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Author Topic: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test  (Read 5631 times)

JaapD

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2020, 06:33:18 am »

“I would love to have a back with just 60MP but the DR of the Alexa than 150MP.“

I’m sure you would, as the fat pixel Alexa is only 13MP. A modern PhaseOne back equipped with a 16 bit ADC should easily provide similar or better images with a single exposure, provided you set the ISO accordingly and resize the image in post to 13 MP.

One thing about expected dynamic range from 18% grey level till saturation level. This is mathematically 2.5 stops, noting more, nothing less. So if the camera realizes 3 stops then the sensor well saturation level scaled to the A/D converter is correctly incorporated. In case you’re wondering where all the remaining dynamic range lives, whether it is 7 or 10 stops, that is all below the 18% level.

Regards,
Jaap.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 06:56:42 am by JaapD »
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wellcome86

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2020, 08:48:47 am »

“I would love to have a back with just 60MP but the DR of the Alexa than 150MP.“

I’m sure you would, as the fat pixel Alexa is only 13MP. A modern PhaseOne back equipped with a 16 bit ADC should easily provide similar or better images with a single exposure, provided you set the ISO accordingly and resize the image in post to 13 MP.

One thing about expected dynamic range from 18% grey level till saturation level. This is mathematically 2.5 stops, noting more, nothing less. So if the camera realizes 3 stops then the sensor well saturation level scaled to the A/D converter is correctly incorporated. In case you’re wondering where all the remaining dynamic range lives, whether it is 7 or 10 stops, that is all below the 18% level.

Regards,
Jaap.

Hey Jaap,

Did you download my files? Please do that and have a look.

In my understanding an clipped pixel is an clipper pixel. If ist 1 pixel or 100. The amount of MP does not matter.
But when it comes to downsizing. Yes there it’s relevant. It makes sense when there is a need to reduce the noise. But downsizing can’t give you back clipped highlights. So therefore
the Alexa Sensor gets even more impressive for its age and DR and tech behind compared to the IQ3 100.

Please play around with files. It would be very interesting to know you opinion.
Please don’t judge the quantity of the pixels but the quality))

That would be really interesting.


Thx
Sebastian
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2020, 09:32:36 am »

HI,

yes the Arri uses dual read out of the sensor since the alexa was introduced in 2008, Up to 200 frames a second. I can confirm  from my experience of shooting a lot of features. I didn't come along any other camera yet that had really 14+ Stops of DR.
I was just wondering why there is such a difference between needs in Cinematography and Photography.
Both coming from an analog age where film had (has) the best DR possible. Resolution is important but I would love to have a back with just 60MP but the DR of the Alexa than 150MP.


Question for Doug:

How this Dual exposer works? Can it be use in handheld with moving objects? or just from the tripod and with static objects?

thanks

Here is some more info on the Dual Exposure option for the IQ4:

https://captureintegration.com/phase-one-labs-dual-exposure/

I have found the Dual exposure can handle slight motion (subject matter moving due to wind), much better than the Frame Averaging option.  The results I was able to get before the shut down in my state, were impressive.  I like what this option offers for my work.  Frame Averaging could not handle any subject matter movement, but offered excellent image quality.  Dual exposure also offers an huge range in exposure DR, and give the photographer an excellent starting point.  You would need to have a tripod for either frame averaging or Dual exposure. 

Paul C


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Paul Caldwell
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wellcome86

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2020, 12:29:02 pm »

Here is some more info on the Dual Exposure option for the IQ4:

https://captureintegration.com/phase-one-labs-dual-exposure/

I have found the Dual exposure can handle slight motion (subject matter moving due to wind), much better than the Frame Averaging option.  The results I was able to get before the shut down in my state, were impressive.  I like what this option offers for my work.  Frame Averaging could not handle any subject matter movement, but offered excellent image quality.  Dual exposure also offers an huge range in exposure DR, and give the photographer an excellent starting point.  You would need to have a tripod for either frame averaging or Dual exposure. 

Paul C

Hi Paul

Thanks for the info, that’s a bit of a disadvantage, if some motion is not possible.

Hm... it needs testing again.

So I guess ocean and waves are not possible??
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eronald

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2020, 07:28:53 pm »

One can probably process a  short clip from the Alexa and get super-resolution.

Edmund
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2020, 06:17:02 pm »

Hi Paul

Thanks for the info, that’s a bit of a disadvantage, if some motion is not possible.

Hm... it needs testing again.

So I guess ocean and waves are not possible??

