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Author Topic: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?  (Read 5878 times)

Shrev94412

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What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« on: July 22, 2020, 09:44:12 pm »

So what am reading is that all the laser lightjet printers from Canon (formerly Cymbolic Sciences printers) and Durst are no longer made although this was/is probably the best Fine Art print machines ever made. Some are still in use by certain print shops. How do they get parts and service and for how long?  So what is today’s equivalent? Is anything even close?

Thoughts?
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Stephen Ray

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2020, 03:16:26 am »

Parts are still available mostly from cannibalized machines and a very few service specialists with certain tools. Lasers are still available and they have a shelf life. Blue is relatively short.

The modern replacement is along the lines of a Lumachrome.
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2020, 02:49:56 pm »

So why would someone be interested in a these anrchaic printers from so long ago? While they may have been state of the art, they still relied on photographic paper as the output media.

Today's inkjet printers have matured into very remarkable printing machines, capable of printing truly archival prints on so many different media.

The laser based enlarging machines are truly dinasaurs now. Must be very few labs that still have them and the photo paper processing machines to go with them.

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2020, 02:53:21 pm »

Today's inkjet printers have matured into very remarkable printing machines, capable of printing truly archival prints on so many different media.
With a wider color gamut too.
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Stephen Ray

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2020, 03:47:38 pm »

So why would someone be interested in a these anrchaic printers from so long ago?
As always; to sell something, to teach something, or just memories.
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digitaldog

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2020, 03:49:28 pm »

As always; to sell something, to teach something, or just memories.
And that's not possible with Ink Jet printers?
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deanwork

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2020, 08:33:34 pm »

I believe two of the reasons they survived so long are:

1. Giant color art photographs, many from scans of large format film negatives, and smaller digital files,  were very popular for gallery and museum exhibitions late 80s and 90s.  They were often inspired by the German Düsseldorf school and the California big print artists.
I had a discussion with Richard Misrach about all this in 2009 when he had a stunning show of his On The Beach work here at the high museum. These digital  c prints from Drum scans of 8x10 negs, which were part of the exhibition,  were just Ultra gigantic and tack sharp with no grain. But he said at that time he had moved on to digital Hasselblad and set up his own Epson 64 inch Epson inkjet, which although not capable of these extreme sizes, were far more permanent and he could do them in house.
The reason these supersize Lightjet prints were possible is you could send files a fraction of the size needed for comparable inkjet size prints. I mean you could use from 100 to 50 ppi files and still look amazing.

In the advertising world, which is much more significant as the dominant share of the market, eco solvent and dye sub printers have totally taken over that Lamda and Lightjet market.

Second reason is, for really big work they were relatively cheap to produce, especially in multiple editions, saving money for mounting.

But the world has has moved on. I mean people now realize type c paper is just junk in regard to long term longevity. Look at the Aardenburg data, it’s scary. Those even newer fade tests are even more revealing of how prints with the blend of dye brighteners and titanium white as used in c prints and rc inkjet prints will continue staining the white paper base in dark storage after being exhibited in daylight.

So, Rest In Peace C prints, and good riddance. I can’t tell you how many bodies of c print work from the  70s-90s I’ve been hired to rescan and reprint in the last 15 years because of paper base yellowing and color shift. I did two for a museum this week.  A whole generation of photography has deteriorated. Some of it has been redone with pigments but most of it is just gone. The Polaroid fine art prints like done on the  20x24 camera in Boston were even worse and collectors have a lot green worthless stuff on their  hands.

John



And that's not possible with Ink Jet printers?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 11:19:46 am by deanwork »
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enduser

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2020, 12:25:32 am »

The Dursts were continuous tone, as they said, "not colored dots".
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Ryan Mack

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2020, 07:03:39 am »

What about the chemically toned b&w prints you can do with these? I thought those offered higher longevity along with no bronzing or metamerism.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2020, 07:54:14 am »

I believe two of the reasons they survived so long are:

1. Giant color art photographs, many from scans of large format film negatives, and smaller digital files,  were very popular for gallery and museum exhibitions late 80s and 90s.  They were often inspired by the German Düsseldorf school and the California big print artists.
I had a discussion with Richard Misrach about all this in 2009 when he had a stunning show of his On The Beach work here at the high museum. These digital  c prints from Drum scans of 8x10 negs, which were part of the exhibition,  were just Ultra gigantic and tack sharp with no grain. But he said at that time he had moved on to digital Hasselblad and set up his own Epson 64 inch Epson inkjet, which although not capable of these extreme sizes, were far more permanent and he could do them in house.
The reason these supersize Lightjet prints were possible is you could send files a fraction of the size needed for comparable inkjet size prints. I mean you could use from 100 to 50 meg files and still look amazing.

