Red too orange on Canon PRO-1000

[David Eckels]

The included image prints the Red/Magenta leaves of this Japanese maple orange using LR or Qimage with PRO-1000. I know that the leaves are OOG too, perceptual or relative, but bringing them back in with HSL sliders results in an unacceptable loss of contrast. I have noticed this with other images where the reds/pink turn out orange-ish. Soft proofing doesn't seem to help even though I am pretty sure I'm doing it correctly. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon and have you developed a systematic way to deal with it? I've read online that bumping the intensity of magenta  helps the reds, but that seems a little too ad hoc for me. Maybe I'm just SOL 
PS Working in ProPhoto at 16 bits throughout.

[John Nollendorfs]

David:
Saturated reds can be a problem to print. Do you have your printer profiled? A new Custom profile might help. The Hue Saturation sliders are your best bet. Maybe localize their application? Play with the Saturation controll. The other suggestion might be to localize the area and play with curves.

Good luck! A lot of tools to  work with, just a matter of finding the right one.

John

[rasworth]

David,

Downloaded your image into Photoshop, no embedded profile so I assigned sRGB.  My favorite printer/paper results in a fair amount of out of gamut via soft proof.

Perhaps you could post a higher res version, with a profile, so we know what you want it to look like.  It's a beautiful image, hope you can wrestle it into shape.

Richard Southworth

[digitaldog]

You should always test output using good color reference images designed for that task. The color reference images RGB values are such they are set for output and are editing and display agnostic. Test the output this way and examine for the same color issues so we know it's not your image specific issues causing the problems:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip

[David Eckels]

John, thanks for the encouragement! I believe I do have a good profile.
Richard, the posted image is sRGB. And thanks, that's why I don't want to give up and do want to learn something!
Andrew, I have your reference image and the easiest way to explain what I see at the top of page with the two color spectra (below b/w gradient), is that at the yellow end of the spectrum, the red looks orange-ish whereas at the magenta end, red looks a little "redder." In red square (3rd down, 3rd over to right) adjacent to ladies faces, it appears either dark or a little bit (very slight) purplish. It is possible my eyes are deceived because when I look a L*ab and RGB values, they are the same either end of the spectra. However, the "red" square has very different values so I think I am "seeing" OK.

However, if it is some sort of optical illusion, that wouldn't explain why the reds are OOG or, more importantly, how I unwittingly got them there!

[digitaldog]

If on my reference image, the red shifts to orange, it's the profile. You tried RelCol and Perceptual?

[David Eckels]

If on my reference image, the red shifts to orange, it's the profile. You tried RelCol and Perceptual?

My only caveat to that is I let the printer manage and tried relative and perceptual both. So no profile other than printer/Canon settings. I did some more work while you were "away." See below:

OK, I cheated
I moved the Version 5 Red Primary Hue to -15, which adds some magenta. Of course the screen image look somewhat "purple" but the printed image matches the unmanipulated original tif and to my eye, the reds now match. Not scientific, both monitor and printer are calibrated, but maybe not as good as they could be or maybe something else. Geez! Other colors seem fine (ie, monitor matches print).
I will be interested if Andrew has anything more solid to add. I am calibrating/profiling with an i1STUDIO and I can only get 100 patches; don't think there is a way to tease out a better profile. Other than send it to Andrew of course!
I feel like I am chasing my tail; time for an adult beverage!

[digitaldog]

My only caveat to that is I let the printer manage and tried relative and perceptual both.

Printer Manages Color? That's not the ICC profile path. If you want to test this correctly, with printer profiles and rendering intents, gotta be using Application Manages Color.

[David Eckels]

Thanks, Andrew. I printed the image using Qimage on Auto rendering setting on Canon Plus Semi-Gloss using the Canon driver for the PRO-1000. I should say that the print looks the same to my eye as when printed by my ipf8400 on Epson Luster roll paper with my own custom profile. Different papers, different profiles, different printers: All look the same. Below, I have included some phone images as explained:
1 The soft proof as seen on Qimage. The same OOG pattern shows regardless of rendering intent
2 The printed image as shown on my monitor. Low resolution view mode, but the colors don't change in high res view
3 Print and monitor calibrated at 80Cd/m2. The print looks a little yellow because I couldn't get the reflectance just right and take the picture at the same time
4 A shot of the print itself in the same light
I can clearly see the orange tinted reds in these four images in the yellow end of the spectra at the top and on the right side of the pattern below the ladies. If nobody else can see that difference, then it is clearly my own hallucination. Maybe Canon just doesn't do reds with the expected accuracy. Am I correct in thinking because two different printers look the same on two different papers, I have done my calibrations correctly? My monitor may be a tad off because I am getting to the end of my monthly routine and need a new profile, but I have worked on this image before and the reds look pinker to the same degree even with a fresher monitor profile.

PS Destination Gamut Warning pattern in LR is the same as that in Qimage (destination being the same printer profile relative or perceptual)

[digitaldog]

The OOG overlay is almost totally useless and meaningless.
What is seen on the display is also moot, it's what is on the print that I'm concerned with. And I can't see your prints without seeing them in person.
IF what should be red, shifts to orange, aside from some incorrect settings, it's the profile.

[vrkaya]

David,
I make art prints from original paintings and my process is to use the profile for “overall” first proof and then I like getting the original into PS where I can easily isolate the color at issue and adjust it there. I find this far more preferable with my process because I often work with prints that range from the coolest blues to the warmest oranges & reds. It may sound more time consuming in PS but it is also far more powerful and precise. I’m able to match many paintings this way and I prefer PS tools over Lr😉

For your situation, I would use a Hue/Saturation adjustment layer, isolate the reds with a mask (I use luminosity and color masks a lot) then adjust the Reds by shifting the Hue away from Yellow to remove the orange that’s not printing correctly.

Of course, I’m charging for the extra time using these methods but my customers want precise color match for their art and I’ve become rather fast at this.

Just an idea for you.

Regards, Ron

[vrkaya]

David,

I neglected to add that ~ for me ~ REDS often print a bit darker and less saturated then I want so I also increase the Lightness and Saturation in PS using the same mask.

I print with Epson P800 and my preferred surfaces are Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art paper and Epson Exhibition Canvas Matte. Dan Berg is on this forum and he has been very helpful during my own work with printing and I hire him for works too large for me to print FYI.

Ron

[David Eckels]

Thanks, Ron. I think that's a very good idea; nothing like test prints to dial it in and I will keep it in mind. I've used a similar approach copying some of my mother's oil paintings to good effect. I am going to pursue the profile angle in the near term as my calibrated monitor is giving me red just slightly to the magenta side, but the prints as noted above are slightly to the yellow.
Yes, just saw your follow up. Interesting that the reds are problematic. I'd assumed that if all the other colors looked fine, I should have them all dialed in. Assumptions!
Agree: Dan Berg is a terrific resource! Thanks for the advice, Ron.

[rasworth]

David,

Still messing around with your image.  After downloading I assigned sRGB to it, and started measuring the red areas.  Most pixels I checked were large values of red, medium-low green (e.g. 50) and mostly 0 blue, with a few in the 1-5 range for blue.  Not sure what your intent was with this particular image, but the "red" areas appear on my display as orange, and measure accordingly.

Richard Southworth

[David Eckels]

Yes! I had noticed that too, but didn't quite know how to interpret it. In those areas where I had "seen" more of a maroon color on my monitor, G values were somewhat lower and B values were higher (lower twenties) than those you reported. I was thinking that I would thus have more magenta, but I'd obviously neglected the yellow "cast" influence by the G channel. If I understand you correctly, R+G=Y and R+0.5G (or less)=orange. This must mean my monitor calibration is off because I am seeing on it less orange. I will have to think about how I can measure this on screen and compensate better. I am using the i1Studio and would think it should come together somewhat easier, but it turns into the proverbial three body problem of Physics! Thank you, thank you, Richard, for reminding me to pay attention to all the information presented me. On the other hand, I just realized I am using the Canon profile for Semi-gloss. Hmmmm. In this case good enough is not good enough and it seems I need to try a custom profile for the Canon Semi-gloss paper, too (Andrew said as much in #9 above).
Does this reasoning seem correct to you?
Andrew: BTW should I be using v2 or v4?

[rasworth]

I would not work with any printer profiles until I had the monitor correctly calibrated-profiled.  Yes, anytime an image in one of the standard color spaces has predominately red with green > blue pixels it's headed toward orange, blue must be > green to tend toward magenta.

Richard Southworth

[David Eckels]

So right, Richard. It seems to be turning out to be a profile problem (Seems Andrew is right, again ). Re-did the monitor; not a lot off, but just a bit. Working on the printer/paper profile next.

[digitaldog]

So right, Richard. It seems to be turning out to be a profile problem (Seems Andrew is right, again ). Re-did the monitor; not a lot off, but just a bit. Working on the printer/paper profile next.

The display is a rabbit hole at this point, as I outlined earlier:

What is seen on the display is also moot, it's what is on the print that I'm concerned with.

[David Eckels]

What is seen on the display is also moot, it's what is on the print that I'm concerned with.

Quite so, after all this, the print has been consistent through three different profiles: Canon canned Semi-gloss, my own profile made with i1Display, and my own optimized profile using the image file in the i1Display software. Further reading on the X-Rite site makes me wonder if the yellow areas in the image are pulling my perception of red more toward orange. However, I did take the color vision test on X-Rite and scored a perfect 0 so my perception is not radically off. I guess I will have to live with the fact that science, profiles, don't lie, at least in this case. Geez! I hope I learned something.
Thanks for all the help!

[vrkaya]

David,

I'm the same with being more concerned with the print colors. The profiles give me a good start but the wide range of saturated colors I print are challenging. I sometimes print 4-6 small proofs, carefully whittling away at the problem areas as I determine them. LR is really sluggish on my MacBook but PS is lightning fast.... so that is part of why I prefer PS. The very precise control of each color and the values in PS is great. In my area, I guess it is not the norm to proof so closely so that is helping drive more work my way. I'm also an artist so I do like the challenge of making a nice print for other artists.

I soft-proof in LR with settings I have become familiar with for each surface and then make the adjustments in the original....which is of course carried over into the LR Proof Copy. I've become used to it.

The results on the print are definitely what I'm after;)

Best wishes for your work!
Ron