That is a good question on Ocean waves.  I work with water all the time, but I am usually looking for the blurred effect, which I believe the dual exposure will work with.  However due to the current situation in the US, I have not been able to get out and test it at all.

Hopefully as time goes by, some more test shots can be posted.

Paul C
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wellcome86

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2020, 03:32:43 am »

That is a good question on Ocean waves.  I work with water all the time, but I am usually looking for the blurred effect, which I believe the dual exposure will work with.  However due to the current situation in the US, I have not been able to get out and test it at all.

Hopefully as time goes by, some more test shots can be posted.

Paul C

Hi Paul,

Thank you that would be so great to see.

all the best

Sebastian
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2020, 01:21:53 pm »

The most interesting thing for me is that with higher ISO you loose DR. that's a very strange thing for me.

You're joking, right? I mean, come on! Before getting all huffy and puffy, maybe, just maybe, you should educate yourself on the basics of camera sensors, noise issues like amplifier noise, read noise, pre- and post-amplifier noise, how noise impacts dynamic range, etc. etc.
For instance, you may want to read this thread: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=56906.40

I fully understand why Doug Petersen bowed out.
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wellcome86

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2020, 05:35:56 am »

You're joking, right? I mean, come on! Before getting all huffy and puffy, maybe, just maybe, you should educate yourself on the basics of camera sensors, noise issues like amplifier noise, read noise, pre- and post-amplifier noise, how noise impacts dynamic range, etc. etc.
For instance, you may want to read this thread: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=56906.40

I fully understand why Doug Petersen bowed out.

Im not joking, If you look at the Arri DR chart that I posted earlier? then you will understand what I mean by that.
I know enough about sensors and the noise ratio etc.

But how the still photography workflow works right now, is for me a bit foggy and strange. Nothing is Clear. Its guessing while shooting.
With the ARRI Alexa workflow or RED workflow its totally clear. I get my base ISO and the Company tells me how much head room I have . that's it. I take My light meter and know where my limits are. And I don't loose any DR when changing the ISO. and when I change the ISO the company tells me again how my DR looks like. I collect always the same data no matter what Iso I set.

with the Example of the IQ100. I go out in to the field, take my light meter and it says me a proper setting. But things are blown out because everything that has 18% grey and is 3 stops over is clipped. So what do I do? I make a series of shots to find the right exposure. that's not professional that's guessing by try and error.

With the Arri Im not guessing what the sensor will capture, I know it. So Im not putting any energy in the philosophy of the right exposure, I concentrate on the shot it self.


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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2020, 12:35:28 pm »

I know enough about sensors and the noise ratio etc.

But how the still photography workflow works right now, is for me a bit foggy and strange. Nothing is Clear. Its guessing while shooting.

I don't loose any DR when changing the ISO.

I collect always the same data no matter what Iso I set.

So Im not putting any energy in the philosophy of the right exposure, I concentrate on the shot it self.
I myself know next to nothing about anything, but... It's clear that you need to learn - a lot - about sensors, amplifiers, noise, etc. DR is not a constant, independent of ISO; headroom is not the same as DR; read up on it with an open mind; read the thread I linked to; read posts by experts like Andrew Rodney (digitaldog), Guillermo Luijk and others.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2020, 03:12:14 pm »

I go out in to the field, take my light meter and it says me a proper setting. But things are blown out because everything that has 18% grey and is 3 stops over is clipped. So what do I do?


Use a camera with a live histogram and/or zebras.

Jim

Frans Waterlander

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2020, 03:49:24 pm »

Use matrix metering and - if you are really into understanding the fine detail - use a program like Rawdigger to get a feel for how much headroom you have when using it. And, at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, learn to understand the difference between dynamic range/signal-to-noise-ratio and headroom.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2020, 02:21:23 am »

Hi,

The clue is that you use ISO 800 on the Arri and 100 on Phase One. Still cameras normally expose midtones like 3-3.5EV under saturation. Vid log video, it seems that higher ISO is used, which mostly means that the image is exposed say 6 EV below saturation.

Question is how the camera handles the intentional underexposure. If you expose at 800 ISO on a stills camera, chance is that the camera just multiplies the raw values with 8, throwing down DR. It is possible to shoot at 100 ISO, but underexpose 3 EV and push exposure 3EV in post. On an 'ISO less' camera the result would be the same as shooting at 800 ISO, but yielding 6EV of positive DR.

There may be an other factor. The pixels on the Arri may be larger. Per pixel, larger pixels will have higher DR than smaller pixels. The Arri is probably highly optimized for the intended image size, with antialiasing filters optimized for the requirements.

