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Author Topic: Breathing Color Crystalline  (Read 2620 times)

Jeremy Roussak

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Breathing Color Crystalline
« on: May 01, 2020, 08:06:29 am »

Advertising email from BC:

"17M and Crystalline are great time-saving canvas products that don't need a varnish; available in satin or gloss finishes. They're tough straight off the machine so can be stretched pretty much straight away and are ready to ship in no time. Print quality is excellent of course; exceptional for colour and black and white work. Your prints will look amazing without the extra work involved in applying a varnish which might be the difference between being able to fulfil an order or not."

I'd like to do some printing onto canvas, and I'd like to to gallery wraps, but I've been put off by the need to varnish.

These sound too good to be true. Are they?

Jeremy
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Jim Metzger

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2020, 09:37:17 am »

I have had a little experience with this canvas.  Breathing Color will create a custom profile for you for free. It was critical for my decades old Epson 7600 to get good color. They had great customer service to help me figure this out.

Check your printers autocut to see if it can handle canvas.

While you can print and mount without varnish I would recommend it anyway. Canvas is usually displayed without glass and the ability to wipe the surface periodically is comforting to my clients. I use their Timeless varnish with a relatively inexpensive HVLP gun that plugs into my shop air compressor. It can be rolled as well.
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routlaw

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2020, 12:05:51 pm »

I personally don't like canvas prints, but the many artist I work for do.

For years I printed with canvas that needed a final varnish coat or two and provided thousands of those. The problem is this is a very time consuming and expensive operation which you get paid less than minimum wage for plus the cost of the varnishing product which is $100+ per gallon. To do this properly one needs an HVLP spray gun system which are expensive and proper place to spray prints. I tried for a couple of years to roll the varnish on, its a mess and the results are not optimum by any means.

So once the Crystalline product came along I kept my eye on it to see how well it played out or didn't. A couple of years ago I decided to give it try and have never looked back. Artist like it and I have heard of no complaints at all. It is worth pointing out that Epson also has a canvas that does not need varnishing but it was much too thick and stiff for the artist to work with for stretching over conventional stretcher bars. It is possible to mount canvas prints on other substrates such as gator board but for what ever reason most artist have a notion that canvas prints "have" to be stretched.

Unless something changes for now I am sticking with the Crystalline Canvas and if an artist wants it varnished they can do it themselves. Its messy, caustic and not good for your lungs even if wearing a respirator. This holds true even for the aqueous coatings.

mearussi

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2020, 01:38:33 pm »

The glossy coating helps to protect it mechanically, but it actually does need to be coated to seal the micropores and even Breathing Color will recommend that if you ask them.

I personally don't care for the Crystalline as it looks like it's covered with highly reflective diamonds, making the image hard to see. I much prefer their Lyve canvas coated with glossy as it has a much smoother less specked surface. 

Roller coating does take a little effort but once you learn how is not that difficult. I use Premier Art's Eco Print Shield instead of Breathing Color's two varnishes because I find it easier to use.
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dgberg

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2020, 08:36:28 pm »

I personally don't like canvas prints, but the many artist I work for do.

For years I printed with canvas that needed a final varnish coat or two and provided thousands of those. The problem is this is a very time consuming and expensive operation which you get paid less than minimum wage for plus the cost of the varnishing product which is $100+ per gallon. To do this properly one needs an HVLP spray gun system which are expensive and proper place to spray prints. I tried for a couple of years to roll the varnish on, its a mess and the results are not optimum by any means.

So once the Crystalline product came along I kept my eye on it to see how well it played out or didn't. A couple of years ago I decided to give it try and have never looked back. Artist like it and I have heard of no complaints at all. It is worth pointing out that Epson also has a canvas that does not need varnishing but it was much too thick and stiff for the artist to work with for stretching over conventional stretcher bars. It is possible to mount canvas prints on other substrates such as gator board but for what ever reason most artist have a notion that canvas prints "have" to be stretched.

Unless something changes for now I am sticking with the Crystalline Canvas and if an artist wants it varnished they can do it themselves. Its messy, caustic and not good for your lungs even if wearing a respirator. This holds true even for the aqueous coatings.

Something not right if you are not making money doing canvas as it is very profitable. First having the right
Equipment is paramount to getting your product out the door profitably. Number one buying all your materials at the right price, stretcher bars included. We get a local amish millwork shop to run the 3 sizes we sell. Secondly I have a dual mitresaw and underpinner to cut and staple the corners. Takes about 7 minutes from stick to assembled frame. Next if you want to make money at this spraying beats rolling hands down from a time standpoint. In 15 minutes I can spray a half dozen 24x36 canvases. Finally a stretcher machine of some sort is the biggest time saver of them all. Really a must if you do much canvas. You may not have the room for all this but if you do the return rate can be in excess of $75.00 per hour on med and large canvases. I Stopped selling under 12x18 as small sizes take as long to make as medium size. Another option we use is drytac  vinyl over laminate applied with our Knight large heat press. Super strong, quick and inexpensive.
We print on matte canvas and control the final sheen with matte, satin or gloss spray or vinyl laminate.
Gloss canvas can be over double the cost Of matte and still should be coated, in my opinion.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 08:45:57 pm by dgberg »
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2020, 01:52:36 pm »

You're all way more sophisticated than I am.