In the advertising world, which is much more significant as the dominant share of the market, eco solvent and dye sub printers have totally taken over that Lamda and Lightjet market.

Second reason is, for really big work they were relatively cheap to produce, especially in multiple editions, saving money for mounting.

But the world has has moved on. I mean people now realize type c paper is just junk in regard to long term longevity. Look at the Aardenburg data, it’s scary. Those even newer fade tests are even more revealing of how prints with the blend of dye brighteners and titanium white as used in c prints and rc inkjet prints will continue staining the white paper base in dark storage after being exhibited in daylight.

So, Rest In Peace C prints, and good riddance. I can’t tell you how many bodies of c print work from the  70s-90s I’ve been hired to rescan and reprint in the last 15 years because of paper base yellowing and color shift. I did two for a museum this week.  A whole generation of photography has deteriorated. Some of it has been redone with pigments but most of it is just gone. The Polaroid fine art prints like done on the  20x24 camera in Boston were even worse and collectors have a lot green worthless stuff on their  hands.

John

Good summary I think.  What I recall is that the last decades they kept their value in printing bigger than possible with wide format photo inkjet printers + the Diasec face mounting of inkjet prints was not possible at all the Diasec shops. 

I was reading some old photography magazines and one article described the Photo Electronics Corporation, Lasercolor Lab machine. Company then based in Florida. While it did not print directly to photo paper but digitised slides by scanning and lasers printed that digital image to 70mm color negative film, it must have been one of the earliest semi digital processes using laser. Editing must have been limited though. Posterized images were shown and a crude edited image that did not print better in the magazine than the original did next to it.  I see in Wiki that the company was founded in 1963 by A.W. Dreyfoos Jr., the inventor.

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digitaldog

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2020, 08:25:04 am »

I thought those offered higher longevity along with no bronzing or metamerism.
Metamerism id good. 👍
Metamerism is a simple attribute: two (2) samples with different spectra compared to each other with a given set of viewing conditions, produce a match. Metamerism only applies to two color patches when they are compared to each other. It is incorrect to refer to one color from a given ink or paper and say that it suffers from metamerism. A "meterameric pair of color patches" means that they appear to match under a given illuminant. However, they may not appear to match under another illuminant. Metamers ("metameric stimuli") by definition are two different spectrums that appear to be the same color. If they don't look the same color, they are not metamers.

If you are viewing a print (lots of colors) and within differing viewing conditions, and there is a mismatch, this could be called a metameric mismatch or metameric failure. But its not metamerism. One sample (the print) compared to itself in differing viewing conditions, the proper term would be when they appear to match is color constancy and when they don't, color inconstancy. The lack of a defined term for the metameric mismatch is the problem.  "Metameric failure" is the best so far because it is unambiguous.
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deanwork

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2020, 09:54:27 am »

There are some out there who still believe gelatin silver bw prints are superior in tonality, longevity and tonal range but my opinion is that is ancient history.

There was some of those drawbacks years ago but I haven’t had those issues with black and white printing for at least 12 years or more and with Piezography longer than that.

I use mostly the HP Z printers for black and white, and with good profiling and good media they are the best, most controllable monochrome prints I’ve ever done, especially with these extended patch sets. With the gloss enhancer channel they are free of any bronzing and gloss differential. Most importantly it isn’t difficult or expensive. The color pigments also fade at the same rate which is unique to them.  I also use the Premiere Art uv spray to protect them even more. That works on all the pigment ink brands.

 The Canon gray inks I use are a little cooler requiring more color “dots” for total neutrality, but they are so minimal and not visible to the eye with my software unless you go too warm.

 I’ve found Epson monochrome with rips like QTR and Studio Print can also be excellent with very neutral and great warm neutral results. Split toning capability with Lightroom for instance is infinitely more subtle than the techniques we used to do in the darkroom.

Cones Piezography in various hues inksets have never had color shift issues and their gloss enhancer coat on gloss fiber media look just like silver prints. But except for the warm carbon set, not nearly as permanent.  I choose to use the carbon very warm set on matte papers that is more like palladium with better resolution and better dmax, especially with the new matte black. The permanence for that one is off the charts great.

Now for me the one thing that was interesting with silver prints is how they can look printed really dark. That’s their sweet spot where metallic silver has its own subtle beauty when clumped together. But the high values and high midtones lacked the control of inkjet digital by a big margin. I mean what we can do with a midtone contrast curve  adjustment is so much more subtle than even the most difficult chemical neg and print developer formulas or masking and darkroom manipulation . Of course most of that silver metallic beauty is invisible framed behind glass and they curl in portfolios.

Gelatin silver papers today are not the same as the silver rich papers we used in the 70s and 80s. And it’s basically just Ilford left for the very large sizes.

As far as longevity, once again look at the Aardenburg data. The standard Ilfobrome is loaded with optical brighteners mixed with titanium white which is a bad combination if you want your highlights to stay highlights without yellowing over time. That’s the dirty little secret, along with the fact that silver tarnishes over time. A number of my prints from the 70s have that metallic tarnishing around the edges, and many have yellowed borders. Stored in a museum context with temperature and humidity control they probably would have fared better. If I did silver prints today I would tone them with gold chloride like Gowin and Linda Conor did and use the warm Ilford paper. Gold won’t tarnish. The Ilford warm tone Ilfobrome has very little oba content if any and I think could last a long time. I don’t know if anyone has tested.

Where you get into trouble with monochrome inkjet is adding too much color ink for very warm or very cool prints. That is when metameric failure kicks in -  different under tungsten compared to daylight, but those kind of prints were never possible with gelatin silver anyway unless you used chemical toners,  which were fairly crude in many ways but could be very nice for some work. The other weak link is the papers. Inkjet receptor coatings absorb contaminants like a magnet. They need to be behind glass or stored away from contaminants. This is a pretty big deal. The best inks in the world won’t help you if you hang your prints naked or store them poorly.

I think now is the golden age of monochrome and it’s only going to get a lot better, IF the big companies want it to and if the economy supports it.

Hp has removed even their light gray with that dual drop tech and the results are amazing even with only 400 patch profiling targets. That kind of woke me up to the potential.  I wish I had a new Epson with their new denser black to play with in qtr.  I can’t comment on the new Canon bw because I haven’t seen it. I don’t know the current software options with those Lucia Pro inks. You don’t hear too many people talking about Canon bw these days.







What about the chemically toned b&w prints you can do with these? I thought those offered higher longevity along with no bronzing or metamerism.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 11:30:44 am by deanwork »
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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2020, 10:54:03 am »

I’ve found Epson monochrome with rips like QTR and Studio Print can also be excellent with very neutral and great warm neutral results.
Or if the Epson driver supports it, Advanced B&W or Epson Print Layout. Easy to get dead nuts neutral without metameric failure.
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deanwork

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2020, 11:17:15 am »

Yea it’s Much better than before. I used to hate ABW in the past. We called it almost black and white.

 But I did some Canson matte and platine prints on the P800 with it this past year and the neutrality, tonal ramp, and lack of any color shift was excellent. Warm neutral was also very nice.  I guess you can also make a linearization target to finesse a curve further, but for most people it’s fine out of the box it seems.

I wish I knew more about Canons latest software for monochrome but I never hear anyone discussing it, or anything about affordable rips for it out there.




Or if the Epson driver supports it, Advanced B&W or Epson Print Layout. Easy to get dead nuts neutral without metameric failure.
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Ryan Mack

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2020, 12:54:17 pm »

I wish I knew more about Canons latest software for monochrome but I never hear anyone discussing it, or anything about affordable rips for it out there.

On my Canon iPG-4000 I find the B&W lacking. Lots of color ink used and the "B&W only" mode just converts the input image to B&W but doesn't change the ink mixture at all. I also use ImagePrint with the printer and did not see any meaningful difference in the neutrality or color ink usage with their recent driver update to support B&W profiles on Canon. There may have been an improvement in the default linearization with the new ImagePrint Canon driver but I was really hoping for an improvement to the color ink usage.

My old Epson 3880 did better B&W in some respects, and I wished I had the time and excuse to upgrade it to Piezography inks but that printer just sits idle most of the time and it's not worth the headache to keep it running. The Canon is easier to keep running and definitely has improved resolution and color output. I gave up on maintaining my 3880 this week and finally moved it to storage so I could put some new speakers in the office where the printer used to be.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 12:58:17 pm by Ryan Mack »
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deanwork

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2020, 01:41:49 pm »

Thanks Ryan,

That’s what I was afraid of. The Canon bw software in the Ipf 8300/ 8400 series is nothing short of horrible in my opinion. Talking about metameric failure....and non-linear color casts...The Bowhaus company wrote a really great solution for it that you easily linearize yourself and save as “profiles” for each paper and color tone, but they never updated it for the new models. Now why wouldn’t Canon just pay them to do the work if they can’t figure it out themselves? So strange.



