Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: Frans Waterlander on May 12, 2020, 07:06:35 pm
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A while back I tried to get hard data on sensor heating in mirrorless cameras and resulting noise increase/dynamic range decrease. I contacted DxoMark and a German test house, but they simply said they don't let the sensor heat up when doing noise/DR testing.
So, from where I sit, there are only the dire warnings in user manuals and the "I don't see a problem" from mirrorless camera users.
Anybody aware of real data?
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A while back I tried to get hard data on sensor heating in mirrorless cameras and resulting noise increase/dynamic range decrease. I contacted DxoMark and a German test house, but they simply said they don't let the sensor heat up when doing noise/DR testing.
So, from where I sit, there are only the dire warnings in user manuals and the "I don't see a problem" from mirrorless camera users.
Anybody aware of real data?
try www.photonstophotos.net - may be he can guide you to
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I believe I contacted Bill Claff in the past on this, but I'm not 100% sure. I just sent him an email to pick his brain.
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So, from where I sit, there are only the dire warnings in user manuals and the "I don't see a problem" from mirrorless camera users.
No. As explained the last time you asked. ;)
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/are-dslrs-doomed-tony-northrup-says-no.5515216/
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No. As explained the last time you asked. ;)
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/are-dslrs-doomed-tony-northrup-says-no.5515216/
And again, no hard data, just opinions.
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And again, no hard data, just opinions.
Based on experience from those you ask way, way back last May. :D
Would you like a different set of opinions from actual users since you last asked?
Maybe you should consider the sound advise from DxO who told you: don't let the sensor heat up when doing noise/DR testing.
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Based on experience from those you ask way, way back last May. :D
Would you like a different set of opinions from actual users since you last asked?
Read the heading of this thread: "Any real measurement data on mirrorless sensor heating?"
Is it too much to ask the folks that measure and publish dynamic range numbers to measure and publish dynamic range numbers for different ambient temperatures and operating conditions over extended periods of time? Apparently it is.
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Read the heading of this thread: "Any real measurement data on mirrorless sensor heating?"
You have such a camera? You have a way to measure heat?
"Any real measurement data on how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?" ;D
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You have such a camera? You have a way to measure heat?
Test houses such as DxoMark measure and publish dynamic range data, so I would think they can and should measure and publish dynamic range data at various ambient temperatures and prolonged use in various modes. Or might that be too upsetting for the various camera manufacturers?
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Test houses such as DxoMark measure and publish dynamic range data, so I would think they can and should measure and publish dynamic range data at various ambient temperatures and prolonged use in various modes. Or might that be too upsetting for the various camera manufacturers?
You should absolutely contact them again and notify them how to do their jobs properly.
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You should absolutely contact them again and notify them how to do their jobs properly.
So, you think that not testing and publishing dynamic range degradation at various ambient temperatures and prolonged use is proper?
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So, you think
don't waste time on Andrew
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don't waste time on Andrew
Good advise!
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I believe I contacted Bill Claff in the past on this, but I'm not 100% sure. I just sent him an email to pick his brain.
... did he reply ?
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Sounds like a reasonable request.
If many user manuals warn about it, and some cameras apparently shut down if overheated, there is a way to measure the temperature and, consequently, impact on image quality.
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Read the heading of this thread: "Any real measurement data on mirrorless sensor heating?"
Is it too much to ask the folks that measure and publish dynamic range numbers to measure and publish dynamic range numbers for different ambient temperatures and operating conditions over extended periods of time? Apparently it is.
Yes. And the reason for it should be obvious.
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So, you think that not testing and publishing dynamic range degradation at various ambient temperatures and prolonged use is proper?
Just tell us the answer you want to hear again. It will save everyone SO much time again. 😂
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My camera records temperature in the metadata and can be extracted with exiftool. I'm not sure the exact protocol photonstophotos and others use to get read noise, but seems like this should be doable oneself.
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... did he reply ?
Yes, he did and no, he hasn't done such testing. He may if and when he has access again to cameras.
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My camera records temperature in the metadata and can be extracted with exiftool. I'm not sure the exact protocol photonstophotos and others use to get read noise, but seems like this should be doable oneself.
Yup, in RawDigger (a must have tool), my Sony shows the following (I've filtered EXIF for "Ambient"):
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Yes. And the reason for it should be obvious.
And what, if I may ask, is this obvious reason?
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Yup, in RawDigger (a must have tool), my Sony shows the following (I've filtered EXIF for "Ambient"):
And how does this compute the dynamic range?
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And, if I may ask, is this obvious reason?
And off we go again.... :D
Warning Will Robinson, warning.
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As you can see Mr DP, he can’t help himself or take your advise. Or anyone who’s reply doesn’t fit the (ObamaGate) agenda.
And how does this compute the dynamic range?
Advise ignored as expected. :D
Silly questions that were never part of the discussion of getting temp from a camera's Metadata asked.