A stills camera is not optimized for motion. As an example, something like 40 MP is needed for 8K. If Arri has an 8K camera, the sensor is probably sized for 8K. The 8K image from the IQ 100 needs to be scaled down to 8K.

Stills and video are two different playing fields.

Best regards
Erik

Hi there,

Im a cinematographer and I'm searching a long time for a good still photography camera to jump from analog to digital but I'm just disappointed. What is your experience?
I made a practical Dynamic Range test with the best digital cameras available. Please judge by yourself and tell me if Im wrong. But the Phase One IQ3 100 has never ever 15 stops of dynamic range.


Cameras:

PHASE ONE IQ3 100 (2017)
- 35.000€
 - 8984x 6732
 - 15 Stops
 - IIQ 16 Bit Compressed RAW / around 120MB

VS

Arri Alexa LF ( Sensor technology age  2008)
- 30.000 € - 90.000 €
- 4448 x 3096
- 14 Stops +
- Uncompressed 12 Bit / ARRI RAW / 20,9 MB Per Frame


Pictures are shown in an logarithmic Curve ( Log C) instead of linear, so we can see what informations are stored in the frames.

IQ3100 VS ALEXA  -6 to +/-0



IQ3100 VS ALEXA +1 to +9



As you can see, with the PHASE ONE IQ3100 you already lose information when you just overexpose the image by 2 stops. Thats insane no? I thought that's best photo camera? Ok there is now the IQ4 150 but I doubt that the dynamic range improved.

My thoughts on that: I don't need 100MP if I can't overexpose by two stops or lets say it like that:  anything what has 18% grey can't be over exposed by 2 Stops.

By the way, film holds up to +9, not losing any information.

I'm open for discussions :)))

thanks
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2020, 12:54:44 pm »

Arri’s dual readout was there to circumvent the limitations of the 14 bit converter. At that time there was no sufficiently fast 16 bit converter available but nowadays there is, as applied by PhaseOne.

This is incorrect. It is not just a "dual readout". It is simultaneous dual gain readout from each pixel.

Arri's ALEV III Dual Gain Architecture sensor is designed to increase dynamic range and reduce noise by optimizing the signal amplification for both highlight and shadow for each pixel simultaneously, producing HDR images in a single exposure.

"The Dual Gain Architecture simultaneously provides two separate read-out paths from each pixel with different amplification. The first path contains the regular, highly amplified signal. The second path contains a signal with lower amplification to capture the information that is clipped in the first path. Both paths feed into the camera's A/D converters, delivering a 14-bit image for each path. These images are then combined into a single 16-bit high dynamic range image. This method enhances low light performance and prevents the highlights from being clipped, thereby significantly extending the dynamic range of the image."

https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/technology/alev-sensors

When physics professor Dr. Emil Martinec proposed this type of sensor design in 2008 it was just a theoretical hoped for advance in technology. Just two years later, Arri turned the theory into reality with the first Alexa in 2010.

"What one would like is to somehow be able to use ISO 100 to keep all the highlights, while at the same time using ISO 1600 to recover all the shadows. But how can one have two ISO settings at once? By having two separate amplifiers fed from the same sensor data, running in parallel. Suppose that the sensor signal is sent to two separate processing paths, each path an amplifier and an ADC, with one amplifier set to ISO 100 and the other to ISO 1600. The ISO 100 path keeps all the highlights but has noisy shadows; the ISO 1600 path loses the top four stops of highlights but has much better shadows. Quantizing each, one can then combine the image data in a manner similar to HDR processing to yield an image with all 14 stops that the sensor is capable of recording. What would the result look like? Well of course, no such camera is currently made, but one can get an idea of the possibilities by shooting two successive images, one at ISO 100 and another at ISO 1600, and combining the two"

"As an aside, now that one is recording all the data that the sensor has to give, there is no reason to have a variable ISO gain, just the fixed 100/1600 parallel channels (or whatever two fixed amplifications optimize the data extraction). The ISO setting can be put into metadata like white balance is, a suggestion from the camera's metering to the raw converter as to what exposure compensation to apply in order to develop the image. As discussed on page 3, so long as noise sufficiently exceeds quantization step, there is no difference between amplification in hardware during the capture process, and amplification after the fact during raw conversion."

