Any real measurement data on mirrorless sensor heating?

[digitaldog]

Do your homework and read the warnings in user manuals, mirrorless and DSLR's alike.

So those warnings are based on real measurement data? If so, we're done again (thankfully). And why ask a question that was answered in the user manual? Of course I will not get a logical reply.

Both types of cameras have higher levels of power dissipation in live view and video modes, the difference being that with DSLR's you can opt to use the optical viewfinder and thus lower power dissipations, while with MILC's you have to use live view. More power dissipation means higher temperatures, means higher noise, means lower dynamic range.

Then why your question, a year ago and again this week when you suggest you KNOW the answer while dismissing everything else you're told here (including Jims work)? Of course I will not get a logical reply. 
You know all the answers to the questions you ask, before you ask them
That agenda of yours rear's it's ugly head again: Warning Will Robinson.

[Frans Waterlander]

So those warnings are based on real measurement data? If so, we're done again (thankfully). And why ask a question that was answered in the user manual? Of course I will not get a logical reply. Then why your question, a year ago and again this week when you suggest you KNOW the answer while dismissing everything else you're told here (including Jims work)? Of course I will not get a logical reply. 
You know all the answers to the questions you ask, before you ask them
That agenda of yours rear's it's ugly head again: Warning Will Robinson.

Logical thinking isn't your strong suit either, apparently.
Those warnings are presumably based on real measurements, but the data is not published; get it? So no, the user manuals don't answer my question of what the real measurement data are.
Never suggested I know the answer, never dismiss useful information from others that want to help.
In case you wonder what the data I'm looking for might look like, here is an example. "Camera X from manufacturer Y has 14 stops of dynamic range when just powered up at room temperature. The dynamic range will degrade to 12 stops when used for extended periods of time in Live View mode at an ambient temperature of 80 degrees F and to 10 stops when used used for extended periods of time in video mode at an ambient temperature of 80 degrees F." Get it or should I spell it out with even more detail and electronics 101 background information?

[digitaldog]

Logical thinking isn't your strong suit either, apparently.

Actually I think my logic has illustrated you're not to be taken too seriously here and in the past and haven't been.

Those warnings are presumably based on real measurements, but the data is not published; get it? So no, the user manuals don't answer my question of what the real measurement data are.

Key word above is presumably. You think you know but clearly you're speculating. There's a warning. You've pointed it out. So perhaps you should take it seriously. Presumably you believe the manual, presumably you believe it was written without measurements which seems like another speculation of yours, but hardly prudent for ALL the camera manufacturers who've written the warning. You assume that such heat presumably affects DR. So your question was answered.

Never suggested I know the answer, never dismiss useful information from others that want to help.

You only know and accept what you want to hear. And anything else gets dismissed. Like the the way one can actually get actual measurements from metadata or how to measure DR. What you can't do is actually run your own tests. When someone like Jim does, you dismiss it on his site and here. That's all part of the agenda, and why again, you're not being taken seriously.

"Camera X from manufacturer Y has 14 stops of dynamic range when just powered up at room temperature. The dynamic range will degrade to 12 stops when used for extended periods of time in Live View mode at an ambient temperature of 80 degrees F and to 10 stops when used used for extended periods of time in video mode at an ambient temperature of 80 degrees F." Get it or should I spell it out with even more detail and electronics 101 background information?

Then if I write or someone else provides this and state it's from so-and-so you'll accept it? Of course you will not.
You presumably believe you're being taken seriously. Key words are presumably and believe.

Do you even own a mirrorless camera? Which one? Or do you simply need to know all cameras from manufacturer XY and Z has what number stops of dynamic range when just powered up at room temperature, then how much the dynamic range will degrade to X number of stops when used for all extended periods of time in Live View mode at an ambient temperature of all ranges of degrees F and to x stops when used used for extended periods of time in video mode at an ambient temperature of x degrees F?

You really do want a lot of answers from the members here let alone some site. No wonder you were not satisfied with DxO's analysis. Again, you should tell them what a poor job they are doing, then show them how you'd do it. And you should help them by going here: https://corp.dxomark.com/careers/ They are looking for a Display Image Quality Engineer. With your qualifications, I'm sure you can convince them to hire you and then report DR/Heat issues. Maybe they will take you seriously. 

[digitaldog]

Anybody aware of any real Photographs you've taken or shown, with a mirrorless camera or otherwise no matter the DR? Love to finally see some.

[Frans Waterlander]

It really is very simple, Andrew: manufacturers warn of overheating, image degradation, etc., particularly when using live view and video recording at elevated ambient temperatures, but they don't specify how for instance dynamic range degrades under those conditions. Curious minds want to know. Okay?
Unless you can help to get answers, stop your rambling.

[Jim Kasson]

Those tests are mostly aimed at astrophotography and don't cause a lot of sensor heating. Having live view on and shooting video for extended periods of time (when shooting sports events, etc.) would cause way more heating and dynamic range degradation.