I print for my own entertainment. I'll be using my venerable but still functioning Epson 3800. It has no roll feed, so I'll be cutting the canvas to size by hand and battling with the sheet feeder; and it has no cutter, so I needn't bother about that. I have no compressor nor HVLP sprayer and neither any intention of getting one or anywhere I might use it (particularly as I'd like to stay married). I'd considered rolling varnish, but I think my 110-year-old, carpeted house has too much dust for that to be viable.

I've ordered a roll of the satin finish stuff. It should arrive on Tuesday. I've also bought one of their supposedly easy-to-use stretcher kits. I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do.

Jeremy
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2020, 03:30:56 pm »

Jeremy, I'm in the same situation as you.  I don't sell, I print for my own pleasure.*  I have had great success rolling a coating on to Lexjet Sunset Production Matte canvas with a high quality foam roller.  I don't use the proprietary coatings, I use PVA glue (woodworking white glue).  It costs far less than proprietary coatings and dries absolutely transparent with low gloss.  I make my own stretcher frames from 2X3/4 inch pine. 

Some of my canvas prints are nearly 20 years old, are up to six feet wide and hang in direct sunlight.  No signs of fading or colour changes yet.

*disclaimer:  I have sold a few, but under duress.  My dentist hangs some of my work in his office, in return for which he fixes my teeth. :)
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routlaw

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2020, 11:50:01 am »

Been trying to get my Pro 4100 printer online and running so just now had a chance to get back to this thread. But that's another conversation for another time.

I agree with most of these comments but would like to add the following. The satin version produces far less speculate highlights than the glossy version of the Crystalline canvas. Viewed from a proper distance those specular highlights are not that obtrusive, however like mearussi states the Lyve canvas is totally immune to this with or without varnish. I used Lyve for many years and its a good product, and in many ways much easier to deal with so long as you don't mind varnishing.

What I recall from conversations with Breathing Color regarding the need to varnish Crystalline had more to do with preventing cracked edges while wrapping around stretcher bars, but perhaps things have changed, or at least BC's attitude regarding this has changed since my conversation with them.

As for rolling varnish much of the success will depend upon where you live in my estimation. But at a mile high elevation out west with humidity levels usually between 10-20% at best, I absolutely guarantee rolling any aqueous varnish without creating streaks on sizable prints will be near impossible. I tried this for years using every available brand at the time with modest success and only smaller prints, but by 16x20-ish or more its a nightmare and one will risk the chance of turning a print into a very rubbery thing by adding more coats to eliminate the streaks of the first coat or two.

The glossy coating helps to protect it mechanically, but it actually does need to be coated to seal the micropores and even Breathing Color will recommend that if you ask them.

I personally don't care for the Crystalline as it looks like it's covered with highly reflective diamonds, making the image hard to see. I much prefer their Lyve canvas coated with glossy as it has a much smoother less specked surface. 

Roller coating does take a little effort but once you learn how is not that difficult. I use Premier Art's Eco Print Shield instead of Breathing Color's two varnishes because I find it easier to use.

dgberg

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2020, 12:04:55 pm »

Have you tried really light coats and I mean light? The biggest issue with roll on varnish is over coating. After the first light coat let it dry and then coat again.
I know there are many videos that show varnishing technique. Way too many put much more varnish than is required. Same with spraying, light coats.
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routlaw

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2020, 12:11:14 pm »

I think you might have misunderstood my statement or intent, perhaps because it was poorly written.

What I meant regarding profitability was directed at applying varnish to finished prints, not the actual production of prints themselves, canvas or paper. Yes you can, and I have, made decent income making prints just not the aspect of applying varnish to prints. FWIW, I have never been able to do a half dozen or so prints in the 2x3 foot size in 15 minutes or less, so I have to assume you have some heck of a facility to accomplish this. Certainly better than mine. Regardless even if you can spray the prints this quick there is more to the story whether using an HVLP spray gun, rolling or what ever method is chosen. There is significant time in cleanup, preparation, the cost of maintaining a space to do this and the list goes on. While I have made good profit from producing prints its highly unlikely I paid myself $5 per hour to varnish when everything is taken into consideration.