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Emil Martinec/noise-p3a.html
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G_Allen

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2020, 03:58:14 pm »

The Alexa is a remarkable camera. I frequently work side-by-side on commercial film sets with the Alexa (with my Phase One or Mark IV), and it is difficult to achieve a similar look with stills cameras as to what comes straight out of the Alexa.
The Alexa produces a very attractive image in poor conditions and low light, and holds highlights better than anything I've seen.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100 VS Arri Alexa - Dynamic Range Test
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2020, 04:54:49 pm »

Hi,

Most sensors are not limited by ADC but by sensor DR. Sensor DR is full well capacity, divided by readout noise.

Cameras intended for photography have sensors designed for high resolutions and the pixel size often limits full well capacity to something like 50000 e-. I would guess that readout noise may be around 4e- at base ISO, that gives 50000/4 -> 12500 which converts into 13.6 EV, fairly typical of high end sensors. Covering 13.6 EV requires about 13 bits, so 14 bit representation is a perfect fit.

If you don't need high resolution and use a proper OLP filter it would be possible to use larger pixels. These larger pixels may have larger full well capacity, say like 200000 e-. Now, readout noise increases with pixel size, as it reduces the voltage swing caused by the captured electron charges.

If we assume that we have a 24x36 mm sensor with say 10 MP (that would be needed for 4K) we may have a full well capacity of say 200000 e-. We may assume that readout noise is still 4e-, although that would probably increase with larger pixels. But, with 4e- readout noise DR would be 50000, that is 15.6 EV. You may need 15 bits to handle that.

In reality, the increase in DR would be small, as you could bin four high resolution pixels into one. But that would make huge demands on the processing pipeline.

In the end, the Arri approach may make sense. But of course, we don't know how that implementation exactly works. Marketing speak often differs from reality.

The huge difference is that a video camera needs to scan the sensor at high rate. It is not possible to scan a 100 MP sensor at the same rate. But, the IQ3100 is intended to deliver 100 MP of detail at 1FPS while the Arri delivers like 12 MP detail at say 60 FPS.

So, the devices are very different animals. Doing a proper comparison of DR, I would guess that the IQ 3100MP would deliver around 14.5 EV of engineering DR. I would guess that the Arri would deliver something similar. But it would  deliver it at high FPS.

Best regards
Erik



This is incorrect. It is not just a "dual readout". It is simultaneous dual gain readout from each pixel.

Arri's ALEV III Dual Gain Architecture sensor is designed to increase dynamic range and reduce noise by optimizing the signal amplification for both highlight and shadow for each pixel simultaneously, producing HDR images in a single exposure.

"The Dual Gain Architecture simultaneously provides two separate read-out paths from each pixel with different amplification. The first path contains the regular, highly amplified signal. The second path contains a signal with lower amplification to capture the information that is clipped in the first path. Both paths feed into the camera's A/D converters, delivering a 14-bit image for each path. These images are then combined into a single 16-bit high dynamic range image. This method enhances low light performance and prevents the highlights from being clipped, thereby significantly extending the dynamic range of the image."

https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/technology/alev-sensors

When physics professor Dr. Emil Martinec proposed this type of sensor design in 2008 it was just a theoretical hoped for advance in technology. Just two years later, Arri turned the theory into reality with the first Alexa in 2010.

"What one would like is to somehow be able to use ISO 100 to keep all the highlights, while at the same time using ISO 1600 to recover all the shadows. But how can one have two ISO settings at once? By having two separate amplifiers fed from the same sensor data, running in parallel. Suppose that the sensor signal is sent to two separate processing paths, each path an amplifier and an ADC, with one amplifier set to ISO 100 and the other to ISO 1600. The ISO 100 path keeps all the highlights but has noisy shadows; the ISO 1600 path loses the top four stops of highlights but has much better shadows. Quantizing each, one can then combine the image data in a manner similar to HDR processing to yield an image with all 14 stops that the sensor is capable of recording. What would the result look like? Well of course, no such camera is currently made, but one can get an idea of the possibilities by shooting two successive images, one at ISO 100 and another at ISO 1600, and combining the two"

"As an aside, now that one is recording all the data that the sensor has to give, there is no reason to have a variable ISO gain, just the fixed 100/1600 parallel channels (or whatever two fixed amplifications optimize the data extraction). The ISO setting can be put into metadata like white balance is, a suggestion from the camera's metering to the raw converter as to what exposure compensation to apply in order to develop the image. As discussed on page 3, so long as noise sufficiently exceeds quantization step, there is no difference between amplification in hardware during the capture process, and amplification after the fact during raw conversion."

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Emil Martinec/noise-p3a.html
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