If you find my test conditions not to your liking, you can easily do similar tests for yourself, and report the results here. All you need is a camera, a body cap, RawDigger, and Excel. The power dissipation with a dark field and a light field is not much different.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

It really is very simple, Andrew: manufacturers warn of overheating, image degradation, etc., particularly when using live view and video recording at elevated ambient temperatures, but they don't specify how for instance dynamic range degrades under those conditions. Curious minds want to know. Okay?
Unless you can help to get answers, stop your rambling.

Frans asked a legitimate and interesting question. Those participating in the thread, in particular the Jerk-in-Chief, have done nothing but bullied him or being a smart ass (apart from Jim). Put up (answer the question, if you know) or shut up.

[digitaldog]

If you find my test conditions not to your liking, you can easily do similar tests for yourself, and report the results here.

No he can't. And doing the actual work goes against the posting agenda. There are pages and pages of this posting agenda, some deleted from this forum, many not and on other forums to prove the posting agenda is to ask then argue. A sad call for attention. 😭

[digitaldog]

Frans asked a legitimate and interesting question. Those participating in the thread, in particular the Jerk-in-Chief, have done nothing but bullied him or being a smart ass (apart from Jim). Put up (answer the question, if you know) or shut up.

Then answer his question as sone of us have unsuccessfully tried.

[Frans Waterlander]

If you find my test conditions not to your liking, you can easily do similar tests for yourself, and report the results here. All you need is a camera, a body cap, RawDigger, and Excel. The power dissipation with a dark field and a light field is not much different.

Sooner or later my aging DSLR needs to be replaced, so I'm trying to learn all I can about the pros and cons of mirrorless. Manufacturers' user manuals and users warn about image degradation caused by sensor heating and elevated ambient temperatures, especially in live view and video modes. With a DSLR I have the option of not using live view, with a mirrorless I don't have that option. So, I'm trying to find out exactly how much degradation we are talking about for mirrorless cameras.

Since I don't have a mirrorless camera (yet), I can't do the tests myself. And no, I don't want to buy one and then find out if it works for me or not.

Your self-heating tests appear to be aimed at astrophotography where a small increase in temperature has a big impact on the already poor signal-to-noise ratio you start with at room temperature. Your tests mostly take one shot every 31 seconds so the circuitry is exercises once every 31 seconds. That's in stark contrast with using live view or video where the circuitry is exercised at least 30 times a second; that's a factor of at least 930! So heating caused by exercising the circuitry is going to be way, way more in live view or video modes.

The power dissipation in the photo diodes may not be very different between dark field and light field, but that power dissipation is dwarfed by the power dissipation of the rest of the circuitry. However, the power dissipation in the monitor or EVF would be much higher in light field mode since it would display a normally lit scene, rather than a dark scene, so light field would heat up the monitor or EVF more and contribute more to the overall system heat-up.

So, there you have it and I'm still looking for actual test data.

[digitaldog]

Rent. Find a VAR. Find a local camera club with others who have the camera you are interested in.
LISTEN to those of us that have mirrorless sensors and have reported no issues (and then consider listening to those with ACTUAL experience).

So, from where I sit, there are only the dire warnings in user manuals and the "I don't see a problem" from mirrorless camera users.

Get up from where you're setting, listen to those with experience if you can.
Stick with your aging DSLR. Tell us how you tested it for any real measurement data on sensor heating and how it affected DR. You did those test or found actual data on the web before you purchased that aging DSLR of course, right? 

[Jim Kasson]

Sooner or later my aging DSLR needs to be replaced, so I'm trying to learn all I can about the pros and cons of mirrorless. Manufacturers' user manuals and users warn about image degradation caused by sensor heating and elevated ambient temperatures, especially in live view and video modes. With a DSLR I have the option of not using live view, with a mirrorless I don't have that option. So, I'm trying to find out exactly how much degradation we are talking about for mirrorless cameras.

Since I don't have a mirrorless camera (yet), I can't do the tests myself. And no, I don't want to buy one and then find out if it works for me or not.

Your self-heating tests appear to be aimed at astrophotography where a small increase in temperature has a big impact on the already poor signal-to-noise ratio you start with at room temperature. Your tests mostly take one shot every 31 seconds so the circuitry is exercises once every 31 seconds. That's in stark contrast with using live view or video where the circuitry is exercised at least 30 times a second; that's a factor of at least 930! So heating caused by exercising the circuitry is going to be way, way more in live view or video modes.

The power dissipation in the photo diodes may not be very different between dark field and light field, but that power dissipation is dwarfed by the power dissipation of the rest of the circuitry. However, the power dissipation in the monitor or EVF would be much higher in light field mode since it would display a normally lit scene, rather than a dark scene, so light field would heat up the monitor or EVF more and contribute more to the overall system heat-up.