Good advise!
don't waste time on Andrew
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And how does this compute the dynamic range?
https://www.imatest.com/solutions/dynamic-range/
And off you go; test your camera! You know NOW how to get an Ambient temp, part 1.
You have a lot to study in the URL above to get part 2.
Do your own work, if you can, come back and tell us about real measurement data on mirrorless sensor heating. ::)
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And what, if I may ask, is this obvious reason?
Why do sensor tests get done, and posted on the internet?
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Why do sensor tests get done, and posted on the internet?
So people have information to compare cameras, have some idea of what to expect, base buy decisions on? Could we change the MO from questions to answers? Yes?
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Could we change the MO from questions to answers? Yes?
Take your pick (but all have come from the deep state so.... :o )
All cameras can over heat.
No cameras over heat until they do.
Your undefined camera (do you have a mirrorless camera and if so which one?) can over heat. You can avoid over heating if you try.
Don't store your camera in a 400 degree convection oven.
Maybe you should consider film. I always kept my film the refrigerator. Do let you film warm up.
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https://www.imatest.com/solutions/dynamic-range/
And off you go; test your camera! You know NOW how to get an Ambient temp, part 1.
You have a lot to study in the URL above to get part 2.
Do your own work, if you can, come back and tell us about real measurement data on mirrorless sensor heating. ::)
It appears that reading and understanding are not your strongest assets. If you want to make a positive contribution here, then go back to my initial post, read it carefully and let us know where to find the noise increase/dynamic range degradation test data for mirrorless cameras caused by sensor heating as a result of extended live view and video recording at various ambient temperatures.
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It appears that reading and understanding are not your strongest assets.
I could say the same of you after this exchange:
Good advise!
don't waste time on Andrew
Whatever site might be provided with advise, if it didn't follow your predetermined expectations, you'd tell us it wasn't a positive contribution. Many of us saw this a year ago on another forum after 10 pages of this silliness.
Nothing has changed since them. :'(
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I could say the same of you after this exchange:
Reread my previous post.
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Reread my previous post.
CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
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So people have information to compare cameras, have some idea of what to expect, base buy decisions on? Could we change the MO from questions to answers? Yes?
Do they do this out of the goodness of their hearts?
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A while back I tried to get hard data on sensor heating in mirrorless cameras and resulting noise increase/dynamic range decrease. I contacted DxoMark and a German test house, but they simply said they don't let the sensor heat up when doing noise/DR testing.
So, from where I sit, there are only the dire warnings in user manuals and the "I don't see a problem" from mirrorless camera users.
Anybody aware of real data?
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7rii-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7r-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-self-heating-read-noise-and-edr/
https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-self-heating-read-noise-changes/
Jim
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https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7rii-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7r-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-self-heating-read-noise-and-edr/
https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-self-heating-read-noise-changes/
Jim
Jim: Frans has already been there and dismissed your excellent reporting, (odd he doesn't recall this either or here that he apparently (?) did examine Bill Claff) but then you didn't tell him what he wants to hear:
Frans Waterlander says
September 13, 2019 at 2:44 pm
Thanks for running this test, Jim!
It looks like self heating isn’t an issue for this camera. I do have some observations:
– You measured an EDR of about 11.7, while Bill Claff measured a PDR of 12.3; isn’t PDR supposed to be lower than EDR? It would hope that the manufacturing process unit-to-unit variations would not explain this difference
– If the sensor would not be active during part of the 30 second cycle, you could improve the test by taking fewer shots
– What would be worse: using the monitor or EVF, photography mode or video mode?
– It doesn’t look like equilibrium was reached after one hour
While these results are encouraging for this particular, expensive, $10,000 camera , they don’t tell us to what to expect for other cameras.
Jim; please now test every mirrorless sensor on the market and please report back ASAP to Frans. ;D
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https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7rii-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7r-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-self-heating-read-noise-and-edr/
https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-self-heating-read-noise-changes/
Jim
Those tests are mostly aimed at astrophotography and don't cause a lot of sensor heating. Having live view on and shooting video for extended periods of time (when shooting sports events, etc.) would cause way more heating and dynamic range degradation.
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It would cause way more heating and dynamic range degradation?
You seem sure so you answered your own question as you wanted.
Hopefully we are done (all bets are off however 😜)
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It would cause way more heating and dynamic range degradation?
You seem sure so you answered your own question as you wanted.
Hopefully we are done (all bets are off however 😜)
I know you may have an issue with keeping on point, but I'm still looking for real measurement data, not snide remarks.
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I know you may have an issue with keeping on point, but I'm still looking for real measurement data, not snide remarks.
So you never found measurement data, but you're absolutely certain, because you said (copy and paste): Having live view on and shooting video for extended periods of time (when shooting sports events, etc.) would cause way more heating and dynamic range degradation.
