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Author Topic: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions  (Read 3796 times)

dkaufman

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Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« on: May 17, 2020, 01:40:10 pm »

For years, Canson Inf. Photographique Baryta was my favourite paper and one on which I printed many exhibitions. I loved everything about the paper and was very upset when it was discontinued. Therefore, I could not wait to get my hands on the new version, Canson Inf. Photographique Baryta II, which I did this past week from Vistek here in Toronto (now also available from B&H in NYC).

I print on an Epson SC P-9000 and started doing my testing in the past couple of days. I am also testing Epson Legacy Baryta at the same time. My initial impressions of Canson Baryta II are, unfortunately, somewhat disappointing. I have made some test prints using Canson's supplied profile for the new paper and Epson's supplied profile for its paper. I also have printed targets for custom profiling which I will do in the next couple of days. My previous custom profile for the original Canson Baryta was slightly better than the Canson supplied profile, especially giving better yellows, but otherwise very similar. I must stress that though I have the Xrite i1Pro2 for monitor calibration and paper profiling, I have been a colour darkroom printer and now inkjet printer for more than forty years and therefore my most important evaluation is by eye.

In terms of tonality and contrast and overall colour reproduction, the original Canson Baryta and the Canson Baryta II are very similar and cannot be distinguished on that basis. That's the good news. However, the new Canson Bayta II is disappointing in two ways. The first is surface characteristics. The former Canson Baryta had a very fine stipple that was only visible at an angle to a strong light source and otherwise appeared smooth and felt smooth to the touch. There was no apparent texture, and the paper held its deep contrast at any angle to the light. The new Canson Baryta II has no stipple and a very subtle texture but at an angle to a light source the surface has veiling which significantly diminishes contrast. This veiling is reminiscent of the veiling in early generation resin-coated black and white darkroom papers, though perhaps not quite as strong. The veiling appears gradually which means it is partly present more than it should be at various angles to the light source. This is very disturbing.

The second issue with the new Canson Baryta is ink absorption. When the print is wet right after emerging from the printer and even after drying for twelve hours, the ink seems to deform the surface of the paper so that an image surrounded by a large white border appears sunken relative to the overall surface of the paper and appears to have deformed the paper slightly. This will not matter if a print is mounted on a good substratum, but a loose print will definitely show the deformation. This issue and the one mentioned above both mitigate against using this paper for fine art prints that are to be sold or exhibited, which is a problem for me. A third issue is paper brightness. Canson says the new Baryta II is very slightly less bright than the older Baryta. The difference in brightness  is barely visible if at all. I perceive a very slight difference in surface colour, which I am not sure of and cannot describe although it appears to me the new Baryta II is very, very slightly cooler in tone which masks any difference in brightness (also due to the texture).

As for Epson Legacy Baryta, it is in virtually all respects, save one, almost identical to the former Canson Baryta, and therefore a plausible substitute for it. The big difference is surface brightness which is significantly darker in the Epson Baryta compared to both the old Canson Baryta and the Canson Baryta II. The Epson Baryta looks more like a colour chromogenic darkroom paper with a slightly darkened white because of the emulsion coatings. It is not clear from Epson as to whether or not they had an issue of production similar to all the other manufacturers of Baryta papers which led to their discontinuance early in this year. So far, Epson Legacy Baryta seems to be available and in adequate supply in all roll sizes and there is no indication it has been reformulated. It is, however, about twenty percent more expensive than the Canson Baryta, which is relatively inexpensive compared to cotton rag papers.

So the choices for me don't look great: Adopt the new Canso Baryta ii with its significant surface issues or use the Epson Legacy Baryta (an d hope that it remains the same) with a visibly less bright surface which will make a difference in both colour and black and white prints. I would be interested in hearing of other Baryta papers, if available, that might compare.

David Kaufman (www.davidkaufmanphotography.com)
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Rand47

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2020, 09:44:20 am »

David,

Bummer.  I have some Baryta II on order to test as well.  This doesn’t bode well.  The barytas are also one of my favorite paper types.

I find the Epson Legacy Baryta pretty much identical to the Canson (version I) Baryta (I have not noticed the overall brightness difference you mention) and I actually use a custom profile I had made for both papers.  And, I buy it when there’s the frequent “Buy 3, Get One Free” Epson sales, which gets the price in the reasonable zone.  But, I’m not certain that Legacy Baryta survived the “mass extinction” of the barytas in general.  Red River San Gabriel Baryta II also “bit the dust” recently, along with Ilford’s Gold Fibre Silk.

It may be that there’s just more Epson Legacy Baryta “floating around” in existing vendor stock.

