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Author Topic: Multishot digital back  (Read 4756 times)

OlekVerze

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Multishot digital back
« on: May 29, 2020, 03:11:32 am »

Advise me a digital back multishot. I photograph art and paintings.
I would like to spend some money - up to 5000 euros. Apparently it will be Hasselblad?
Thanks for any thoughts!
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Joe Towner

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 11:34:52 am »

I would highly recommend you find the local Hasselblad dealer to start this discussion, or finding someone who you can work with that has one.  You really should shoot it in your studio/client environments before purchasing.

Are you looking for higher resolution or for color fidelity?  What are you currently shooting with?
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TechTalk

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 02:27:02 pm »

€5,000 is a tight budget for a medium format multi-shot back. There are options in this price range, but these would be older systems with less resolution.

I looked at the current Hasselblad EU CPO price list and they have two great deals listed. They have an H4D-200 MS (Kodak 50 MP CCD) for €6,900 or an H5D-200c MS (Sony 50 MP CMOS) for €9,900. These cameras include a body with individually calibrated back and viewfinder.

Either would deliver extremely good images at 50 MP or 200 MP resolution. The CPO models are all factory serviced and include a 6 month warranty. If you can extend your budget to include either of these options, I think it would be worth the extra investment.

https://www.hasselblad.com/certified-pre-owned/

http://static.hasselblad.com/2014/11/uk_h4d_200ms_v3.pdf

https://cdn.hasselblad.com/h5d-200c-ms_datasheet_en_v3.pdf
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 03:25:45 pm by TechTalk »
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OlekVerze

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2020, 06:51:52 am »

I would highly recommend you find the local Hasselblad dealer to start this discussion, or finding someone who you can work with that has one.  You really should shoot it in your studio/client environments before purchasing.

Are you looking for higher resolution or for color fidelity?  What are you currently shooting with?

Thank you for your attention to my question.
I am looking for color reproduction.
Now I'm shooting on IQ 280 and H5D-50c
They have a great color, but often I need more accuracy in this
Will I get a more accurate color with the H4D-200 MS?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 06:57:59 am by OlekVerze »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2020, 08:34:46 pm »

Thank you for your attention to my question.
I am looking for color reproduction.
Now I'm shooting on IQ 280 and H5D-50c
They have a great color, but often I need more accuracy in this
Will I get a more accurate color with the H4D-200 MS?

It's a myth that multishot helps with general/global/overall color accuracy.

Multishot can help with the color accuracy of specific subject detail in the case that the detail is 1) stochastic and 2) nearly exactly one pixel in size. So for example in a tightly woven fabric with randomly colored threads a multishot camera will more accurately render each fiber if you shoot it such that each thread is ~1 pixel in size. If you are not using a multishot camera, in that scenario, you can simply move a bit closer (such that the detail is more than one pixel in size) and stitch to capture the entire object. We have a free tool called  DT Batch Stitch to aid with that if you are doing it for a batch of different objects. Each of those two approaches (moving the sensor as in a multishot back, or moving the subject as in stitching) has pros and cons.

Multishot also does gain some resolution. You should measure yourself with an ISA Test Target or other FADGI/ISO/METAMORFOZE compliant target what amount of actual gain it provides, as even the slightest vibration of the camera or subject, or any mis-calibration of the camera can lead to considerably less resolution gain than advertised. Many comparisons you'll find published on the internet are comparing the multishot-mode and single-shot mode of the same camera, but forgetting that the manufacturers of multishot camera have significantly less-advanced raw processing math for single-shot captures. A more salient comparison would be a best-in-class single-shot raw to a best-in-class multi-shot raw; this will absolutely show advantages (assuming zero vibration, very good lens, ideal aperture, etc) – just much less advantage than you'd think based on the stated resolution of each.

In the last decade nearly all US institutions of cultural heritage have moved away from multishot cameras, which were, in the 2000s and into the early 2010s, quite popular in those settings. In that time improvements to single-shot resolution and improvements to single-shot raw file processing have made and potential advantage of multishot are nearly always far less important than other considerations.

If you do decide to get a multishot back, especially (though not exclusively) if you're buying it used, make sure to test for the proper calibration of the back and look, at 200-400%, carefully for any artifacts or banding, when using multishot mode.