I have to believe you have actual data to back that up otherwise, it's another of your assumptions about ALL mirrorless sensor heating. So which is it sir?
Seems asking you to prove yourself is very on point. ;)
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So you never found measurement data, but you're absolutely certain, because you said (copy and paste): Having live view on and shooting video for extended periods of time (when shooting sports events, etc.) would cause way more heating and dynamic range degradation.
I have to believe you have actual data to back that up otherwise, it's another of your assumptions about ALL mirrorless sensor heating. So which is it sir?
Seems asking you to prove yourself is very on point. ;)
Do your homework and read the warnings in user manuals, mirrorless and DSLR's alike. Both types of cameras have higher levels of power dissipation in live view and video modes, the difference being that with DSLR's you can opt to use the optical viewfinder and thus lower power dissipations, while with MILC's you have to use live view. More power dissipation means higher temperatures, means higher noise, means lower dynamic range.
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Do your homework and read the warnings in user manuals, mirrorless and DSLR's alike.
So those warnings are based on real measurement data? If so, we're done again (thankfully). And why ask a question that was answered in the user manual? Of course I will not get a logical reply.
Both types of cameras have higher levels of power dissipation in live view and video modes, the difference being that with DSLR's you can opt to use the optical viewfinder and thus lower power dissipations, while with MILC's you have to use live view. More power dissipation means higher temperatures, means higher noise, means lower dynamic range.
Then why your question, a year ago and again this week when you suggest you KNOW the answer while dismissing everything else you're told here (including Jims work)? Of course I will not get a logical reply. ;)
You know all the answers to the questions you ask, before you ask them
That agenda of yours rear's it's ugly head again: Warning Will Robinson.
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So those warnings are based on real measurement data? If so, we're done again (thankfully). And why ask a question that was answered in the user manual? Of course I will not get a logical reply. Then why your question, a year ago and again this week when you suggest you KNOW the answer while dismissing everything else you're told here (including Jims work)? Of course I will not get a logical reply. ;)
You know all the answers to the questions you ask, before you ask them
That agenda of yours rear's it's ugly head again: Warning Will Robinson.
Logical thinking isn't your strong suit either, apparently.
Those warnings are presumably based on real measurements, but the data is not published; get it? So no, the user manuals don't answer my question of what the real measurement data are.
Never suggested I know the answer, never dismiss useful information from others that want to help.
In case you wonder what the data I'm looking for might look like, here is an example. "Camera X from manufacturer Y has 14 stops of dynamic range when just powered up at room temperature. The dynamic range will degrade to 12 stops when used for extended periods of time in Live View mode at an ambient temperature of 80 degrees F and to 10 stops when used used for extended periods of time in video mode at an ambient temperature of 80 degrees F." Get it or should I spell it out with even more detail and electronics 101 background information?
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Logical thinking isn't your strong suit either, apparently.
Actually I think my logic has illustrated you're not to be taken too seriously here and in the past and haven't been.
Those warnings are presumably based on real measurements, but the data is not published; get it? So no, the user manuals don't answer my question of what the real measurement data are.
Key word above is presumably. You think you know but clearly you're speculating. There's a warning. You've pointed it out. So perhaps you should take it seriously. Presumably you believe the manual, presumably you believe it was written without measurements which seems like another speculation of yours, but hardly prudent for ALL the camera manufacturers who've written the warning. You assume that such heat presumably affects DR. So your question was answered.
Never suggested I know the answer, never dismiss useful information from others that want to help.
You only know and accept what you want to hear. And anything else gets dismissed. Like the the way one can actually get actual measurements from metadata or how to measure DR. What you can't do is actually run your own tests. When someone like Jim does, you dismiss it on his site and here. That's all part of the agenda, and why again, you're not being taken seriously.
"Camera X from manufacturer Y has 14 stops of dynamic range when just powered up at room temperature. The dynamic range will degrade to 12 stops when used for extended periods of time in Live View mode at an ambient temperature of 80 degrees F and to 10 stops when used used for extended periods of time in video mode at an ambient temperature of 80 degrees F." Get it or should I spell it out with even more detail and electronics 101 background information?
Then if I write or someone else provides this and state it's from so-and-so you'll accept it? Of course you will not.
You presumably believe you're being taken seriously. Key words are presumably and believe.
Do you even own a mirrorless camera? Which one? Or do you simply need to know all cameras from manufacturer XY and Z has what number stops of dynamic range when just powered up at room temperature, then how much the dynamic range will degrade to X number of stops when used for all extended periods of time in Live View mode at an ambient temperature of all ranges of degrees F and to x stops when used used for extended periods of time in video mode at an ambient temperature of x degrees F?