Thanks for sharing your test results...
Rand

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Rand Scott Adams

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2020, 11:21:30 am »

This is sad news indeed! And it could be why the Red River San Gabriel 2.0 replacement is delayed... Not good times for Baryta fans...
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2020, 02:45:36 pm »

For whatever reason there was a problem with virtually every manufacturers Baryta paper offerings.  There are some old threads here discussing that.  I have been using the "new" Moab Juniper Baryta and it seems pretty much like the older version.  I'm printing on a Canon Pro-1000 with the new Baryta driver setting.  I printed a patch set up for Mark McCormick-Goodheart to put into testing at Aardenburg so we will have some idea about print permanence.

Alan
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JRSmit

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2020, 02:47:38 am »

To my knowledge the Canson baryta and the Epson baryta (and other labels) all come from the same source, and over the years there were differences in the paper white. Basically it began with the demise of Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk.

Search for spectrumviz , you find a tool made by Ernst Dinkla, a Java Json tool, that has the paper white of some 500 papers.
For whatever reason, the production was stopped in 2019, and a while later the new version was launched.

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Jan R. Smit

sbay

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2020, 07:08:26 pm »

I finally got a chance to print on the Canson Baryta II paper after months of being backordered. Unfortunately I can confirm the surface characteristic change mentioned by David. The original baryta has a "sparkle" to it which is absent in the replacement. The new surface feels flat and dull.

I asked my wife, who is not a photographer, to compare two prints of the exact same image. The only difference was the paper (I vs II) and using the updated ICC profile (I think it might be the same profile just repackaged). She definitely prefered the original and when pressed mentioned the surface difference.

I will probably finish the box, but I will look for a replacement.

Does anybody if the manufacturing problem is going to effect Hahnemuhle's papers?

tharrington

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2020, 04:16:52 pm »

Ugh!  I too was really hoping for a better report on this paper. I’m thankful to everyone that has posted their first impressions. I’ve had a 44” roll of this paper waiting to be profiled and tested for a week or so as I finished up the last bit of Ilford’s GFS and Hahnemuhle’s Photo Silk Bartya.  Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I’m considering returning the paper as it is still unopened.  Would it be feasible for any of you that have commented on the surface properties to post an angled shot of the paper’s surface on which you’ve already printed?
Thank you!

Tripp
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JRSmit

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2020, 03:52:45 am »

Returning is the best option. Not yet found an alternative. I have still one 44” roll of the v1 , for specific customers.

I am still looking for alternative. Any suggestions?


Ugh!  I too was really hoping for a better report on this paper. I’m thankful to everyone that has posted their first impressions. I’ve had a 44” roll of this paper waiting to be profiled and tested for a week or so as I finished up the last bit of Ilford’s GFS and Hahnemuhle’s Photo Silk Bartya.  Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I’m considering returning the paper as it is still unopened.  Would it be feasible for any of you that have commented on the surface properties to post an angled shot of the paper’s surface on which you’ve already printed?
Thank you!

Tripp
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Jan R. Smit

guido

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2020, 06:51:12 am »

I've been learning to love mat papers again. Not an ideal solution...
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stockjock

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2020, 02:47:33 pm »

It has been a while since I have printed on any of the Baryta papers.  Canson and Epson Platine had become my standard higher end paper.  But I tried the Breathing Color River Stone Satin Rag 350 and absolutely love it.  The paper has a beautiful low gloss, very smooth surface that has less gloss differential than all the other satin/luster/gloss papers I've tried.  An added bonus is that the roll paper has minimal curl and flattens quickly.  That is probably due to the fact that both sides of the paper are coated which would allow you to print it double sided although I've never tried that.  However, that coating does mean the paper doesn't have that distinctive rough back surface which gives great hand feel for the cotton rag Platines. 

I still have many boxes and rolls of Platine to use up but I will definitely standardize on the River Stone Rag once they are gone.
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Panagiotis

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2020, 11:02:55 am »

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dkaufman

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2020, 09:33:56 pm »

Further to my original message and my first impressions, I have done more test prints on the Canson Inf Photog Baryta Version 2.

As i wrote in my original post, it's a good looking paper when considering tonality and contrast, very similar to the original Canson Baryta.

The issue of ink load and paper distortion is not a big deal. After a few days the paper dries pretty well and any distortion of the surface is quite minimal. I understand Canson now recommends trying a lesser ink load and making custom profiles to accommodate the change.