So, there you have it and I'm still looking for actual test data.

120 1-sec exposures, 30 sec apart. LV on the whole 2 hours:

https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-self-heating-read-noise-changes/

[Jim Kasson]

Sooner or later my aging DSLR needs to be replaced, so I'm trying to learn all I can about the pros and cons of mirrorless. Manufacturers' user manuals and users warn about image degradation caused by sensor heating and elevated ambient temperatures, especially in live view and video modes. With a DSLR I have the option of not using live view, with a mirrorless I don't have that option. So, I'm trying to find out exactly how much degradation we are talking about for mirrorless cameras.

Since I don't have a mirrorless camera (yet), I can't do the tests myself. And no, I don't want to buy one and then find out if it works for me or not.

Your self-heating tests appear to be aimed at astrophotography where a small increase in temperature has a big impact on the already poor signal-to-noise ratio you start with at room temperature. Your tests mostly take one shot every 31 seconds so the circuitry is exercises once every 31 seconds. That's in stark contrast with using live view or video where the circuitry is exercised at least 30 times a second; that's a factor of at least 930! So heating caused by exercising the circuitry is going to be way, way more in live view or video modes.

The power dissipation in the photo diodes may not be very different between dark field and light field, but that power dissipation is dwarfed by the power dissipation of the rest of the circuitry. However, the power dissipation in the monitor or EVF would be much higher in light field mode since it would display a normally lit scene, rather than a dark scene, so light field would heat up the monitor or EVF more and contribute more to the overall system heat-up.

So, there you have it and I'm still looking for actual test data.

Power dissipation a weak function of finder brightness.


https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a9-battery-drain-vs-display-mode/

[Frans Waterlander]

120 1-sec exposures, 30 sec apart. LV on the whole 2 hours:

https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-self-heating-read-noise-changes/

Thanks Jim. I overlooked "with the LCD on".
Any idea why you measured 11 stops EDR, when DxOMark measured 14.8 stops? That's a huge difference.

[Frans Waterlander]

Power dissipation a weak function of finder brightness.


https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a9-battery-drain-vs-display-mode/

Yes, finder brightness setting doesn't change power dissipation much when there is a dark field displayed, but a huge change (almost double) when the scan rate is changed, one of the points I made previously.

[Jim Kasson]

Thanks Jim. I overlooked "with the LCD on".
Any idea why you measured 11 stops EDR, when DxOMark measured 14.8 stops? That's a huge difference.

Did you look at the ISO setting? DXO normalizes.

[Frans Waterlander]

Straight from the a7RIV instruction manual, page 89:

"High-quality movie recording and high-speed continuous shooting require large amounts of power. Therefore, if you continue to shoot, the temperature inside the camera will rise, especially that of the image sensor. In such cases, the camera will turn off automatically because the surface of the camera is heated to a high temperature or the high temperature affects the quality of the images or the internal mechanism of the camera."

[digitaldog]

Straight from the a7RIV instruction manual, page 89:

"High-quality movie recording and high-speed continuous shooting require large amounts of power. Therefore, if you continue to shoot, the temperature inside the camera will rise, especially that of the image sensor. In such cases, the camera will turn off automatically because the surface of the camera is heated to a high temperature or the high temperature affects the quality of the images or the internal mechanism of the camera."

And before it shuts down (if it shuts down) KEEP shooting.
Kinda like when my Epson tells me my ink is low. I keep printing until it stops printing and not before; then I pop a new cartridge in and it continues to finish printing. I actually trust the manufacturer enough to keep using a product until the manufacturer stops me from doing so based on their own, proprietary knowledge of their products. But that's just me, I'm not an alarmist who believes in unfounded conspiracy theories that lack any proof or data (like Obamagate  ). 
It's nice my Sony might shut down if Sony feels it necessary. It's NEVER happened. So there's that too.

[Frans Waterlander]

And before it shuts down (if it shuts down) KEEP shooting.
Kinda like when my Epson tells me my ink is low. I keep printing until it stops printing and not before; then I pop a new cartridge in and it continues to finish printing. I actually trust the manufacturer enough to keep using a product until the manufacturer stops me from doing so based on their own, proprietary knowledge of their products. But that's just me, I'm not an alarmist who believes in unfounded conspiracy theories that lack any proof or data (like Obamagate  ). 
It's nice my Sony might shut down if Sony feels it necessary. It's NEVER happened. So there's that too.

Ever wondered what happens to the image quality before it shuts down? I guess not; ignorance is bliss.

[digitaldog]

Ever wondered what happens to the image quality before it shuts down? I guess not; ignorance is bliss.

It's better quality than after a shut down.
You seem so convinced of image quality sans proof and have NEVER shown us the ”quality” of your photographs. Yes indeed, you guess. 

”Sometimes wrong; never in doubt." -Atul Gawande