You really do want a lot of answers from the members here let alone some site. No wonder you were not satisfied with DxO's analysis. Again, you should tell them what a poor job they are doing, then show them how you'd do it. And you should help them by going here: https://corp.dxomark.com/careers/ They are looking for a Display Image Quality Engineer. With your qualifications, I'm sure you can convince them to hire you and then report DR/Heat issues. Maybe they will take you seriously. ;)
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Anybody aware of any real Photographs you've taken or shown, with a mirrorless camera or otherwise no matter the DR? Love to finally see some.
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It really is very simple, Andrew: manufacturers warn of overheating, image degradation, etc., particularly when using live view and video recording at elevated ambient temperatures, but they don't specify how for instance dynamic range degrades under those conditions. Curious minds want to know. Okay?
Unless you can help to get answers, stop your rambling.
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Those tests are mostly aimed at astrophotography and don't cause a lot of sensor heating. Having live view on and shooting video for extended periods of time (when shooting sports events, etc.) would cause way more heating and dynamic range degradation.
If you find my test conditions not to your liking, you can easily do similar tests for yourself, and report the results here. All you need is a camera, a body cap, RawDigger, and Excel. The power dissipation with a dark field and a light field is not much different.
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It really is very simple, Andrew: manufacturers warn of overheating, image degradation, etc., particularly when using live view and video recording at elevated ambient temperatures, but they don't specify how for instance dynamic range degrades under those conditions. Curious minds want to know. Okay?
Unless you can help to get answers, stop your rambling.
Frans asked a legitimate and interesting question. Those participating in the thread, in particular the Jerk-in-Chief, have done nothing but bullied him or being a smart ass (apart from Jim). Put up (answer the question, if you know) or shut up.
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If you find my test conditions not to your liking, you can easily do similar tests for yourself, and report the results here.
No he can't. And doing the actual work goes against the posting agenda. There are pages and pages of this posting agenda, some deleted from this forum, many not and on other forums to prove the posting agenda is to ask then argue. A sad call for attention. 😭
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Frans asked a legitimate and interesting question. Those participating in the thread, in particular the Jerk-in-Chief, have done nothing but bullied him or being a smart ass (apart from Jim). Put up (answer the question, if you know) or shut up.
Then answer his question as sone of us have unsuccessfully tried. (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=134951.msg1170712#msg1170712)
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If you find my test conditions not to your liking, you can easily do similar tests for yourself, and report the results here. All you need is a camera, a body cap, RawDigger, and Excel. The power dissipation with a dark field and a light field is not much different.
Sooner or later my aging DSLR needs to be replaced, so I'm trying to learn all I can about the pros and cons of mirrorless. Manufacturers' user manuals and users warn about image degradation caused by sensor heating and elevated ambient temperatures, especially in live view and video modes. With a DSLR I have the option of not using live view, with a mirrorless I don't have that option. So, I'm trying to find out exactly how much degradation we are talking about for mirrorless cameras.
Since I don't have a mirrorless camera (yet), I can't do the tests myself. And no, I don't want to buy one and then find out if it works for me or not.
Your self-heating tests appear to be aimed at astrophotography where a small increase in temperature has a big impact on the already poor signal-to-noise ratio you start with at room temperature. Your tests mostly take one shot every 31 seconds so the circuitry is exercises once every 31 seconds. That's in stark contrast with using live view or video where the circuitry is exercised at least 30 times a second; that's a factor of at least 930! So heating caused by exercising the circuitry is going to be way, way more in live view or video modes.
The power dissipation in the photo diodes may not be very different between dark field and light field, but that power dissipation is dwarfed by the power dissipation of the rest of the circuitry. However, the power dissipation in the monitor or EVF would be much higher in light field mode since it would display a normally lit scene, rather than a dark scene, so light field would heat up the monitor or EVF more and contribute more to the overall system heat-up.
So, there you have it and I'm still looking for actual test data.
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Rent. Find a VAR. Find a local camera club with others who have the camera you are interested in.
LISTEN to those of us that have mirrorless sensors and have reported no issues (and then consider listening to those with ACTUAL experience).
So, from where I sit, there are only the dire warnings in user manuals and the "I don't see a problem" from mirrorless camera users.
Get up from where you're setting, listen to those with experience if you can.
Stick with your aging DSLR. Tell us how you tested it for any real measurement data on sensor heating and how it affected DR. You did those test or found actual data on the web before you purchased that aging DSLR of course, right? ;D
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Sooner or later my aging DSLR needs to be replaced, so I'm trying to learn all I can about the pros and cons of mirrorless. Manufacturers' user manuals and users warn about image degradation caused by sensor heating and elevated ambient temperatures, especially in live view and video modes. With a DSLR I have the option of not using live view, with a mirrorless I don't have that option. So, I'm trying to find out exactly how much degradation we are talking about for mirrorless cameras.
Since I don't have a mirrorless camera (yet), I can't do the tests myself. And no, I don't want to buy one and then find out if it works for me or not.