The characteristics of the surface, the slight texture and the "veiling" I referred, which appears as a bit of dullness and loss of contrast at some angles to the light source, may be no problem with certain uses. I find the "veiling" is an obvious issue with small prints held in the hand, especially when they are curled if printed from a roll. The paper is a little more difficult than the original Canson Baryta to flatten and seems to retain some curl for a long time.  However, large prints that are mounted for exhibition, and possibly framed, if illuminated by overhead lights such as gallery track lighting and viewed straight on, will not show the veiling, and therefore the paper may be completely suitable for such use. It's contrast and colour characteristics seem virtually identical to the original Canson Baryta.

Epson Legacy Baryta appears virtually identical with the original Canson Baryta except for having a very slightly darker white point (hard to see except by direct comparison) and the paper seems to hold a curl much. much longer. I still do not know if that paper remains in production or not. I also compared the new Canson Baryta Version 2 to Ilford Galerie Prestige Gold Fiber Gloss. The latter is a much shinier paper with a heavier texture. The Ilford paper looks great but has a delicate surface and also sheds a bit because of the rag base. It also flattens fairly well because of the rag base.

So far, Epson Legacy Baryta seems like the obvious replacement for Canson's original Baryta, if it is still in production. I am also going to look at Canson Baryta Prestige (which has a brighter white point and likely more OBAs) and some other papers.

David Kaufman (www.davidkaufmanphotography.com)
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Lessbones

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2020, 11:48:02 pm »

Thanks David for the detailed insights-- would you be able to post a picture of the two papers side by side?  Ideally something printed with the same image also with some paper white, maybe at a slight angle so we can see the sheen of the texture--

Epson Legacy Baryta is the same paper, so that should also become unavailable at some point-- same goes for Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta, and a lot of other OEM namings of the same paper.  The easiest way to tell if it's that same baryta is if it maxes out at 50" --  very few papers max out at this size, usually being instead 44" or 60".  As far as I can tell, any variations in white point would be due to batch to batch variations.
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BradSmith

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Rand47

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Re: Canson Inf Photographique Baryta II - First Impressions
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 12:05:13 pm »

Further to my original message and my first impressions, I have done more test prints on the Canson Inf Photog Baryta Version 2.

As i wrote in my original post, it's a good looking paper when considering tonality and contrast, very similar to the original Canson Baryta.

The issue of ink load and paper distortion is not a big deal. After a few days the paper dries pretty well and any distortion of the surface is quite minimal. I understand Canson now recommends trying a lesser ink load and making custom profiles to accommodate the change.

The characteristics of the surface, the slight texture and the "veiling" I referred, which appears as a bit of dullness and loss of contrast at some angles to the light source, may be no problem with certain uses. I find the "veiling" is an obvious issue with small prints held in the hand, especially when they are curled if printed from a roll. The paper is a little more difficult than the original Canson Baryta to flatten and seems to retain some curl for a long time.  However, large prints that are mounted for exhibition, and possibly framed, if illuminated by overhead lights such as gallery track lighting and viewed straight on, will not show the veiling, and therefore the paper may be completely suitable for such use. It's contrast and colour characteristics seem virtually identical to the original Canson Baryta.

Epson Legacy Baryta appears virtually identical with the original Canson Baryta except for having a very slightly darker white point (hard to see except by direct comparison) and the paper seems to hold a curl much. much longer. I still do not know if that paper remains in production or not. I also compared the new Canson Baryta Version 2 to Ilford Galerie Prestige Gold Fiber Gloss. The latter is a much shinier paper with a heavier texture. The Ilford paper looks great but has a delicate surface and also sheds a bit because of the rag base. It also flattens fairly well because of the rag base.

So far, Epson Legacy Baryta seems like the obvious replacement for Canson's original Baryta, if it is still in production. I am also going to look at Canson Baryta Prestige (which has a brighter white point and likely more OBAs) and some other papers.

David Kaufman (www.davidkaufmanphotography.com)

David,

Thanks for this update.  All of the “if, if, ifs” in terms of size, lighting, etc. while very helpful, are also very informative in terms of “why, why, why” would I bother when there are alternatives without all the “ifs”... (that’s supposed to be funny).  I’m reasonably certain that the Eposn Legacy Baryta is also victim of the “death of the barytas,” so I don’t think that’s going to be an option going forward.  Epson’s Legacy Platine and Ilford’s Gold Fibre Gloss have become my go to papers.  On the new Epson printers (75xx/95xx) I’m finding that lowering the “color density” by about -15% has not negatively impacted image quality at all, and has dramatically reduced paper swelleing / warping and an “embossed” look to the print when viewed off axis.  it is “essential” on my current stock of Legacy Baryta (though somewhat image dependent) and has become a default setting.  I’m currently testing reduced “color density” on Platine, GF Gloss, and Canson Baryta Prestige.

Rand
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