If you're struggling with color accuracy with your IQ280 or H5D-50c I would suggest reviewing our DT Digitization Guide for Reflective Materials for a step-by-step workflow for both understanding, calibrating, and empirically evaluating color accuracy. I would also suggest BasIIColor which is referenced in those guides and the DT NGTv2 target developed with the Library of Congress. Elements of good color include a good sensor (you have two; the 80mp sensor was a hair better than the 50mp sensor, but both were very good by nearly any measure, meaningfully surpassed only by the 100mp, 100mp Trichromatic and 150mp sensors), good color calibration (BasIIColor or the art reproduction profiles in Capture One CH), and good illumination (strobe is good, better still is a flat spectrum high-CRI, high-CQS LED like the DT Photon XL). You should get *excellent* color results with your current gear if your illuminant is of high quality and your color calibration process is sound; if you aren't then I'd focus on that rather than a new camera, to improve your color accuracy.

Notably, color itself is a fickle beast. We did a free webinar recently with Dr. Wyble, on the nature of color and color measurement, specifically in the context of art and other CH institutional digitization; you can rewatch the recording here. The point being that some "problems" with color are inherent in what color is: a sensation of the viewer, rather than an objective characteristic of the object. Objects have spectral reflectivity, which our eyes/brains/minds process into the experience of a color; it's like if you could only hear an overall effect/feeling of a musical chord, and not the individual notes that combine to form those chords. Short of multispectral-based capture and spectrally matched physical reproduction no single-shot or multi-shot camera can resolve all "color problems" you might run into. Though, to be clear, 99% of the time the answer is not more complex than a basic workflow issue like white balance, even fielding, exposure, color profile, or method of proofing.

You may also find our DT Digitization 101 Online Class helpful, as this is a class that over 500 staff at Cultural Heritage institutions have taken as professional development. The 201 in-person class can also be recommended. Both of those classes focus more on library/museum/archive staff and the service bureaus that do work for them.

So in summary, I can reduce my advice above to
1) Test for yourself before purchase; do not take my (or anyone else's) word on what results you should expect based on the spec sheets
2) Investigate whether a change in your current workflow (profiling, illumination, even-fielding, proofing methods) can address your color issues using your current camera, before investing in any new camera

Bias Disclosure: DT chooses not to sell any multishot cameras, so must be considered biased.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 09:21:30 pm by Doug Peterson »
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TechTalk

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2020, 07:08:37 am »

Thank you for your attention to my question.
I am looking for color reproduction.
Now I'm shooting on IQ 280 and H5D-50c
They have a great color, but often I need more accuracy in this
Will I get a more accurate color with the H4D-200 MS?

You will absolutely obtain more accurate color with a multi-shot capture than you will with a single-shot capture. It isn't hard to understand why.

With a standard Bayer patterned sensor you capture only a fraction of the color at each of the sensor sites (pixels) on the sensor. 1/3 of the color is captured to be precise, the other 2/3 of the color that is missing has to be estimated by interpolating that missing color information from surrounding color data for each image pixel. I think most people realize this, but it seems to be glossed over sometimes when your being told that you don't really need multi-shot. And that's true, you don't need multi-shot; unless you're trying to achieve better image quality. When you are trying to achieve better image quality, having 3X more color samples is a great place to start.

Since we're covering first principles here (the foundation on which an image is built) let's take a 50 MP sensor single-shot capture. Your sensor captures 25 million green, 12.5 million red, and 12.5 million blue color samples, for a total of 50 million color data points in your RAW file from which to create an image. Now you capture in 4-shot mode with 100 million green, 50 million red, and 50 million blue samples captured. You have just captured 4X more green, 4X more red, and 4X more blue data points from your subject. The green color, which has been double sampled for each pixel, gets calculated into a single color data point per pixel; and you end up with 150 million color data points contained in your RAW file from which to create an image. Which do you think will produce a more color accurate representation of your subject, the capture with 50 million or 150 million color samples?

