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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 297113 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12660 on: December 11, 2021, 07:49:41 am »

Why do you keep harping about a non-event that almost no one cares about? I hope Biden does something else dumb soon so I don't have to keep hearing about how poor Tesla was offended. While we're on the subject, is there any reason why Tesla insists on using their own charging plug design?

You keep calling it playing politics, but I'm confused. Why would Biden consider it to be in his interest to slight Tesla? Did Musk refuse to contribute to his campaign or something?
Just to expand on my point about union GM vs. non-union Tesla, and why it;s such a big issue, you have to look at the recently passed infrastructure bill.  All US government contracts must comply with the David-Bacon Act. This requires workers to get paid the "prevailing wage" for the area the work is being done.  Prevailing wages are pegged at union wages and benefits.  So if you bid on and get a government contract, you have to pay your employees union wages and benefits even though they aren't in a union and your company isn't unionized.

So the whole infrastructure bill is a giveaway to the unions by Biden just as Obama gave billions to them when the government bailed out GM and the union pension plan in 2009.  Kodak Alaris should have been as lucky as the UAW.  So the new infrastructure bill is more, much more,  of the same.

So if you're a non-union shop, you either raise every employee's wages to union levels or become a union too.  For the poor taxpayer, their dollar doesn't buy so much because the costs are artificially raised due to higher wage levels.  That's why Biden always says "...good, high, union paid jobs..."

When I worked for the NYC government, they had the same prevailing wage laws.  To give you an idea of what it costs, see this schedule from the NYC Comptrollers Office of what a union journeyman plumber earns.  Who needs college?  Why get a master's or doctorate?
 It costs a NYC contractor $111 an hour!!!  30% and 50% more for shift work at night,  Double the cost for holiday, Saturday and Sunday overtime.  How'd you like to earn in pay and benefits $200,000 a year to install toilets? 30% to 100% more for  evening, holiday and weekend overtime?

-------------------------------------------------------
Plumber
Effective Period: 7/1/2021 - 6/30/2022
Wage Rate per Hour: $71.25
Supplemental Benefit Rate per Hour: $39.95
Supplemental Note: Supplemental benefit contributions are to be made at the applicable overtime rates.
Plumber - Temporary Services
OFFICE OF THE COMPTROLLER, CITY OF NEW YORK
CONSTRUCTION WORKER PREVAILING WAGE SCHEDULE
PUBLISH DATE: 7/1/2021 EFFECTIVE PERIOD: JULY 1, 2021 THROUGH JUNE 30, 2022 Page 70 of 89
Temporary Services - When there are no Plumbers on the job site, there may be three shifts designed to cover
the entire twenty-four hour period, including weekends if necessary, at the following rate straight time.
Effective Period: 7/1/2021 - 6/30/2022
Wage Rate per Hour: $57.08
Supplemental Benefit Rate per Hour: $31.88
Overtime
Double time the regular rate after an 8 hour day.
Double time the regular time rate for Saturday.
Double time the regular rate for Sunday.
Overtime Holidays
Double time the regular rate for work on the following holiday(s).
New Year's Day
President's Day
Memorial Day
Independence Day
Labor Day
Columbus Day
Veteran's Day
Thanksgiving Day
Day after Thanksgiving
Christmas Day
Shift Rates
30% shift premium shall be paid for wages and fringe benefits for 4:00 pm and midnight shifts Monday to Friday.
50% shift premium shall be paid for wages and fringe benefits for 4:00 pm and midnight shift work performed on
weekends. For shift work on holidays, double time wages and fringe benefits shall be paid.
(Plumbers Local #1)
https://comptroller.nyc.gov/wp-content/uploads/documents/ConstructionWorkerSchedule-2021-2022.pdf
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 07:59:42 am by Alan Klein »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12661 on: December 11, 2021, 08:23:34 am »

It is easy to accept that unions would support the Dems. I mean, they're not likely to support the other guys, and since the US insists on having only 2 political parties (something that a lot of people in the rest of the world find a little strange, I believe) then the unions don't have many options. What's more difficult for me to accept is that GM's unionized workforce is that important a political force these days. I'm not sure why their support of Biden bothers you.

But accepting all that for argument's sake, I still don't see why that would upset so much to keep bringing it up. In Trump's time, loyalty was priority 1, he insisted on it and it was commented on many times in these pages by you specifically, among others. So why does Biden's loyalty to part of his "base" upset you so much?

You're just not convincing me. I don't see that episode as very indicative of anything much at all. If that's the worst thing Biden does this year, that's not that bad, is it.
My last post answers most of your questions.  Here are the other clarifications.

First, the US does not require two parties.  There is nothing in our constitution that even mentions parties.  The reason there are mainly two parties is that our electoral system requires a 50% majority of electors to elect a president.  If we had numerous parties, no one party's candidate could get to 50% to elect a president and it would go to Congress to decide who the president is.  That has naturally forced the country into a two-party system although there are Independents like Sanders who is in neither main party but in his case with the Independent Party but votes with the Democrats.

This is why both parties tend to have extreme viewpoint members as they try to attract as many people as they can to get up to a majority vote.  In a parliamentary system, these "at the edge" political positions are fulfilled by separate minority parties.  In America, these people have nowhere to go except the main two parties.  Of course, each major party points to the extreme people in the other party to smear their party.  So the Democrats point to Nazis and white separatists in the Republican Party.  And the Republicans point to the Communists and Black Liberationists in the Democratic Party.  Of course, the majority of each party doesn't accept the views of their minority members.  But it's good for politics and fake news.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 08:33:03 am by Alan Klein »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12662 on: December 11, 2021, 09:42:09 am »

Just to expand on my point about union GM vs. non-union Tesla, and why it;s such a big issue, you have to look at the recently passed infrastructure bill.  All US government contracts must comply with the David-Bacon Act. This requires workers to get paid the "prevailing wage" for the area the work is being done.  Prevailing wages are pegged at union wages and benefits.  So if you bid on and get a government contract, you have to pay your employees union wages and benefits even though they aren't in a union and your company isn't unionized.

So the whole infrastructure bill is a giveaway to the unions by Biden just as Obama gave billions to them when the government bailed out GM and the union pension plan in 2009.  Kodak Alaris should have been as lucky as the UAW.  So the new infrastructure bill is more, much more,  of the same.

So if you're a non-union shop, you either raise every employee's wages to union levels or become a union too.  For the poor taxpayer, their dollar doesn't buy so much because the costs are artificially raised due to higher wage levels.  That's why Biden always says "...good, high, union paid jobs..."

When I worked for the NYC government, they had the same prevailing wage laws.  To give you an idea of what it costs, see this schedule from the NYC Comptrollers Office of what a union journeyman plumber earns.  Who needs college?  Why get a master's or doctorate?
 It costs a NYC contractor $111 an hour!!!  30% and 50% more for shift work at night,  Double the cost for holiday, Saturday and Sunday overtime.  How'd you like to earn in pay and benefits $200,000 a year to install toilets? 30% to 100% more for  evening, holiday and weekend overtime?

-------------------------------------------------------
Plumber
Effective Period: 7/1/2021 - 6/30/2022
Wage Rate per Hour: $71.25
Supplemental Benefit Rate per Hour: $39.95
Supplemental Note: Supplemental benefit contributions are to be made at the applicable overtime rates.
Plumber - Temporary Services
OFFICE OF THE COMPTROLLER, CITY OF NEW YORK
CONSTRUCTION WORKER PREVAILING WAGE SCHEDULE
PUBLISH DATE: 7/1/2021 EFFECTIVE PERIOD: JULY 1, 2021 THROUGH JUNE 30, 2022 Page 70 of 89
Temporary Services - When there are no Plumbers on the job site, there may be three shifts designed to cover
the entire twenty-four hour period, including weekends if necessary, at the following rate straight time.
Effective Period: 7/1/2021 - 6/30/2022
Wage Rate per Hour: $57.08
Supplemental Benefit Rate per Hour: $31.88
Overtime
Double time the regular rate after an 8 hour day.
Double time the regular time rate for Saturday.
Double time the regular rate for Sunday.
Overtime Holidays
Double time the regular rate for work on the following holiday(s).
New Year's Day
President's Day
Memorial Day
Independence Day
Labor Day
Columbus Day
Veteran's Day
Thanksgiving Day
Day after Thanksgiving
Christmas Day
Shift Rates
30% shift premium shall be paid for wages and fringe benefits for 4:00 pm and midnight shifts Monday to Friday.
50% shift premium shall be paid for wages and fringe benefits for 4:00 pm and midnight shift work performed on
weekends. For shift work on holidays, double time wages and fringe benefits shall be paid.
(Plumbers Local #1)
https://comptroller.nyc.gov/wp-content/uploads/documents/ConstructionWorkerSchedule-2021-2022.pdf



The idea that infrastructure spending is something for the unions and not for everyone's benefit is drivel. Sorry, but no sale. Why not say that everything that politicians do is to buy votes then? Even when they do things that everyone wants? You're just fitting all data points to the view through your lens.

As to your complaints about union benefits being too generous, I'll say a couple of things. One, if they are really too generous, time will fix that in various ways. After all, we live in times when some experts try to convince us that global monopolies are good for us. We'll see.

But the other thing I want to say about arguments like that is why do we always measure the benefits of union shops compared to non-union and conclude that the union shops are unfair. Why do we never come to the conclusion that maybe the private non-union shops are lousy places to work and that the level of benefits in them are pathetic. I've heard a similar argument with respect civil servants , that their pension plans are more generous than in the private sector. Well, then, if that's true, why don't you bloody well fix the private ones then if they are so inferior? Civil servants (except for a tiny few at the top of the food chain) are very limited in their income potential, so if their pensions are a bit generous compared to others, so what.

Finally, every concession ever made to any union was agreed to by management. But you never hear anyone complain about their performance. No, it's always the union's fault. Isn't that odd given that management was supposedly in charge?



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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12663 on: December 11, 2021, 09:43:05 am »

My last post answers most of your questions.  Here are the other clarifications.

First, the US does not require two parties.  There is nothing in our constitution that even mentions parties.  The reason there are mainly two parties is that our electoral system requires a 50% majority of electors to elect a president.  If we had numerous parties, no one party's candidate could get to 50% to elect a president and it would go to Congress to decide who the president is.  That has naturally forced the country into a two-party system although there are Independents like Sanders who is in neither main party but in his case with the Independent Party but votes with the Democrats.

This is why both parties tend to have extreme viewpoint members as they try to attract as many people as they can to get up to a majority vote.  In a parliamentary system, these "at the edge" political positions are fulfilled by separate minority parties.  In America, these people have nowhere to go except the main two parties.  Of course, each major party points to the extreme people in the other party to smear their party.  So the Democrats point to Nazis and white separatists in the Republican Party.  And the Republicans point to the Communists and Black Liberationists in the Democratic Party.  Of course, the majority of each party doesn't accept the views of their minority members.  But it's good for politics and fake news.

You've made this same argument several times in the past. I thought it was a crock then and I think it now.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12664 on: December 11, 2021, 10:03:10 am »


The idea that infrastructure spending is something for the unions and not for everyone's benefit is drivel. Sorry, but no sale. Why not say that everything that politicians do is to buy votes then? Even when they do things that everyone wants? You're just fitting all data points to the view through your lens.

As to your complaints about union benefits being too generous, I'll say a couple of things. One, if they are really too generous, time will fix that in various ways. After all, we live in times when some experts try to convince us that global monopolies are good for us. We'll see.

But the other thing I want to say about arguments like that is why do we always measure the benefits of union shops compared to non-union and conclude that the union shops are unfair. Why do we never come to the conclusion that maybe the private non-union shops are lousy places to work and that the level of benefits in them are pathetic. I've heard a similar argument with respect civil servants , that their pension plans are more generous than in the private sector. Well, then, if that's true, why don't you bloody well fix the private ones then if they are so inferior? Civil servants (except for a tiny few at the top of the food chain) are very limited in their income potential, so if their pensions are a bit generous compared to others, so what.

Finally, every concession ever made to any union was agreed to by management. But you never hear anyone complain about their performance. No, it's always the union's fault. Isn't that odd given that management was supposedly in charge?




No one said infrastructure is bad.  We were discussing why Biden favors unionized GM and not non-union Tesla. Unions have traditionally supported the Democratic party so Biden provides for them when he can.   

The problem with requiring government jobs like paving roads to unions only or at their prevailing wages, is it raises the cost of projects which already always go over budget.  We get less construction at more cost.  It's highway robbery.  :)

Most construction companies are non-union.  So the law discriminates against them and favors union shops.  Passing a law to force yourself to pay more than competition would determine is just stupidly wasteful.  The government is subsidizing union workers and the rest of the taxpayers are paying for it.  How would you like to be a New Yorker earning $50K and paying taxes to NYC government who pays plumbers $200K a year?  That's a lot of toilet paper.  :)

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12665 on: December 11, 2021, 10:57:20 am »

Trump has no power.  He's just another civilian.

There are none so blind... 

Trump is holding most of the Republican party hostage, whether you choose to believe it or not.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12666 on: December 11, 2021, 11:09:02 am »

There are none so blind... 

Trump is holding most of the Republican party hostage, whether you choose to believe it or not.

No big deal.  Former presidents do have some power over their party.  After all, they were the leaders of their party when they were president.   But I wouldn't call it hostage.  How do you think Biden got selected as the nominee to run for president?  Frankly, I'd like to see Trump go away and let some younger people move to the top.  Having one senile leader is enough.  :)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12667 on: December 11, 2021, 01:28:21 pm »

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12668 on: December 11, 2021, 02:05:56 pm »

Trump has no power.  He's just another civilian.

No big deal.  Former presidents do have some power over their party.

Anothe example:
She's my daugher.... She's my sister
Slap!
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12669 on: December 11, 2021, 02:13:28 pm »

The latest conspiracy theory, about birds this time https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/technology/birds-arent-real-gen-z-misinformation.html.
a few decades ago there was an organization established that was going to address naked animals. Their argument was it was immoral for animals to be running around with their stuff hanging out. They started a campaign to dress these animals.  Of course it was just a lark.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 03:27:44 pm by Alan Klein »
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12670 on: December 11, 2021, 02:19:44 pm »

The latest conspiracy theory, about birds this time https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/technology/birds-arent-real-gen-z-misinformation.html.
It's actually kind of an anti-misinformation movement.
I expect some however will buy into this as fact, like Windmills cause cancer and solar farms vaporize birds (one specific farm sometimes does).
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12671 on: December 11, 2021, 02:42:02 pm »

It's actually kind of an anti-misinformation movement.
I expect some however will buy into this as fact, like Windmills cause cancer and solar farms vaporize birds (one specific farm sometimes does).

Great send-up, made me laugh.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12672 on: December 11, 2021, 07:42:33 pm »

The latest conspiracy theory, about birds this time https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/technology/birds-arent-real-gen-z-misinformation.html.
I heartily recommend reading this.
Thanks for the link, Robert.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12674 on: December 14, 2021, 06:19:54 pm »

Voter fraud? Turns out to be real.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/12/14/florida-trump-supporters-arrested-charges-casting-more-than-one-vote-2020-election

And:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/12/09/trumps-voter-fraud-myth-dies-another-death-conservative-group-debunks-it-again/

A conservative group debunks Trump’s voter-fraud claims (yet again)

Quote
The latest example comes in Wisconsin, where the conservative Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty conducted its own 10-month review parallel to the one spearheaded by state legislative Republicans. Its report argues that certain procedures weren’t adequately followed. But on the big issue of voter fraud — the one Trump and his allies have hyped as proof that he actually won — the institute is pretty emphatic in its conclusion.
“There was no evidence of widespread voter fraud,” the report says.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12675 on: December 14, 2021, 08:19:26 pm »

As if Cuomo's sex charges aren't enough of a problem.  Frankly, most New Yorkers are more upset about his decision that led to the death of hundreds possibly thousands of elderly during the pandemic while the liberal press anointed him with awards and millions.


Cuomo Is Ordered to Forfeit Earnings From $5.1 Million Book Deal
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/14/nyregion/andrew-cuomo-book.html

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12676 on: December 14, 2021, 08:28:28 pm »

Frankly, most New Yorkers are more upset about his decision that led to the death of hundreds possibly thousands of elderly during the pandemic while the liberal press anointed him with awards and millions.
Frankly you don't speak for most New Yorkers. Are you even able to speak for yourself as a New Yorker? 🤔
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12677 on: December 15, 2021, 10:37:01 am »

Stupid American politics during the presidential election (Russian collusion) drives the Russians into China's hands. 

Putin and Xi cement partnership in face of Western pressure
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/russia-says-xi-backs-putin-push-western-security-guarantees-2021-12-15/

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12678 on: December 15, 2021, 11:07:17 am »

Stupid American politics during the presidential election (Russian collusion) drives the Russians into China's hands. 

Putin and Xi cement partnership in face of Western pressure
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/russia-says-xi-backs-putin-push-western-security-guarantees-2021-12-15/
Wow! Hard to believe you read this or hard to believe that you believe China or Russia are role models for human rights or democracies. Look at the stupid rant and where it came from. Oh, you did and posted anyway:
Quote
“At present, certain international forces under the guise of 'democracy' and 'human rights' are interfering in the internal affairs of China and Russia, and brutally trampling on international law and recognized norms of international relations," China's state-run Xinhua news agency quoted Xi as saying.
Thanks again for providing data with us about your strong opinion about a subject you’ve demonstrated you know nothing about: democracies and human rights in China and Russia.
Stupid American indeed!
Edit:
For you know who to ignore:

The House on Tuesday passed a bill that would punish China for its treatment of the country's Uyghur population following a bicameral agreement on the legislation.
Quote
The U.S. labeled China’s treatment of its Uyghur Muslim minority in Xinjiang as genocide in January, and lawmakers have been pushing a ban on imports of products made with forced labor by Uyghurs. China has dismissed the genocide charge, calling it a slanderous assertion about conditions in Xinjiang.
White House press secretary Jen Psaki said before Tuesday's House vote that Biden welcomed the compromise measure.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 12:49:11 pm by digitaldog »
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12679 on: December 15, 2021, 07:10:55 pm »

Voter fraud? Turns out to be real.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/12/14/florida-trump-supporters-arrested-charges-casting-more-than-one-vote-2020-election
Yup: new data:
Quote
An Associated Press review of every potential case of voter fraud in the six battleground states disputed by former President Donald Trump has found fewer than 475 — a number that would have made no difference in the 2020 presidential election.

Democrat Joe Biden won Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and their 79 Electoral College votes by a combined 311,257 votes out of 25.5 million ballots cast for president. The disputed ballots represent just 0.15% of his victory margin in those states.
https://thehill.com/homenews/presidential-campaign/585901-ap-finds-fewer-than-475-cases-of-potential-voter-fraud-in-six
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