Canvas - BC Lyve compared to Canson ProCanvas?

[billirwin]

Hi, for years I've used Breathing Color Lyve laminated with Aquathane as my standard canvas (printed via ImagePrint on an Epson 9800, using phatte inks).  I'm having trouble sourcing it easily right now though (supply issues in NZ) but I can get some Canson ProCanvas Matte 395gsm.  I've never used it, but generally find Canson media excellent.  Does anyone have any experience with both? I searched the forum and found a complaint about tight wrap on a 2" core, but any other experiences would be a huge help.  Thanks in advance, Bill

[mearussi]

When it first came out my one experience was bad in that it was so stiff it wouldn't lay flat (had a horizontal ripple) on my Epson 7800 and so produced horizontal banding. But that was over 5 years ago and hopefully that problem has been fixed.

I also tried Canson's Museum ProCanvas (comes in both matte and luster) which came out at the same time and loved it so much it's now my primary canvas (because it is 100% cotton it lays perfectly flat in the printer and has the finest weave I've seen and is also very soft and easy to work with). But its 100% cotton fabric also makes it more sensitive to mechanical damage and when I need a tougher canvas (for harsh environments) I use Lyve. 

[stockjock]

First let me say that I don't use canvas much at all.  I have generally not liked its look but based on mearussi's recommendation I did try the Canson Museum ProCanvas Matte and I have to say I liked it quite a bit.  It has a very fine texture and once you have coated it the texture is even less obtrusive.  It also coats well with a roller.  I tried a sample roll of Lyve and didn't like it as much though there wasn't anything wrong with it. 

I'm curious about your use of Aquathane instead of one of the acrylic based coatings.  I thought most of the polyurethane based coatings were slightly yellow but the Aquathane says it is a "blend of an aliphatic polyurethane dispersion with an acrylic polymer" so it seems to be a mixture.  Can you share why you chose it or is it just what you could source in NZ?

[billirwin]

When it first came out my one experience was bad in that it was so stiff it wouldn't lay flat (had a horizontal ripple) on my Epson 7800 and so produced horizontal banding. But that was over 5 years ago and hopefully that problem has been fixed.

I also tried Canson's Museum ProCanvas (comes in both matte and luster) which came out at the same time and loved it so much it's now my primary canvas (because it is 100% cotton it lays perfectly flat in the printer and has the finest weave I've seen and is also very soft and easy to work with). But its 100% cotton fabric also makes it more sensitive to mechanical damage and when I need a tougher canvas (for harsh environments) I use Lyve.

thanks for your feedback - yes I've heard good things about the Museum canvas, but these specific prints are going in to an office building so I need a bit of poly to help structure.  I might see if I can get a sample to check how stiff it is, doesn't like it was fun to work with.

[billirwin]

First let me say that I don't use canvas much at all.  I have generally not liked its look but based on mearussi's recommendation I did try the Canson Museum ProCanvas Matte and I have to say I liked it quite a bit.  It has a very fine texture and once you have coated it the texture is even less obtrusive.  It also coats well with a roller.  I tried a sample roll of Lyve and didn't like it as much though there wasn't anything wrong with it. 

I'm curious about your use of Aquathane instead of one of the acrylic based coatings.  I thought most of the polyurethane based coatings were slightly yellow but the Aquathane says it is a "blend of an aliphatic polyurethane dispersion with an acrylic polymer" so it seems to be a mixture.  Can you share why you chose it or is it just what you could source in NZ?

Thanks for your input.  Yes I'd personally rather print on a nice paper but a lot of prints I do are for office fit outs, and they nearly always specify canvas. 
I've used Aquathane for 10 years or more, never noticed any visible yellowing.  It's a product from GicleeMedia in Australia, who used to be Breathing Color's supplier there. I found it just so much easier to get a good coating job done than Timeless or any of the other brews.  I use an HVLP sprayer, give it one heavy coat, leave the canvas flat for a few hours and the coating levels beautifully.  I've found with others I needed two coats or more, when I'm doing big runs of prints it takes a lot of time.  I've also found no issues with cracking when stretching, an occasional problem I had with others.  The price is ok, so it's just been a matter of if it works well, keep on using it

[MfAlab]

I sell Canson Infinity MuseumPro and Breathing Color Lyve Canvas many years. Lyve Canvas has much better consistency. Canson always struggle on quality control, different raw fabric and gesso white for different batches. The CI's museumpro canvas is actually made in China as I know. But Lyve Canvas raw fabric is not OBA free. If you want a soft, all OBA free, consistence quality canvas, try the new Renaissance Cotton from Breathing Color.

[deanwork]

Well this is very interesting. I’ve been using Lyve since it came out and Chromata before that.
I believed them when they published in their chart that Lyve has NO oba content. That was very important to me.

After reading this post I put some sheets of Lyve under my black light exposure box and, guess what,  indeed it does glow, the obvious sign of dye optical brightners. This is as been a very dependable canvas but this is not good. No oba was their main selling point. I can’t believe I didn’t test it earlier! This is why we have to be vigilant and not  believe everything we read.

John

I sell Canson Infinity MuseumPro and Breathing Color Lyve Canvas many years. Lyve Canvas has much better consistency. Canson always struggle on quality control, different raw fabric and gesso white for different batches. The CI's museumpro canvas is actually made in China as I know. But Lyve Canvas raw fabric is not OBA free. If you want a soft, all OBA free, consistence quality canvas, try the new Renaissance Cotton from Breathing Color.

[shadowblade]

Well this is very interesting. I’ve been using Lyve since it came out and Chromata before that.
I believed them when they published in their chart that Lyve has NO oba content. That was very important to me.

After reading this post I put some sheets of Lyve under my black light exposure box and, guess what,  indeed it does glow, the obvious sign of dye optical brightners. This is as been a very dependable canvas but this is not good. No oba was their main selling point. I can’t believe I didn’t test it earlier! This is why we have to be vigilant and not  believe everything we read.

John

I just tried it with the back of a framed canvas - it definitely didn't glow.

I hope they haven't changed the formulation (either the receptor coating, the gesso or the underlying fabric) without telling us.

[deanwork]

Oba is in the receptor coating not the back. My test prints were a few years old, definitely dye brighteners.

I’ll try putting some older prints under the light tomorrow and I have a brand new roll that I’ll try also.

There is a formulation in a lot of the “Baryta” papers where titanium white TiO2 is mixed with oba and that can cause unnatural staining. I don’t know know if that’s what they are doing or not. But from what I can remember the Lyve tests at Aardenburg testing were pretty good. I’ll have go back and take a look. Thing is they are well protected with the very durable Timeless uv varnish, so that may contribute to BCs claimed 100 year rating. Could be their new canvas lasts twice as long as well as the Canon product.

I just tried it with the back of a framed canvas - it definitely didn't glow.

I hope they haven't changed the formulation (either the receptor coating, the gesso or the underlying fabric) without telling us.

[shadowblade]

Ignore my test - i pointed it at a T-shirt and it didn't glow either. Turns out it was just a purple light and not a UV light - my UV light must be in my camping kit somewhere.

Lyve tested very well, and Breathing Color papers (all of which presumably use the same receptive coating, on different substrates) have all tested at, or close to, the top of the range for each type of paper. And the advantage of the papers, at least, is that, unlike paper from some other manufacturers, you can get it to really soak up Timeless, making it suitable for frameless display.

The OBAs, if present and visible from the front of the canvas, would be in the gesso rather than the receptive coating - receptive coatings are transparent and shouldn't contain any OBAs anyway.

I hope I don't end up having to switch to Renaissance Cotton or Belgian Linen due to this - I like Lyve's poly-cotton canvas, since it is far more dimensionally stable than pure cellulose fabrics (less sag/stretch with humidity and temperature changes) and polyester deteriorates less and loses less strength than cellulose with prolonged UV exposure.

Oba is in the receptor coating not the back. My test prints were a few years old, definitely dye brighteners.

I’ll try putting some older prints under the light tomorrow and I have a brand new roll that I’ll try also.

There is a formulation in a lot of the “Baryta” papers where titanium white TiO2 is mixed with oba and that can cause unnatural staining. I don’t know know if that’s what they are doing or not. But from what I can remember the Lyve tests at Aardenburg testing were pretty good. I’ll have go back and take a look. Thing is they are well protected with the very durable Timeless uv varnish, so that may contribute to BCs claimed 100 year rating. Could be their new canvas lasts twice as long as well as the Canon product.

[mearussi]

The OBAs in Lyve are in the canvas not in the inkjet receptor coating. How that impacts its display life I don't know.

[deanwork]

According to Mark at Aardenburg, oba can be added to the coatings which is bad, or added to pulp when the paper is made, not nearly as bad.

It’s interesting how BC doubles down with this characterization on their blog.

https://blog.breathingcolor.com/optical-brighteners-in-prints/


I just pulled canvas prints and proofs going back 15 years. What I see is quite a bit of variation.

I’m seeing three degrees of glow with the Lyve canvas that have always been stored in a flat file. Some proofs I had that were not varnished are quite bright glow, others that were coated with a Fuji sprayer and timeless are far  less fluorescent, what I would consider negligible. And I’m seeing some inbetween, possibly less varnish, sometimes I would spray my proofs with Premiere Art.  I’m also seeing glow with the varnished Chromata but the unvarnished Lyve glows quite a bit more.

It should also be noted that heat can also change the “ whiteness” of media overtime. I’ve seen a lot of that with gelatin silver prints, what archivists call thermal fade.

My feeling now is three fairly heavy coats of Timeless should protect them.

To put in perspective, I looked at a non varnished test of Frederick 901 WR poly/cotton canvas and it explodes with burning white purple glow which is brighter than anything I’ve ever seen. Maybe 10 times brighter than the Lyve.

And I agree I would rather put three coats of Timeless on Lyve than switch to a 100% cotton that would be difficult to control when stretched.

John

The OBAs in Lyve are in the canvas not in the inkjet receptor coating. How that impacts its display life I don't know.

[mearussi]

According to Mark at Aardenburg, oba can be added to the coatings which is bad, or added to pulp when the paper is made, not nearly as bad.

It’s interesting how BC doubles down with this characterization on their blog.

https://blog.breathingcolor.com/optical-brighteners-in-prints/


I just pulled canvas prints and proofs going back 15 years. What I see is quite a bit of variation.

I’m seeing three degrees of glow with the Lyve canvas that have always been stored in a flat file. Some proofs I had that were not varnished are quite bright glow, others that were coated with a Fuji sprayer and timeless are far  less fluorescent, what I would consider negligible. And I’m seeing some inbetween, possibly less varnish, sometimes I would spray my proofs with Premiere Art.  I’m also seeing glow with the varnished Chromata but the unvarnished Lyve glows quite a bit more.

It should also be noted that heat can also change the “ whiteness” of media overtime. I’ve seen a lot of that with gelatin silver prints, what archivists call thermal fade.

My feeling now is three fairly heavy coats of Timeless should protect them.

To put in perspective, I looked at a non varnished test of Frederick 901 WR poly/cotton canvas and it explodes with burning white purple glow which is brighter than anything I’ve ever seen. Maybe 10 times brighter than the Lyve.

And I agree I would rather put three coats of Timeless on Lyve than switch to a 100% cotton that would be difficult to control when stretched.

John

I've not had any control problems when stretching 100% cotton canvas, in fact it's much easier to stretch than poly/cotton because it's softer and more pliable.  It's main drawbacks are being more sensitive to humidity changes and being not quite as tough in really harsh environments such as children's rooms where mechanical damage might occur. But if you don't like the canvas texture "look" then its much finer weave enables it to look more like a luster paper than canvas especially when properly coated.

When I do need a tougher canvas I do use Lyve as my backup, though I wish it didn't have OBAs in the canvas as I'd rather sell a 100% OBA free product (I also don't appreciate BC lying about it being OBA free as it makes me wonder what else they're lying about in their other products). 

[deanwork]

Depends on where it’s shown I guess. 100% cotton can change dimensionality after its stretched in humid environments and isn’t as tough. I can’t comment too much because I haven’t used an all cotton canvas, but it’s worth considering now. I agree with everything you just said.

John

I've not had any control problems when stretching 100% cotton canvas, in fact it's much easier to stretch than poly/cotton because it's softer and more pliable.  It's main drawbacks are being more sensitive to humidity changes and being not quite as tough in really harsh environments such as children's rooms where mechanical damage might occur. But if you don't like the canvas texture "look" then its much finer weave enables it to look more like a luster paper than canvas especially when properly coated.

When I do need a tougher canvas I do use Lyve as my backup, though I wish it didn't have OBAs in the canvas as I'd rather sell a 100% OBA free product (I also don't appreciate BC lying about it being OBA free as it makes me wonder what else they're lying about in their other products).

[MfAlab]

The OBAs in Lyve are in the canvas not in the inkjet receptor coating. How that impacts its display life I don't know.

I agree with that, as I said "Lyve Canvas raw fabric is not OBA free". Attached a spectrum reflection chart to show that.

[shadowblade]

I agree with that, as I said "Lyve Canvas raw fabric is not OBA free". Attached a spectrum reflection chart to show that.

This would also suggest that the front of the canvas - the inkjet receptor and gesso coating - does not contain OBAs, and that the OBAs which are present are only in the canvas fabric itself, which, unlike in a matte paper (which provides the underlying white or off-white colour to the print), only acts as a mechanical support structure, contributes nothing to the final appearance (except texture) and has no contact with the printed image.