Now lets take your higher resolution 80 MP single-shot sensor which captures 40 million green, 20 million red, and 20 million blue samples for a total of 80 million color data points versus 150 million color data points for your 4-shot 50 MP capture. How do these compare? Well, here is a comparison of exactly that... https://web.archive.org/https://www.captureintegration.com/leaf-aptus-ii-12-hasselblad-4d-50ms/

And here are the images which you can see with a bit more detail (feel free to zoom in for an even better comparison)...  https://web.archive.org/https://captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/detail.jpg

Even with the 80 MP samples displayed at a larger size online, which do you think is providing more subtle color tonality? Which has better differentiation of similar but subtly different colors and which look one looks more homogenous where there are subtle tonal differences? Despite the fact that the online images are limited resolution, I think that you can see some real differences. But, draw your own conclusions. Do your own tests whenever possible!

I downloaded the Hasselblad RAW test file and opened it in Phocus. The image was shot in standard color response mode instead of one of the two reproduction modes and the images viewed online appear considerably smaller than 100% view in Phocus. If you should happen to download the file yourself and open it in Phocus, try changing the settings in the Reproduction tool from Standard to Reproduction or Reproduction Low Gain and Working Space from Hasselblad RGB to Hasselblad L* RGB for a better approximation of how an actual repro image would be normally captured.

The additional benefit from 4-shot capture is the increase in clarity by eliminating interpolation. With the addition of the 6-shot mode, additional resolution is gained with the added 1/2 pixel shift horizontally and vertically to give you a 200 MP image. Here is a single-shot, 4-shot, 6-shot comparison from a 50 MP sensor... https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2014/08/multishot1.jpg

And here is the 80 MP single-shot compared to 4-shot 50 MP...  https://web.archive.org/https://captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/chart_crop_large.jpg
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 03:28:37 pm by TechTalk »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2020, 03:19:41 pm »

Thank you for your attention to my question.
I am looking for color reproduction.
Now I'm shooting on IQ 280 and H5D-50c
They have a great color, but often I need more accuracy in this
Will I get a more accurate color with the H4D-200 MS?

Hey Olek, I have more questions than answers so far.
 
Are you shooting these in your controlled studio or working at a client locations?
Since you have both a Phase One & a Hasselblad, which color do you prefer?
How do you select which camera to use for a specific photo? 
Which color targets are you using in the current work flow?
What are you using to light the subjects?
Have you shot with the 100mp H6D-100c, or either the Trichromatic or IQ4 150mp?


How are you gauging color accuracy? On screen or on a print?
What are the end uses for the images you are capturing?

You can have a perfectly captured image, color accurate all the way to perfection, but how it's used could out of wack and not show the hard work you have done.

-Joe
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EricWHiss

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2020, 01:01:51 am »

I don't think there's a better file that I've seen than the older multishot backs even now. Every time I post to these forums something like that I'll get an e-mail from a dealer who sells new backs suggesting I try one of their new backs so FYI - I've seen the files played with the files and I'm still convinced that certain aspects of those multishot backs are superior.   I know that Phase supplies their backs with CFA that were a lot like the older kodak backs with not much overlap in the color filter choices but single shot is still interpolated.  Most backs with properly selected CFA can be profiled to have accurate color, but single shot backs can't really compete at things that have very fine color detail - and this fine detail makes up tonality when you step back and look at the full frame.  Modern backs will have better ability to raise the shadows in post, but actually so does multishot. My tests with a stoufer wedge and Imatest yielded about 1.5-2 stops extra photographic DR (single shot vs mulitshot on same setup).   If you've got $5000 to spend the idea about buying a modern back isn't going to work anyhow, but you could get a CF-39 mkii for that amount of money and fit it to whatever camera you like including view cameras.  You might be really amazed.   
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OlekVerze

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2020, 09:25:50 am »

Hey Olek, I have more questions than answers so far.

Are you shooting these in your controlled studio or working at a client locations?
Since you have both a Phase One & a Hasselblad, which color do you prefer?
How do you select which camera to use for a specific photo? 
Which color targets are you using in the current work flow?
What are you using to light the subjects?
Have you shot with the 100mp H6D-100c, or either the Trichromatic or IQ4 150mp?
How are you gauging color accuracy? On screen or on a print?
What are the end uses for the images you are capturing?

You can have a perfectly captured image, color accurate all the way to perfection, but how it's used could out of wack and not show the hard work you have done.

-Joe

I will try to answer
I work both in the studio and in the client location. Responsible work in my studio.
I do not prefer color - I use what is best for this task.
Each of the systems has its own strengths.
ColorCheker
Broncolor flash and Broncolor F-160 led.
No, I did not shoot with these systems.They are very expensive for the place where I live and will not cover the cost of their purchase
I do not rate, the client rates. There are different tasks - reproduction, shooting in a printed catalog, before restoration, shooting before online auctions.
May be. But I love my job and want to do it well. I love to know that as a photographer I did my best.

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Joe Towner

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2020, 12:12:26 pm »

Thanks for the information Olek,

I think the one thing I didn't state clearly is what is the possibility of trading in one a camera as a part of the upgrade.  So to trade in your H5D-50c on a H5D-200c MS (same sensor, just with multi-shot as an option).  Or trade in your IQ280 on a IQ3 100mp.  Or if everything is on the table, deciding on which platform you want to move forward with and trade in everything else.

Which camera are you using the most in the last 6 months - the IQ280 or the H5D-50c?  Both are great cameras, but understanding if there is a specific feature that you rely on more than any other would be helpful. 

Finding a Hasselblad MS shooter near you is going to be really important.  I would want you to shoot one how you currently are working before purchase.

-Joe
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OlekVerze

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2020, 02:46:37 pm »

Thanks for the information Olek,

I think the one thing I didn't state clearly is what is the possibility of trading in one a camera as a part of the upgrade.  So to trade in your H5D-50c on a H5D-200c MS (same sensor, just with multi-shot as an option).  Or trade in your IQ280 on a IQ3 100mp.  Or if everything is on the table, deciding on which platform you want to move forward with and trade in everything else.

Which camera are you using the most in the last 6 months - the IQ280 or the H5D-50c?  Both are great cameras, but understanding if there is a specific feature that you rely on more than any other would be helpful. 

Finding a Hasselblad MS shooter near you is going to be really important.  I would want you to shoot one how you currently are working before purchase.

-Joe

In the exchange program, I did not find the opportunity to exchange my H5D for a multi-shot. And I probably don’t want to buy H4D multi-shots for 7,000 euros with a six-month warranty, as Hasselblad offers.
I found the H3D - 39 multishot at a low price. He has a counter of 120 thousand. Has anyone had experience with this system? I have a few questions - will I get an image (color) better than on my H5D? What is the experience using this sensor? How many resource exposures does he have?

regards
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 04:23:52 am by OlekVerze »
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Colwyn

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2020, 07:32:06 pm »

Hey there,
I worked in a high-end commercial studio for 8 years shooting clothing & hard product for large multinational corporations. Colour accuracy was pretty important to the studio's survival. We always found that the multi-shot backs were the ones that could fix moiré, sharpness and some colour issues. This combo saved us money in the long run as we didn't have to slave over those issues in post production.  We used three different old multishot backs; the 13 year old Hassy H3 39MP-MS Dalsa, the 6ish year old H5D-50MS and a 10 year old 33 MS Sinar back. We found that the Sinar using Rodenstocks digital lenses on a Sinar p3-df performed better than the Hassy 39MS. Once we got the H5D-50MS though, we used it more than the Sinar because it offered equal colour performance and more resolution flexibility.  We also used a the lovely Leica 007 S (CMOS great sensor that was made in France or Belgium) and that was great for colours, but didn't perform as well as the MS backs when shooting tightly woven shiny fabrics. Their glass is special and on par with Rodenstock and the Schneider stuff.  I imagine a newer and used 50MP MS Sinar evolution by Sinar would be incredible, but probably over your 5000 budget.  I would just get Hassy's H4 or 5D 50MS and call it a day. That will get you close enough on the colour front and within budget.  If you can wait until the fall, resale values of MF producers; especially Hasselblad, will continue to diminish. We can all thank Fujifilm's re-entrance into the MF field for that! I think it is a matter of time before they make a multishot version of the GFX and control the market share for MF.  They were smart to renter when they did!
 