Your self-heating tests appear to be aimed at astrophotography where a small increase in temperature has a big impact on the already poor signal-to-noise ratio you start with at room temperature. Your tests mostly take one shot every 31 seconds so the circuitry is exercises once every 31 seconds. That's in stark contrast with using live view or video where the circuitry is exercised at least 30 times a second; that's a factor of at least 930! So heating caused by exercising the circuitry is going to be way, way more in live view or video modes.
The power dissipation in the photo diodes may not be very different between dark field and light field, but that power dissipation is dwarfed by the power dissipation of the rest of the circuitry. However, the power dissipation in the monitor or EVF would be much higher in light field mode since it would display a normally lit scene, rather than a dark scene, so light field would heat up the monitor or EVF more and contribute more to the overall system heat-up.
So, there you have it and I'm still looking for actual test data.
120 1-sec exposures, 30 sec apart. LV on the whole 2 hours:
https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-self-heating-read-noise-changes/
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Sooner or later my aging DSLR needs to be replaced, so I'm trying to learn all I can about the pros and cons of mirrorless. Manufacturers' user manuals and users warn about image degradation caused by sensor heating and elevated ambient temperatures, especially in live view and video modes. With a DSLR I have the option of not using live view, with a mirrorless I don't have that option. So, I'm trying to find out exactly how much degradation we are talking about for mirrorless cameras.
Since I don't have a mirrorless camera (yet), I can't do the tests myself. And no, I don't want to buy one and then find out if it works for me or not.
Your self-heating tests appear to be aimed at astrophotography where a small increase in temperature has a big impact on the already poor signal-to-noise ratio you start with at room temperature. Your tests mostly take one shot every 31 seconds so the circuitry is exercises once every 31 seconds. That's in stark contrast with using live view or video where the circuitry is exercised at least 30 times a second; that's a factor of at least 930! So heating caused by exercising the circuitry is going to be way, way more in live view or video modes.
The power dissipation in the photo diodes may not be very different between dark field and light field, but that power dissipation is dwarfed by the power dissipation of the rest of the circuitry. However, the power dissipation in the monitor or EVF would be much higher in light field mode since it would display a normally lit scene, rather than a dark scene, so light field would heat up the monitor or EVF more and contribute more to the overall system heat-up.
So, there you have it and I'm still looking for actual test data.
Power dissipation a weak function of finder brightness.
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a9-battery-drain-vs-display-mode/
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120 1-sec exposures, 30 sec apart. LV on the whole 2 hours:
https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-self-heating-read-noise-changes/
Thanks Jim. I overlooked "with the LCD on".
Any idea why you measured 11 stops EDR, when DxOMark measured 14.8 stops? That's a huge difference.
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Power dissipation a weak function of finder brightness.
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a9-battery-drain-vs-display-mode/
Yes, finder brightness setting doesn't change power dissipation much when there is a dark field displayed, but a huge change (almost double) when the scan rate is changed, one of the points I made previously.
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Thanks Jim. I overlooked "with the LCD on".
Any idea why you measured 11 stops EDR, when DxOMark measured 14.8 stops? That's a huge difference.
Did you look at the ISO setting? DXO normalizes.
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Straight from the a7RIV instruction manual, page 89:
"High-quality movie recording and high-speed continuous shooting require large amounts of power. Therefore, if you continue to shoot, the temperature inside the camera will rise, especially that of the image sensor. In such cases, the camera will turn off automatically because the surface of the camera is heated to a high temperature or the high temperature affects the quality of the images or the internal mechanism of the camera."
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Straight from the a7RIV instruction manual, page 89:
"High-quality movie recording and high-speed continuous shooting require large amounts of power. Therefore, if you continue to shoot, the temperature inside the camera will rise, especially that of the image sensor. In such cases, the camera will turn off automatically because the surface of the camera is heated to a high temperature or the high temperature affects the quality of the images or the internal mechanism of the camera."
And before it shuts down (if it shuts down) KEEP shooting.
Kinda like when my Epson tells me my ink is low. I keep printing until it stops printing and not before; then I pop a new cartridge in and it continues to finish printing. I actually trust the manufacturer enough to keep using a product until the manufacturer stops me from doing so based on their own, proprietary knowledge of their products. But that's just me, I'm not an alarmist who believes in unfounded conspiracy theories that lack any proof or data (like Obamagate ;D ).
It's nice my Sony might shut down if Sony feels it necessary. It's NEVER happened. So there's that too.
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And before it shuts down (if it shuts down) KEEP shooting.
Kinda like when my Epson tells me my ink is low. I keep printing until it stops printing and not before; then I pop a new cartridge in and it continues to finish printing. I actually trust the manufacturer enough to keep using a product until the manufacturer stops me from doing so based on their own, proprietary knowledge of their products. But that's just me, I'm not an alarmist who believes in unfounded conspiracy theories that lack any proof or data (like Obamagate ;D ).
It's nice my Sony might shut down if Sony feels it necessary. It's NEVER happened. So there's that too.