As for the other aspects of stretching, framing et al this is not a business model that holds any interest for me even if I had the space or equipment, but it appears you do and like it. Thats great. From my perspective artist have been stretching canvas prints, varnishing originals and doing what ever is necessary to prepare their work for the market. Adding a few more prints to be varnished should be small potatoes for them. Clearly they all don't think this way and many artist have chosen to go the route of online ordering where everything (printing, varnishing, stretching, framing perhaps and shipping) is taken care of in one fell swoop as you pointed out in another thread on this forum. Things change and thats fine too. I'm just not going there at this point in my life, but will continue to make high quality prints for whomever needs it.

Hope this helps.

Something not right if you are not making money doing canvas as it is very profitable. First having the right
Equipment is paramount to getting your product out the door profitably. Number one buying all your materials at the right price, stretcher bars included. We get a local amish millwork shop to run the 3 sizes we sell. Secondly I have a dual mitresaw and underpinner to cut and staple the corners. Takes about 7 minutes from stick to assembled frame. Next if you want to make money at this spraying beats rolling hands down from a time standpoint. In 15 minutes I can spray a half dozen 24x36 canvases. Finally a stretcher machine of some sort is the biggest time saver of them all. Really a must if you do much canvas. You may not have the room for all this but if you do the return rate can be in excess of $75.00 per hour on med and large canvases. I Stopped selling under 12x18 as small sizes take as long to make as medium size. Another option we use is drytac  vinyl over laminate applied with our Knight large heat press. Super strong, quick and inexpensive.
We print on matte canvas and control the final sheen with matte, satin or gloss spray or vinyl laminate.
Gloss canvas can be over double the cost Of matte and still should be coated, in my opinion.

routlaw

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2020, 12:19:07 pm »

Yes, I have tried every way imaginable to roll varnish onto prints, but like you much prefer the HVLP technique. Again at this altitude, at these elevations, with 10-20% humidity water based finishes dry extremely quick and FWIW the thinner they are the quicker they dry from my experience. This has been discussed ad nauseam in other forums many years ago. The other issue regarding rolling varnish that has not mentioned is, the ink can and will come off during the process. Those high density round foam rollers will start to absorb some of the ink during the process. Not sure I ever noticed a major change in the print itself but the fact the roller absorbed some of the ink alarmed me. In any case I abandoned rolling many years ago and went with HVLP method which is far superior IMHO.

Have you tried really light coats and I mean light? The biggest issue with roll on varnish is over coating. After the first light coat let it dry and then coat again.
I know there are many videos that show varnishing technique. Way too many put much more varnish than is required. Same with spraying, light coats.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2020, 12:44:22 pm »

In any case I abandoned rolling many years ago and went with HVLP method which is far superior IMHO.

Undoubtedly superior. But much more expensive, difficult and specifically excluded as viable in the OP's use case.

My results mirror yours regarding roller application, but I have managed to overcome all of them.  I've made a few dozen canvases, all 30X40 or larger using wood glue and a roller with no "archival" damage apparent in twenty years. 

YMMV, as may Jeremy's.
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Garnick

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2020, 12:50:33 pm »

Have you tried really light coats and I mean light? The biggest issue with roll on varnish is over coating. After the first light coat let it dry and then coat again.
I know there are many videos that show varnishing technique. Way too many put much more varnish than is required. Same with spraying, light coats.

I couldn't agree more.  Light coats are the way to go.  Since 2008 I've been using the Breathing Color Brillance Chromata White canvas with excellent results.  When I first started printing canvas was I was using one of the Premier Art Canvases.  I also used their Eco-PrintShield coating with great success.  Later I switched over the BC Chromata White matte canvas and still use the PrintShield Coating rolled on.  It's very easy to use with a high density foam roller.  I've rolled it on canvases as large as 40x60 and larger with no issues.  I'm sure a proper spray booth and sprayer would certainly be more efficient, but for me the cost of that sort of setup was and is beyond my budget.  Especially now, when I'm not doing as much printing as previously, canvas or otherwise.  With the PrintShield coating the first and second coats are Satin.  For the final coat I use either Satin or a Satin and Gloss mix 50/50.  None of my customers ever want the full gloss finish and I don't like it for my own work either, so the mix fits very well.

Just my 2ยข worth - CDN  :)  ;)         
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mearussi

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Re: Breathing Color Crystalline
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2020, 12:34:58 am »

Eco Print Shield is the best I've tried (so far). I much prefer it to either of BC's varnishes. Under "normal" temp and room humidity it takes around 15 minutes to dry. Three very light coats are recommended with each layer fully dried before applying the next. The recommend way to apply it is to use two rollers, one to apply the coat and the second dry one to remove any excess. This technique totally prevents any streaks or roller marks but is something of a pain.
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