balances does nothing to check or limit the right of voters to democratically choose their representation as they see fit.
Then why have anti Trumpers complained for five years that the whole electoral system is not democratic? They complain it's not democratic because the popular vote doesn't select the president?  Clinton should have won.  Either our electoral system is democratic or it isn't.  You can't have it both ways.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9977 on: April 13, 2021, 08:36:26 am »

I have read the concurring and dissenting opinions in the case. Since the court focused on the separation of power issue, and on that basis alone decided that the health department had exceeded its remit, it did not address the hypothetical substantive question of whether the regulation itself would have been enforceable on public health grounds if the city council had adopted it instead. It would inevitably have been challenged by the sugary drink interests, in which case the court would have had to address the underlying issue it previously managed to avoid taking up. Other jurisdictions have avoided the “portion cap” approach taken by NYC, which was plagued with issues noted by the court, not the least of which is it banned sugary drinks larger than 16 ounces in fast food joints but not convenience stores, and instead impose excise taxes on sugary drinks where they are on firmer legal ground. There is a bill currently pending in the NY state senate to do just that. In retrospect, I should have selected a more straightforward example of courts setting aside legislative overreach with respect to laws affecting health, safety, and welfare, and you are correct to distinguish this one.
You could have just said that you made a mistake and thanked me for correcting your original post.  I've made mistakes here.  We all make mistakes.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9978 on: April 13, 2021, 09:16:08 am »

You could have just said that you made a mistake and thanked me for correcting your original post.  I've made mistakes here.  We all make mistakes.

Because the details of "why" were important to understand, I should imagine.

Your phrase "We all make mistakes" is a spectacular example of understatement.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9979 on: April 13, 2021, 09:17:04 am »

Now isn't that interesting.  It appears Biden is keeping tariffs on China in place.  Maybe he isn't napping all the time.

Biden's Commerce Secretary Praises Trump's China Tariffs as 'Effective'

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/bidens-commerce-secretary-praises-trumps-china-tariffs-as-effective/ar-BB1efdVl
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