Ever wondered what happens to the image quality before it shuts down? I guess not; ignorance is bliss.
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Ever wondered what happens to the image quality before it shuts down? I guess not; ignorance is bliss.
It's better quality than after a shut down.
You seem so convinced of image quality sans proof and have NEVER shown us the ”quality” of your photographs. Yes indeed, you guess. :D
”Sometimes wrong; never in doubt." -Atul Gawande
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Ever wondered what happens to the image quality before it shuts down? I guess not; ignorance is bliss.
If you look at my tests you can see what happens. No need to guess. Caveat: I didn't test video.
Jim
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It looks like the situation hasn't changed since I started to look into this a year ago; data on image quality degradation, due to sensor heating in e.g. live view and video modes, particularly for mirrorless cameras, is not available. Oodles of users reporting problems and user manuals warn of image degradation, but no hard data. For me, this is a major shortcoming of manufacturers, test houses and technical reviewers alike. If this situation doesn't change when I need to replace my DSLR, mirrorless cameras will be a no-go for me.
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No-go it is, Rodger that. Over and out? Good. ;)
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It looks like the situation hasn't changed since I started to look into this a year ago; data on image quality degradation, due to sensor heating in e.g. live view and video modes, particularly for mirrorless cameras, is not available. Oodles of users reporting problems and user manuals warn of image degradation, but no hard data. For me, this is a major shortcoming of manufacturers, test houses and technical reviewers alike. If this situation doesn't change when I need to replace my DSLR, mirrorless cameras will be a no-go for me.
You are ignoring the hard data that I've reported.
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You are ignoring the hard data that I've reported.
As predicted after many, many such episodes just like this. :'(
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You are ignoring the hard data that I've reported.
I'm not, Jim, but your published data on mirrorless cameras is limited to a handful of Sony's, one Nikon and one Fujifilm, all higher-end, expensive cameras, none include video mode and most don't specify if the camera was in EVF or LCD mode and if they were in the worst case EVF or LCD mode. Yes, your blog gives me more info than any other source, but it's not giving me warm, fuzzy feelings about mirrorless, let alone mirrorless cameras that would be more in my price range.
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Translation Jim (not that you need it):
”Your actual testing and actual data didn't state the results I wanted to hear before I asked the question.”
This behavior is well documented over the years here and elsewhere. Kudos for your hard work and for posting the results for others who take actual data seriously.
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Translation Jim (not that you need it):
”Your actual testing and actual data didn't state the results I wanted to hear before I asked the question.”
This behavior is well documented over the years here and elsewhere. Kudos for your hard work and for posting the results for others who take actual data seriously.
I think Jim can speak very well for himself, no need to continue your ramblings, Andrew. And yes, so far I didn't find the data I am looking for. Get over it and mind your own business.
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If you post here, it's my business.
"A fool despises good counsel, but a wise man takes it to heart." -Confucius
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If you post here, it's my business.
I wonder, did you run that by Jeremy?
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You wonder, indeed.
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You wonder, indeed.
I see; you are definitely not getting over it!
"Every body hates me and I deserve it." - Tijl Uilenspiegel
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I see; you are definitely not getting over it!
Nothing to get over.
I'm simply agreeing with you; you said you wonder, you said you guess. You wrote "presumably". Those statements are accurate.
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Isn't it interesting to see that the recently announced Canon R5 and R6 mirrorless cameras have significant overheating issues? Not only very limited video run times and long cooling down periods but also significant heating up when the cameras are switched on and not in video mode. But again, no image degradation data available.
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But again, no image degradation data available.
If some data were provided by (fill in the blank) would you accept it?
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Very good, Andrew, less than 10 minutes response time, while you were off-line when I posted! Of course, your "response" is totally useless.
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I didn't expect you could answer my question.
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I wonder, did you run that by Jeremy?
Why should he do that? I moderate, I don't censor.
If you post in a public forum, anyone who, having registered, is permitted to post is of course free to comment. "Mind your own business" is a spectacularly silly comment in the circumstances.
Jeremy
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Why should he do that? I moderate, I don't censor.
If you post in a public forum, anyone who, having registered, is permitted to post is of course free to comment. "Mind your own business" is a spectacularly silly comment in the circumstances.
Jeremy
How about repeated, personal attacks?
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How about repeated, personal attacks?
Indeed, just in this thread, thanks for pointing them out ;) :
I know you may have an issue with keeping on point, but I'm still looking for real measurement data, not snide remarks.
Do your homework and read the warnings in user manuals, mirrorless and DSLR's alike.
Logical thinking isn't your strong suit either, apparently.
Unless you can help to get answers, stop your rambling.
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Indeed, just in this thread, thanks for pointing them out ;) :
Look who's talking!
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Look who's talking!
As a wise man once said here:
” You appear to confuse argumentum ad hominem with simple abuse.”