On my Canon iPG-4000 I find the B&W lacking. Lots of color ink used and the "B&W only" mode just converts the input image to B&W but doesn't change the ink mixture at all. I also use ImagePrint with the printer and did not see any meaningful difference in the neutrality or color ink usage with their recent driver update to support B&W profiles on Canon. There may have been an improvement in the default linearization with the new ImagePrint Canon driver but I was really hoping for an improvement to the color ink usage.

My old Epson 3880 did better B&W in some respects, and I wished I had the time and excuse to upgrade it to Piezography inks but that printer just sits idle most of the time and it's not worth the headache to keep it running. The Canon is easier to keep running and definitely has improved resolution and color output. I gave up on maintaining my 3880 this week and finally moved it to storage so I could put some new speakers in the office where the printer used to be.
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Ryan Mack

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2020, 02:20:40 pm »

Yeah, the non-linear color casts is what gets me the most. Switching to ImagePrint moved them around to different densities but they didn't go away entirely. And this was under good 4700K halogen bulbs. I can only imagine the shifts you'd get under random LEDs :-(
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Stephen Ray

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2020, 03:35:20 pm »

Hmmmm. After I offered some answers to the OP's questions with the first reply, the thread went tangential. However, some things to point out...

I strongly suspect the OP is wondering about the printing method in regards to a print as a product.

Especially regarding landscape prints as decorative furnishing products, color gamut wider than that offered from the RA4 process almost never enters the conversation when conducted by a decorator. Their aesthetic is something unto its own use case. Photographers sometimes make mention of wide gamut, especially those at flea markets.

Yes, inkjet printers can print on just about anything including black velvet much like the popular poker-playing dog collections.

So, to sell something, a musician decides to create a song with an acoustic guitar or an electric guitar which might have a volume setting of "11." The musician takes into account their artistic statement and market. A choice is appreciated.

To teach something, here in my local area, the two major photography colleges are still using Chromiras as part of their course. They teach inkjet machines as well.

As for memories, a whole generation of photography has not deteriorated. It's an exaggeration to think so. I'm privy to what some of the busiest companies preserving photo memories see as failure issues. Only a very, very small percentage is due to a C print process fault. Most failure of the process was the failure to properly mix and replenish chemicals and culprits were usually the small, independent 1-hour type of operation. So, it’s not the failure of materials as much, but their misuse. Thankfully, the vast majority of image quality failure is recoverable and most of that failure was initially caused by poor capture or poor color balance. Where a particular generation of photography might especially suffer is the periods just before, and just after, the iPhone was introduced. More captures were (and continue to be) either lost or deleted than we might imagine.

True archival. Seemingly always overlooked is the fact that a C print is almost never the master. The print was made from a film or digital file. Ponder the options as a business policy and one should arrive at solutions tended to decades ago by thoughtful professionals whether using the older photo technologies or the modern inkjet method of today.

The main reason the process is still around is simply because it's highly effective and profitable. It's been a surprising run. For every laser photo printer that has been made, there must be thousands more inkjet printers in landfills at this point. I mentioned that certain photo machines are salvaged for parts. I don't know of any inkjet machines salvaged for any part at all.

I personally operated all of the PEC machines that I'm aware of including the Kodak VCNA and PVAC. The Laser Lab was a kiosk for lobby customer's amusement and artists as well as a scientific analysis tool especially for aerospace at the time. The two color negative video analyzers likely processed either your school portraits or your children's portraits if schooled in the U.S. Minolta and Hazeltine analyzers were in the mix as well. School Pictures Incorporated actually fabricated their own paper processors. One might be surprised of how well most of those important prints have fared.

I suppose a takeaway might be to realize the C print may be considered as a mere proxy. The films and files are what really need to be in the vault. Studios offered to sell or archive negatives, enterprising photographers deliver 2-for-1, fire insurance pays for disasters, etc. It might behove one nowadays to have similar policies and options for their modern inkjet product.
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deanwork

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2020, 04:23:20 pm »

Yea, my bad for getting way off topic. I blame it this week on social isolation.....

Like I said, dye sub and eco solvent has taken over that market in the “decorator“ realm, Which is amazingly flexible in terms of the vast number of substrates you can print on like fabrics, metal ( super trendy now ) , any kind of uncoated paper media, plexi, wood,etc. Better color gamut also. They won’t last that long either but they don’t need to.