Finally, I would contact your local art/history/anthropology museums and speak with their photography departments. They will tell you what to go for why and what to avoid.

p.s That old Hasselblad 39 MS, pumped out over one million actuations before having go to Sweden for rehabilitation and maybe some therapy:) I am told it stiff works fine; but gets only light use as the 50MS is that studio's king now.

Good luck!
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OlekVerze

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2020, 04:27:09 am »

Great tip! Thank!
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Figolux

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2020, 08:48:09 am »

Single and multishot RAW files from our Sinar P3 + 54H or eXact to download:

Sinar RAW files

Here's a shot to show how straightforward it is to use a Sinar P3 + 54H + MacBook + 240v battery inverter "on-location".

« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 12:40:42 pm by Figolux »
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Dustbak

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2020, 06:45:13 am »

I have worked with MS backs for years starting with the Ixpress384 until the 50MS. Color accuracy is in my opinion better with the MS backs however color is also so depending on many other aspects that can totally screw up what your intention is, eg. the light that is being used to photograph, the angle of the light, the texture of what you are photographing, the material that is being photographed, etc.etc. Variables that can mess up stuff beyond the ability of MS to save your ass.

I have abolished MS in favor of a 100MP back (H6D100). I found I can tweak color almost always till the point my client believes it to be perfect. The ease of shooting the base material in one take instead of 5 (or even a lot more). 100MP I also found virtually eliminated moire. Moire used to be 1 of the prime reasons I used MS. MS very rarely showed moire and in the cases it did it was easy to get rid of.

So convenience mattered most in the end, having said that I sometimes still lust for the image quality that came out of the 50MS or even the Ixpress384. There is a 'freshness' in those images that is unique to MS.

If I would go for another MS system now, it would probably the 200MS. Preferably the H5 since that body is way more 'stable' than the H4. Knowing myself when I start to go that route I will probably end up with a H6MS system because that is the first H system I found to be almost flawless.

Oh boy, these ponderings are dangerous to my wallet.
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TechTalk

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2020, 03:12:19 pm »

Leica can now be added to the list of manufacturers adding multi-shot capability to their camera line. Leica firmware update 2.0 for the SL2 offers a 187 megapixel multi-shot mode.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/3218227484/leica-s-sl2-gets-187mp-multishot-mode-with-its-new-2-0-firmware-update

There is a YouTube video from Leica Camera Australia that shows examples... YouTube Leica SL2 Multishot Mode
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TechTalk

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2020, 03:35:29 pm »

In the exchange program, I did not find the opportunity to exchange my H5D for a multi-shot.

Hasselblad Trade-in Program information can be found on their website here... https://www.hasselblad.com/trade-in/

You can also find the link via their promotions page here... https://www.hasselblad.com/promotions/
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Dustbak

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2020, 05:39:16 am »

Hasselblad Trade-in Program information can be found on their website here... https://www.hasselblad.com/trade-in/

You can also find the link via their promotions page here... https://www.hasselblad.com/promotions/

According the article it is not working with flash? That would be a very big No No for me.
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TechTalk

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2020, 12:31:38 pm »

Leica can now be added to the list of manufacturers adding multi-shot capability to their camera line. Leica firmware update 2.0 for the SL2 offers a 187 megapixel multi-shot mode.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/3218227484/leica-s-sl2-gets-187mp-multishot-mode-with-its-new-2-0-firmware-update

There is a YouTube video from Leica Camera Australia that shows examples... YouTube Leica SL2 Multishot Mode
According the article it is not working with flash? That would be a very big No No for me.

I believe this is the article that you meant. Yes, the multi-shot cameras which use their IBIS and electronic shutter functions do not have flash sync capability. The multi-shot solutions from Hasselblad and Sinar use the conventional shutter and do have flash sync. I know that you are aware of this. Just informing other readers who may not be aware of this distinction.
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BobDavid

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Re: Multishot digital back
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2020, 01:17:11 pm »

I used a Hasselblad CF39-MS back mounted on a pancake camera as well as on an H body for many years, specifically for fine art repro. I retired that system years ago. Recently, I've been using a Sony A7r III in pixel-shift mode for repro work. In my opinion, the Sony files are better in terms of color science and dynamic range. The Voigtlander Apo Lanther 65mm lens is my go to lens for copy work.
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