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Enough of the ad hominem and simple abuse stuff. To determine if mirrorless is a viable option for me, I'm still looking for measurement data on mirrorless camera sensor heating. Anybody?
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Enough of the ad hominem and simple abuse stuff. To determine if mirrorless is a viable option for me, I'm still looking for measurement data on mirrorless camera sensor heating. Anybody?
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7rii-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7r-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-self-heating-read-noise-and-edr/
https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-self-heating-read-noise-changes/
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https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7rii-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7r-self-heating-for-long-exposures/
https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-self-heating-read-noise-and-edr/
https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-self-heating-read-noise-changes/
That's old and - regretfully - not applicable data. As I said before in this thread: "Those tests are mostly aimed at astrophotography and don't cause a lot of sensor heating. Having live view on and shooting video for extended periods of time (when shooting sports events, etc.) would cause way more heating and dynamic range degradation."
And Jim commented: "Caveat: I didn't test video."
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Enough of the ad hominem and simple abuse stuff. To determine if mirrorless is a viable option for me, I'm still looking for measurement data on mirrorless camera sensor heating. Anybody?
Have you tried making a photograph with a mirrorless camera and looking at it?
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That's old and - regretfully - not applicable data.
Indeed: reject actual, well structured and researched facts and data that doesn't confirm to an expected Confirmation bias (https://www.simplypsychology.org/confirmation-bias.html). Nothing new here.
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Have you tried making a photograph with a mirrorless camera and looking at it?
That would require effort (testing, examining). And it might result in seeing a result that wasn't predetermined prior to the testing. But yeah, it's a great idea, all one needs to do is find a good VAR, ask to examine the cameras for testing and come to a conclusion. Not in the cards..... :(
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Indeed: reject actual, well structured and researched facts and data that doesn't confirm to an expected Confirmation bias (https://www.simplypsychology.org/confirmation-bias.html). Nothing new here.
If you know of actual, well-structured data sources that include dynamic range degradation measurement resulting from working for extended periods of time in live view and video modes, then by all means share those sources with us.
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If you know of actual, well-structured data sources that include dynamic range degradation measurement resulting from working for extended periods of time in live view and video modes, then by all means share those sources with us.
Any you'd accept? Doesn't exist. ;)
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That would require effort (testing, examining). And it might result in seeing a result that wasn't predetermined prior to the testing. But yeah, it's a great idea, all one needs to do is find a good VAR, ask to examine the cameras for testing and come to a conclusion. Not in the cards..... :(
Measurements of this nature require an extensive test facility like those of DxoMark and other test houses.
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Any you'd accept? Doesn't exist. ;)
Show me the data.
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It looks like the situation hasn't changed since I started to look into this a year ago; data on image quality degradation, due to sensor heating in e.g. live view and video modes, particularly for mirrorless cameras, is not available. Oodles of users reporting problems and user manuals warn of image degradation, but no hard data. For me, this is a major shortcoming of manufacturers, test houses and technical reviewers alike. If this situation doesn't change when I need to replace my DSLR, mirrorless cameras will be a no-go for me.
I'm not, Jim, but your published data on mirrorless cameras is limited to a handful of Sony's, one Nikon and one Fujifilm, all higher-end, expensive cameras, none include video mode and most don't specify if the camera was in EVF or LCD mode and if they were in the worst case EVF or LCD mode. Yes, your blog gives me more info than any other source, but it's not giving me warm, fuzzy feelings about mirrorless, let alone mirrorless cameras that would be more in my price range.
To determine if mirrorless is a viable option for me, I'm still looking for measurement data on mirrorless camera sensor heating. Anybody?
Isn't it interesting to see that the recently announced Canon R5 and R6 mirrorless cameras have significant overheating issues? Not only very limited video run times and long cooling down periods but also significant heating up when the cameras are switched on and not in video mode. But again, no image degradation data available.
No, its clearly of no interest to you as both cameras are well outside your more modest price range. Shooting 8k has its own problems. Regardless, you started this in-depth investigation with ‘concerns’ over dynamic range. Now you’ve apparently moved on to motion and filming sports.
My suggestions to you are:
1/ Buy any entry level FF MILC and do your own tests if it’s that important. I doubt you’ll be competing with Gursky in the art sales, so there’ll be little DR variation, and almost certainly nothing that you’ll be able to discern.
2/ If you’re that interested in motion, buy a RED and be done with it.
3/ Stop trolling
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Show me the data.
Why do you need a camera? :o
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No, its clearly of no interest to you as both cameras are well outside your more modest price range. Shooting 8k has its own problems. Regardless, you started this in-depth investigation with ‘concerns’ over dynamic range. Now you’ve apparently moved on to motion and filming sports.
My suggestions to you are:
1/ Buy any entry level FF MILC and do your own tests if it’s that important. I doubt you’ll be competing with Gursky in the art sales, so there’ll be little DR variation, and almost certainly nothing that you’ll be able to discern.