As someone who has done his share of big chemical color work, the toxic ( poisonous ) nature of it is more than enough to make it a thing of the past. It’s been years since I went into a chemical color photo lab but at that time the fumes made me feel sick in just few minutes. I don’t know how I could stomach it before,  bleach-fix, God. But if none of those things bother you, the absurd waste of water is probably the worst thing of all.





quote author=Stephen Ray link=topic=135680.msg1179819#msg1179819 date=1595619320]
Hmmmm. After I offered some answers to the OP's questions with the first reply, the thread went tangential. However, some things to point out...

I strongly suspect the OP is wondering about the printing method in regards to a print as a product.

Especially regarding landscape prints as decorative furnishing products, color gamut wider than that offered from the RA4 process almost never enters the conversation when conducted by a decorator. Their aesthetic is something unto its own use case. Photographers sometimes make mention of wide gamut, especially those at flea markets.

Yes, inkjet printers can print on just about anything including black velvet much like the popular poker-playing dog collections.

So, to sell something, a musician decides to create a song with an acoustic guitar or an electric guitar which might have a volume setting of "11." The musician takes into account their artistic statement and market. A choice is appreciated.

To teach something, here in my local area, the two major photography colleges are still using Chromiras as part of their course. They teach inkjet machines as well.

As for memories, a whole generation of photography has not deteriorated. It's an exaggeration to think so. I'm privy to what some of the busiest companies preserving photo memories see as failure issues. Only a very, very small percentage is due to a C print process fault. Most failure of the process was the failure to properly mix and replenish chemicals and culprits were usually the small, independent 1-hour type of operation. So, it’s not the failure of materials as much, but their misuse. Thankfully, the vast majority of image quality failure is recoverable and most of that failure was initially caused by poor capture or poor color balance. Where a particular generation of photography might especially suffer is the periods just before, and just after, the iPhone was introduced. More captures were (and continue to be) either lost or deleted than we might imagine.

True archival. Seemingly always overlooked is the fact that a C print is almost never the master. The print was made from a film or digital file. Ponder the options as a business policy and one should arrive at solutions tended to decades ago by thoughtful professionals whether using the older photo technologies or the modern inkjet method of today.

The main reason the process is still around is simply because it's highly effective and profitable. It's been a surprising run. For every laser photo printer that has been made, there must be thousands more inkjet printers in landfills at this point. I mentioned that certain photo machines are salvaged for parts. I don't know of any inkjet machines salvaged for any part at all.

I personally operated all of the PEC machines that I'm aware of including the Kodak VCNA and PVAC. The Laser Lab was a kiosk for lobby customer's amusement and artists as well as a scientific analysis tool especially for aerospace at the time. The two color negative video analyzers likely processed either your school portraits or your children's portraits if schooled in the U.S. Minolta and Hazeltine analyzers were in the mix as well. School Pictures Incorporated actually fabricated their own paper processors. One might be surprised of how well most of those important prints have fared.

I suppose a takeaway might be to realize the C print may be considered as a mere proxy. The films and files are what really need to be in the vault. Studios offered to sell or archive negatives, enterprising photographers deliver 2-for-1, fire insurance pays for disasters, etc. It might behove one nowadays to have similar policies and options for their modern inkjet product.
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Shrev94412

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Re: What Replaces The OCE Lightjet 430/500XL Laser Printer?
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2020, 11:12:32 am »

So what am reading is that all the laser lightjet printers from Canon (formerly Cymbolic Sciences printers) and Durst are no longer made although this was/is probably the best Fine Art print machines ever made. Some are still in use by certain print shops. How do they get parts and service and for how long?  So what is today’s equivalent? Is anything even close?

Thoughts?

Some excellent responses here but yes, many went off on a tangent. I do NOT claim by any means to be an expert in all the fine details of printing as many of you that have "worked in the business" of printing in a print shop environment. I praise your expertise and knowledge.

But, In my humble opinion, I have not produced or seen produced an Inkjet print in a large size say color 60x45 that even remotely compare to a Cymbolic Sciences/OCE Lightjet print on Fuji Crystal Archive Paper and mounted to OP3 Acrylic. The result is simply amazing. Of course art is subjective. With that being said my original post is actually 2 questions. Is there a long term possibility of continuing this process, say 10 years or more? I suspect the answer is until the world runs of laser heads, especially Blue.

The most important question is what is remotely close or better to achieving this same amazing print, with printers today, once these printers are gone? I understand Nevada Printers has a process they claim to be "as good if not better". Is there is a comparable printer, what is it and can it print a 60 inch print?

Why ask this question? What happens when I call my printer, or other Lightjet print shops and they say, "That Process is no Longer Available" as the machines have reached end of PART life."

If that happened today, what would be the best alternative print device to seek out?


« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 11:22:00 am by Shrev94412 »
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