2/ If you’re that interested in motion, buy a RED and be done with it.
3/ Stop trolling
Any chance you have knowledge of the data that I'm looking for?
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If you know of actual, well-structured data sources that include dynamic range degradation measurement resulting from working for extended periods of time in live view and video modes, then by all means share those sources with us.
See folks, predetermined confirmation bias and outcome before even testing or examining any data or doing any testing.
Yet another example of asking a question and the result being CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
See what's about to be posted if you don't believe me....... ;)
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See folks, predetermined Confirmation bias and outcome before even testing or examining any data or doing any testing.
Yet another example of asking a question and the result being CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
See what's about to be posted if you don't believe me....... ;)
Tell me where to find the information I'm looking for.
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Tell me where to find the information I'm looking for.
Tell me why you need it
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Tell me where to find the information I'm looking for.
It's all in your head Frans. Just tell yourself what you want to hear and maybe someone will parrot it for you. Then if you need a camera, go test one, or maybe even buy one assuming you need or use a camera.
You've been asking this question here, and on PhotoNet for like a year+. I suppose the need for a camera isn't that pressing. Meanwhile, the rest of us are making (or taking) images without all the CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
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Tell me why you need it
It's not the answers that are important for some postering agendas. It's the question and the attention from asking a question, again not any answers.
This is more aligned with such a concept and from someone the OP may consider a reputable soruce:
"Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know."
From: Donald Rumsfeld Wins 'Foot in Mouth Award'
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Tell me why you need it
Understand how much of a dynamic range degradation to expect under various operating modes with a mirrorless camera.
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I’ve owned micro four thirds mirrorless cameras for many years starting with the Panasonic G1.
My more recent cameras are Olympus EM II cameras. These have been used for tens of thousands of pictures, photographing weddings where the camera is in almost continual use for stills and video, and filming school stage productions where the camera is continuously used to capture video for 45-60 minutes at a time. I did not even realise that overheating was an issue. Perhaps I should have read the manual more thoroughly.
So I say that at least for m43 cameras, overheating is nota problem Frans.
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So I say that at least for m43 cameras, overheating is nota problem Frans.
Not a problem in what sense? Your cameras didn't shut down? You didn't notice image quality degradation? Good for you. However, my question is about having actual measurement data to see how much IQ degradation occurs under different conditions. I personally find it interesting that people buy and use cameras that may be prone to IQ degradation without them knowing any hard data. It would be nice if camera manufacturers, test houses and reviewers would generate actual data to show what to expect. But that's just me, apparently.
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Not a problem in what sense? Your cameras didn't shut down? You didn't notice image quality degradation? Good for you.
And the push back starts up again. Darn you Jim! ;D
I personally find it interesting that people buy and use cameras that may be prone to IQ degradation without them knowing any hard data.
So you don't own a camera huh?
IQ degradation that you've yet to find? Or test? Or show us?
It would be nice if camera manufacturers, test houses and reviewers would generate actual data to show what to expect.
Yeah, like a raw Histogram. Still, I've managed to buy dozens of digital cameras over the years without and actually be able to make images with them, and post them, print them, get paid to make them too.
Can we say the same for you sir? Do you even own a digital camera and do you ever produce images anyone can see from them heat from a sensor or otherwise?
Keep in mind, LuLa is a web site and forums FOR photographers. Last time I looked, that audience owned cameras and actually produced photo's.
Talk is cheap; but on a photography forum, some of us own cameras and make images with them instead of not doing so due to some perceived horror from sensor heat. Might consider giving that idea a try one day..... ;)
But that's just me, apparently.
Bingo! That should end this discussion (but it will not :'( )
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And the push back starts up again. Darn you Jim! ;DSo you don't own a camera huh?
IQ degradation that you've yet to find? Or test? Or show us? Yeah, like a raw Histogram. Still, I've managed to buy dozens of digital cameras over the years without and actually be able to make images with them, and post them, print them, get paid to make them too.
Can we say the same for you sir? Do you even own a digital camera and do you ever produce images anyone can see from them heat from a sensor or otherwise?
Keep in mind, LuLa is a web site and forums FOR photographers. Last time I looked, that audience owned cameras and actually produced photo's.
Talk is cheap; but on a photography forum, some of us own cameras and make images with them instead of not doing so due to some perceived horror from sensor heat. Might consider giving that idea a try one day..... ;)Bingo! That should end this discussion (but it will not :'( )
Pathetic pretty much sums it up.
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Pathetic pretty much sums it up.
A guy on a photo forum with no use for photography, indeed sir.
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But that's just me, apparently.
Apparently.
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A guy on a photo forum with no use for photography, indeed sir.
How do you come up with this nonsense? Been using cameras for 60 years and DSLRs for the last 15.
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How do you come up with this nonsense? Been using cameras for 60 years and DSLRs for the last 15.
Sure you claim, sure...
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan